• #Calexit Californians want to exit the U.S. after Trump’s presidential win
    217 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Samiam22;51345662]Going to preface that I don't actually know that much about California, but knowing that they're a huge economy, have a lot of people, and give more money in tax than they take is grounds enough to believe that a secession movement would actually be able to start somewhat. I am also going to assume that any secession they do will be through some kind of democratic means, at least initially, because military force is obviously not going to work. You could compare to Scotland. I doubt that it was Scotland's intention to complete cut off all trade ties to the rest of Britain if it had successfully seceded. Rather, enough of them felt unfairly shackled by Britain's laws on them that they thought succession would have been an overall improvement. Going on the natural resource thing, if we suppose that the US would be worse off with California leaving due to the deficit in tax money that it would make, I suppose you have a point that the US would make biased trade deals because they knew they could get away with it, but the US as a whole isn't in terribly great financial straits, and I don't think it's too big a stretch to assume that they would accept California money for natural resources. The fact that you mention the US being a nuclear superpower is a little weird to me. Are you trying to imply that California would be nuked for having the gall to attempt to secede? That's a little crazy. As is the mention of a civil war. I don't think that American citizens would literally kill their former countrymen, because that would do a hell of a lot more damage than any Californian secession ever could. To me, it seems that despite California being immensely valuable, they are forced to remain in a country with a president they did not agree with and as a result, the residents feel powerless and taken advantage of. Pretty understandable, in my opinion. Also, on the topic of Texas secession, I wouldn't support it, but I don't think I would condemn it either. If they had enough democratic backing to legitimately want to secede, then they should be able to.[/QUOTE] Okay, so the biggest thing here is, there are a lot of things California would have to do in order to secede. Truthfully, this wouldn't happened because the National Guard just wouldn't let it slide at all, but in a imaginary world where dreams come true, then let's say they did secede. That would cause quite the shock wave across the states and possibly the world. There's a thing that people don't get, and that is no matter what people say, we're all fish in a small ocean filled with sharks. Before I even touch California's issues, let's lay out what would occur in the States. The biggest thing is they would need to reinvent the way they vote and modify the Legislative branch, and find other means to resources we have. Truthfully, not all that much nowadays, produce possibly, but there are plenty of other states with massive farms. New trade routes would have to be established to go around us, depending on if Oregon and Washington follow suit too (which is not very likely). There are other means of transporting any products nowadays, so that's not too troublesome. But nonetheless that would be a pain for other countries. Moving on, it's a likely scenario that the U.S. military would pull out of there completely, possibly including the National Guard. So that would strip us of our defense. We would have to train an entire army to protect our new country, not to mention they probably wanted to get paid to do it. You could do a militia, but I really doubt we have THAT many dedicated people. We were also need Air Defenses and Naval Defenses to deter other countries who many want to attack us. Most likely, we would have to have to build tanks and airplanes to accommodate for this or purchase the equipment, in which if you look at other countries' armies, funding it high or low will yield different results. We don't want a weak military, but at the same time, not all of our so call economy can be put into it. Now with resources, the biggest issue we have is water. California doesn't nearly produce enough water to sustain itself, hence why we get water elsewhere. Many could argue we could start purifying salt water. But as studies show, it's not cheap, far from it. We would have to dump a lot of money into the funding of that if we wanted to do that. We would be better off trading for water. Then comes in another problem. We can't really base our economy on the U.S. Dollar, and if we were to make our own currency, it would next to worthless. So all that supposed money coming to us? Is really from trade from other countries coming through us and our ports. Some of it is other companies money, the only thing we get are really the trade, tax and federal money. There is also money generated other ways, but I'm only trying to scratch the surface. Leaving the States would cause us to lose all of that trade, and possibly deprive California rather quickly, considering the population is the largest in the states. So all of that money we're using, is still the United States money. We would still have to deal with the States ultimately. This would also defeat the purpose of leaving in the first place, because we would still have to deal with the states. There's also the notion that the United States decides to say fuck you, and take us all back by force. Considering the possible largest size of California's presumed military, we wouldn't really stand any chance, and we would just be back at square one, except with a lot less people now. That is not to say they would do that, but that is unfortunately a possibility you have to look at when you're starting out as