• Gay couple arrested for kissing outside Mormon church
    316 replies, posted
[QUOTE=stupid07er;16040313]OK lot's of people are saying this. The fact is, us Mormons pay tithing, 10% of our income, which goes to pay for our temples and buildings, and keeping them all running etc. So yes, while the church is tax-exempt, tax money isn't paying for anything, I can assure you.[/QUOTE] That doesn't matter, they are still tax exempt, so the American people are covering for them. It's a bunch of bullshit if we allow them to do whatever they want with people's rights and still not pay their share.
[QUOTE=thisispain;16040493]That doesn't matter, they are still tax exempt, so the American people are covering for them. It's a bunch of bullshit if we allow them to do whatever they want with people's rights and still not pay their share.[/QUOTE] So even though Mormon's paid for that land, and the buildings and plants and lights and the gardeners and everything, but are nice enough to make it open to the public, they can't set their own rules about it? I think not. If it was a city park, maintained by city workers who are paid from tax money and the land and everything came from tax money it'd be different. The whole tax exempt argument shouldn't have even been brought up, it doesn't fit the situation at all.
[QUOTE=stupid07er;16040700]So even though Mormon's paid for that land, and the buildings and plants and lights and the gardeners and everything, but are nice enough to make it open to the public, they can't set their own rules about it? I think not. If it was a city park, maintained by city workers who are paid from tax money and the land and everything came from tax money it'd be different. The whole tax exempt argument shouldn't have even been brought up, it doesn't fit the situation at all.[/QUOTE] Just because they own the land, it doesn't mean they can do whatever they want to anyone on that field. Especially if the people on that field are covering for the Mormon church. It doesn't matter if they pay for shit themselves or not, because they still are not paying into taxes which affect us. I mean, you really think the Mormon church would pay a little tax? No fucking way. I mean, they weren't kicked out of the