a country, as history has shown us this has happened before, mainly with Britain getting more than pissed that we cut them off. One of the biggest elephant in the room though, is getting up and running as our own country. We would need a new set of laws, we would have to draft how everything is going to work politically, judicially, and legislatively. There are many things for us to become, it could be a democracy, a monarchy, a Communist state, a dictatorship, or possibly even a mix of different types of governments. Going in without any sort of game plan is how the United States almost destroyed itself back in the late 18th century, when the country was just starting out. It took a long time for the United States to get where they are at. We as people of California would have to be prepared to outlast anything that might come at us, internally and externally. Last and not least, there's also the chance that we may even come to be. The San Andreas fault, which is one of the major ones, in which it has shown it's destructive power in the past, can possibly either divide us completely, sink us into the ground, or simply cut us off from the states entirely. This is beyond a danger, this could spell the end of California as it's own country rather quickly. We would have to find a way to prevent this or prepare for it. The damages from this happening would be cost us an astronomical amount of money, and not to mention the lives that could be lost. In conclusion, there are not enough rewards for all the risks to take from both sides. This is also never possible in the first place since we can't legally leave the states without the National Guard already stopping it. History has shown we outlast the worst so far, from the Bush Administration period to the Civil War. Trump being elected president is far from the end of the world. I've said already that Trump does not wield absolute power. People need to remember we have Congress and the Supreme Court of Justice to regulate anything that Trump wants to put out. In fact, it's more likely that some of the things Trump wants to even do, we would need to call a vote for and it would need to be approved first. So people need to relax, especially those in California.
[QUOTE=phygon;51349542]Why are you getting mad that I pointed out that california's voters votes aren't worth very little? I didn't imply that other states shouldn't change as well. [editline]10th November 2016[/editline] Enjoy having your economy be totally fucked when ours explodes[/QUOTE] because those other states are the ones who got laughed at before for trying to leave
[QUOTE=notlabbet;51347986]All these people saying "where you gonna get water??" Water in california comes from in state dummies, from the Serria nevadas (which are in California) they pump that water down hundreds of miles to Los Angeles. I don't know why people think we pump it from out of state. Most water is local anyways, from local resivoirs and watersheds.[/QUOTE]Surely the water doesn't come from Lake Mead, where California is [url=http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-20140620-column.html]sucking up everything[/url] and draining the [I]Nevadan[/I] reservoir... right? Or how about your electricity? You need that to get your water! Remember when border security was the top fucking issue and LA threatened to boycott the [url=http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/19/arizona-official-threatens-cut-los-angeles-power-payback-boycott.html]people who keep the lights on?[/url] Your state is clearly full of idiots, so I can understand how that got lost in the haze of stupidity.
[QUOTE=A_Pigeon;51349751]because those other states are the ones who got laughed at before for trying to leave[/QUOTE] I don't particularly see why that's relevant to complaining about how much a vote is worth. I'm not saying that california should exit the union, I was just bitching about how our votes carry little comparative weight. [editline]10th November 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;51350067]Surely the water doesn't come from Lake Mead, where California is [url=http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-20140620-column.html]sucking up everything[/url] and draining the [I]Nevadan[/I] reservoir... right? Or how about your electricity? You need that to get your water! Remember when border security was the top fucking issue and LA threatened to boycott the [url=http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/19/arizona-official-threatens-cut-los-angeles-power-payback-boycott.html]people who keep the lights on?[/url] [/QUOTE] We're not "sucking it up", we [I]buy[/I] the water. [quote]Your state is clearly full of idiots, so I can understand how that got lost in the haze of stupidity.[/quote] Clearly not, seeing as we're the world's 6th biggest economy
[QUOTE=phygon;51350145]We're not "sucking it up", we [I]buy[/I] the water.[/QUOTE]I wasn't aware that financial purchases violated the most basic laws of the universe and magically created water, clearly California is the heir to Atlantis and is a land of wondrous things. [QUOTE]Clearly not, seeing as we're the world's 6th biggest economy[/QUOTE]I wish you could appreciate how ironic this response is, thank you so very much for proving my point.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;51350190]I wasn't aware that financial purchases violated the most basic laws of the universe and magically created water, clearly California is the heir to Atlantis and is a land of wondrous things.[/quote] What? Your post implied that the water was given to us, so I corrected you. [quote] I wish you could appreciate how ironic this response is, thank you so very much for proving my point.[/QUOTE] It's not really ironic at all. Why do you have such a hard-on for California?
[QUOTE=phygon;51350212]What? Your post implied that the water was given to us, so I corrected you.[/QUOTE]I don't know how "sucking up" could imply anything other than [B]use and consumption.[/B] You didn't correct anything, you just rushed in without paying attention. [QUOTE]It's not really ironic at all. Why do you have such a hard-on for California?[/QUOTE]I don't. You're not at all that important, despite what you might think, so until your state is immediately relevant I forget it even exists.
[QUOTE=Destroyox;51349301]That might work actually and wouldn't have the problems that a State focused America would have. Are you a political science expert?[/QUOTE] Nah, haha. Politics and government just fascinate me a lot, and studying it is pretty much the closest thing that I have to a hobby. But yes I have actually studied politics at university. And that was in the Business and Law School, not the Arts School.
[QUOTE=TheDestroyerOfall;51345452]I don't think so. The east takes most of our funding. we could do it and we could also become socialized and have our own healthcare, nuclear, and other sectors reborn.[/QUOTE] Good luck with that drought, wildfires, and the super earthquake to come.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;51350243]I don't know how "sucking up" could imply anything other than [B]use and consumption.[/B] You didn't correct anything, you just rushed in without paying attention.[/quote] Not really. See, there's this thing called context. [Quote] I don't. You're not at all that important, despite what you might think, so until your state is immediately relevant I forget it even exists.[/QUOTE] Listen, if you want to feed your ego or whatever by denying that California is important to the US, that's fine. You're just objectively wrong. Why are you even getting so butt hurt over California being important
Yes! Splitting from the USA will totally help things, the democrats didn't need their 55 electoral votes anyway! I understand that Trump is definitely not by any stretch of the imagination favorable, but the country will only get worse if the left leaning states leave the union or all the left leaning people leave the country. You don't fix it by running away from it.
[QUOTE=Mechanical43;51348863]it's so freaking funny to see americans go up in arms against california seceding, yet a whole bunch of you were for scotland's exit of the Union. even people who are considered themselves left-wing and would support the right of any other aspiring nation to become a country, but for california NO ITS ILLEGAL. what the fuck, do you people think the right to self-determination can be abrogated by a constitution? no it's a basic right for any people, so please, please stop uttering it with so much smugness, you are being quite stupid.[/QUOTE] Hey I say let them secede. They wouldn't last a year before collapsing under the weight of the drought, economic debt, and sanctions. Best of luck to them, but we won't take them back if they realize their mistake and come crawling back to us.
[QUOTE=Mechanical43;51348863]it's so freaking funny to see americans go up in arms against california seceding, yet a whole bunch of you were for scotland's exit of the Union. even people who are considered themselves left-wing and would support the right of any other aspiring nation to become a country, but for california NO ITS ILLEGAL. what the fuck, do you people think the right to self-determination can be abrogated by a constitution? no it's a basic right for any people, so please, please stop uttering it with so much smugness, you are being quite stupid.[/QUOTE] Just because you have a right does not mean you can exercise it without consequence, especially when the government doesn't recognize it. Never in my life would I have thought I'd see Californians of all fucking people be upset about the amount of say their state has in the government.
[QUOTE=phygon;51350428]Not really. See, there's this thing called context.[/QUOTE]Let's look at that context then, all we have to do is scroll up:[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;51350067]Surely the water doesn't come from Lake Mead, where California is [url=http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-20140620-column.html]sucking up everything[/url] and draining the [I]Nevadan[/I] reservoir... right?[/QUOTE]Context... context... Hmm, we're looking for anything that, and I'm quoting you here, "implied the water was given to us." [I]Sorry, I'm not seeing it.[/I] Let's look at the source that you didn't read because your fragile Californian sense of self-worth was under immediate threat:[quote]The signs of decline are impossible to miss. One is the wide white bathtub ring around Lake Mead, the reservoir behind Hoover Dam, showing the difference between its maximum level and today's. Lake Mead is currently at 40% of capacity, according to the latest figures from the U.S. Bureau of Reclamation, which operates the dam. At 1084.63 feet on Wednesday, it's a couple of feet above its lowest water level since it began filling in 1935.[/quote] Down [I]forty percent!?[/I] Glub glub glub, slurp slurp, sure seems like California is sucking it up since you have the lion's share of the water rights. Actually there's [I]nothing[/I] in the source that says California gets anything for free, and indeed, it seems like the many, many Californian farmers who own those rights might have to be paid hard cash for them. Which implies the rights have monetary value by the way, so evidently none of this is free for any party. Moving on. [QUOTE=phygon;51350428]Listen, if you want to feed your ego or whatever by denying that California is important to the US, that's fine.[/QUOTE]There's this, and then you finish with this: [QUOTE]Why are you even getting so butt hurt over California being important[/QUOTE]I'm the one with the ego problem? "Butt hurt over California being important," what the hell now? I said your state was chock full of idiots and you immediately reply with, "yueah but we have teh big econemy!!!" instead of, [I]oh, you know,[/I] bringing up how great your education system is. Something that would have at least been relevant to retort with. You became so incredibly offended that, gasp, [I]somebody[/I] doesn't like your state full of histrionic, vain, [I]vacuous[/I] people, that you had to respond with the biggest thing you could come up with.
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;51350510]Hey I say let them secede. They wouldn't last a year before collapsing under the weight of the drought, economic debt, and sanctions. Best of luck to them, but we won't take them back if they realize their mistake and come crawling back to us.[/QUOTE] Let's not be too hasty. I think we would be more than happy to accept a hypothetical post-seccession-re-integration. California is the biggest source of federal tax revenue in the nation.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;51350548]Let's look at that context then, all we have to do is scroll up:Context... context... Hmm, we're looking for anything that, and I'm quoting you here, "implied the water was given to us." [I]Sorry, I'm not seeing it.[/I] Let's look at the source that you didn't read because your fragile Californian sense of self-worth was under immediate threat: Down [I]forty percent!?[/I] Glub glub glub, slurp slurp, sure seems like California is sucking it up since you have the lion's share of the water rights. Actually there's [I]nothing[/I] in the source that says California gets anything for free, and indeed, it seems like the many, many Californian farmers who own those rights might have to be paid hard cash for them. Which implies the rights have monetary value by the way, so evidently none of this is free for any party. Moving on. There's this, and then you finish with this: I'm the one with the ego problem? "Butt hurt over California being important," what the hell now? I said your state was chock full of idiots and you immediately reply with, "yueah but we have teh big econemy!!!" instead of, [I]oh, you know,[/I] bringing up how great your education system is. Something that would have at least been relevant to retort with. You became so incredibly offended that, gasp, [I]somebody[/I] doesn't like your state full of histrionic, vain, [I]vacuous[/I] people, that you had to respond with the biggest thing you could come up with.[/QUOTE] I responded with something that shows the results of education. What is with your absolutely manic "gotcha" posts? It's like you're on crack. You take the absolute smallest thing (me inferring something correctly) and try to crack it open like it's this gigantic secret that you're exposing. You may be thinking that I'm not responding to the body of your post now, and you're absolutely right because it has no substance and all that you're doing is attempting to shred me for something that isn't even.... anything, really.
[QUOTE=Chonch;51350602]Let's not be too hasty. I think we would be more than happy to accept a hypothetical post-seccession-re-integration. California is the biggest source of federal tax revenue in the nation.[/QUOTE] If they wanted to re-integrate after seceding it would most likely be after they fucked themselves up big time and come running back to us under more debt than when they left. Otherwise there is no reason to believe they'd want to come back unless they had a face heel turn and went full Republican. If they want back into the union in a condition like that, wouldn't that debt or trouble carry over to the rest of us?
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;51350548]Let's look at that context then, all we have to do is scroll up:Context... context... Hmm, we're looking for anything that, and I'm quoting you here, "implied the water was given to us." [I]Sorry, I'm not seeing it.[/I] Let's look at the source that you didn't read because your fragile Californian sense of self-worth was under immediate threat: Down [I]forty percent!?[/I] Glub glub glub, slurp slurp, sure seems like California is sucking it up since you have the lion's share of the water rights. Actually there's [I]nothing[/I] in the source that says California gets anything for free, and indeed, it seems like the many, many Californian farmers who own those rights might have to be paid hard cash for them. Which implies the rights have monetary value by the way, so evidently none of this is free for any party. Moving on. There's this, and then you finish with this: I'm the one with the ego problem? "Butt hurt over California being important," what the hell now? I said your state was chock full of idiots and you immediately reply with, "yueah but we have teh big econemy!!!" instead of, [I]oh, you know,[/I] bringing up how great your education system is. Something that would have at least been relevant to retort with. You became so incredibly offended that, gasp, [I]somebody[/I] doesn't like your state full of histrionic, vain, [I]vacuous[/I] people, that you had to respond with the biggest thing you could come up with.[/QUOTE] It seems like you're speaking to a wall at this point. You're probably better off moving on to something worth debating.
[QUOTE=A_Pigeon;51349023]Same with Florida Same with Texas What makes cali so fucking magic?[/QUOTE] Texas yes since they're a Republican stronghold, but Florida is a swing state that makes it one of the few states where every single vote--regardless of party affiliation--actually does matter. In the current system, the power of a person's vote really isn't the ratio of a state's population to how many Electoral College votes the state has, it's if the state could reasonably swing either direction.
[QUOTE=DaMastez;51350678]Texas yes since they're a Republican stronghold, but Florida is a swing state that makes it one of the few states where every single vote--regardless of party affiliation--actually does matter. In the current system, the power of a person's vote really isn't the ratio of a state's population to how many Electoral College votes the state has, it's if the state could reasonably swing either direction.[/QUOTE] It's a combination of both and the status of the current election, whether it's a winner-takes-all state, how many people show up to vote, how the state is gerrymandered, how many people vote 3rd party, what 3rd party most people are voting for, and a bunch of other shit besides. It's a massive clusterfuck for no real reason.
[QUOTE=paul simon;51349053]Something is really, REALLY wrong with the US if several of you honestly think like this. Borderline psychopathic.[/QUOTE] Think what you want, but it really doesn't matter. Marines win battles, and you don't do that by being nice. That's why people who are soft don't and shouldn't join the military. Because the putting somebody without a spine into a combat zone will only get themselves and their comrades killed. Especially somewhere like the Marine Corps, which is our premier fighting force. All I'm saying is that if there was an [B]armed conflict[/B] between seceded California and us, it wouldn't last very long and they would suffer heavy losses. And most people that join the Marines are tough as hell who tend to be a little more on the conservative side. They don't buy into the bullshit "safe space" and PC stuff. They don't care about your feelings, and will not hesitate to tell you. You may not like them, me, or the military, but they're the ones who fight and die while you sit at your desk and talk shit. I've been all around the world and have seen and done things you couldn't imagine. I've done humanitarian operations in East Asia after super typhoons ripped it apart, I've done search and rescue after helicopter crashes, I've seen combat, and I've trained other nations militaries. What have you done with your life lately?
[QUOTE=italics560;51351593]Think what you want, but it really doesn't matter. Marines win battles, and you don't do that by being nice. That's why people who are soft don't and shouldn't join the military. Because the putting somebody without a spine into a combat zone will only get themselves and their comrades killed. Especially somewhere like the Marine Corps, which is our premier fighting force. All I'm saying is that if there was an [B]armed conflict[/B] between seceded California and us, it wouldn't last very long and they would suffer heavy losses. And most people that join the Marines are tough as hell who tend to be a little more on the conservative side. They don't buy into the bullshit "safe space" and PC stuff. They don't care about your feelings, and will not hesitate to tell you. You may not like them, me, or the military, but they're the ones who fight and die while you sit at your desk and talk shit. I've been all around the world and have seen and done things you couldn't imagine. I've done humanitarian operations in East Asia after super typhoons ripped it apart, I've done search and rescue after helicopter crashes, I've seen combat, and I've trained other nations militaries. What have you done with your life lately?[/QUOTE] cool but being a jackhole doesn't earn respect I can think that active military are collectively worth respect but that doesn't mean I have to respect you lol I don't even know you and I don't really have to care I know plenty of members of the military who do good things and don't have to be a dick on the internet to prove it but I mean you do you, man [editline]10th November 2016[/editline] right now you just sound like that marine copy pasta guy
[QUOTE=italics560;51351593]Think what you want, but it really doesn't matter. Marines win battles, and you don't do that by being nice. That's why people who are soft don't and shouldn't join the military. Because the putting somebody without a spine into a combat zone will only get themselves and their comrades killed. Especially somewhere like the Marine Corps, which is our premier fighting force. All I'm saying is that if there was an [B]armed conflict[/B] between seceded California and us, it wouldn't last very long and they would suffer heavy losses. And most people that join the Marines are tough as hell who tend to be a little more on the conservative side. They don't buy into the bullshit "safe space" and PC stuff. They don't care about your feelings, and will not hesitate to tell you. You may not like them, me, or the military, but they're the ones who fight and die while you sit at your desk and talk shit. I've been all around the world and have seen and done things you couldn't imagine. I've done humanitarian operations in East Asia after super typhoons ripped it apart, I've done search and rescue after helicopter crashes, I've seen combat, and I've trained other nations militaries. What have you done with your life lately?[/QUOTE] You are making up some dumb scenario just so that you can tell us about how cold and cool you and your marine pals are, but you're just coming across as such an edgelord. Like, what's the point in even saying that you hate half the country and you wouldn't mind if they died? Why do you bring up humanitarian work? To balance out your hateful outburst? Your position has quite simply gone to your head. Classic.
Trump won 33% of the vote in California. Are people assuming because Clinton got 100% of the electoral college votes, she somehow won 100% of the vote there? Cali isn't going to secede with that many people being pro-Trump.
[QUOTE=italics560;51348365]Active duty US Marine here. If it came down to a fight between seceded Californians and US Marines, you'd last a couple of days at best before you'd surrender after watching all of your friends violently die. For real. Marines would have zero problem with it. We hate liberals, SJWs, and pretty much everybody that isn't a Marine.[/QUOTE] Muscles Are Required Intelligence Not Expected
[QUOTE=italics560;51351593] You may not like them, me, or the military, but they're the ones who fight and die while you sit at your desk and talk shit. I've been all around the world and have seen and done things you couldn't imagine. I've done humanitarian operations in East Asia after super typhoons ripped it apart, I've done search and rescue after helicopter crashes, I've seen combat, and I've trained other nations militaries. [B]What have you done with your life lately?[/B][/QUOTE] Well I certainly didn't admit that I wouldn't have a problem killing a bunch of recently-ex-US citizens you fucking whackjob
Great. Leave, and take your bullshit never-split 55 electoral votes with you. Getting tired of y'all swinging that around. But before you go, be fair to all the red counties and split the state up. It's high time you stop dictating the entire state's course on thin majority.
Good, we never needed you anyway. It's not like that would screw up the global economy or anything. I think it's this divisive attitude that is the root cause for a lot of our problems in America, and it's causing us to take more radical stances on issues.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;51351947]Trump won 33% of the vote in California. Are people assuming because Clinton got 100% of the electoral college votes, she somehow won 100% of the vote there? Cali isn't going to secede with that many people being pro-Trump.[/QUOTE] Kinda crossposting but a lot of people have been criticizing the electoral college system and have been written off as butthurt Clinton supporters, but I still think that is kinda fucked up from Trumps point of view.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;51351947]Trump won 33% of the vote in California. Are people assuming because Clinton got 100% of the electoral college votes, she somehow won 100% of the vote there? Cali isn't going to secede with that many people being pro-Trump.[/QUOTE] I looked at the result map on new york times and the vast majority of Clinton votes came from San Francisco, Los Angeles, and San Diego and their surrounding counties. Trump got all/most of the rural counties bordering Nevada and Oregon. Even in the cities he got quite a bit and even coming close in Orange County.
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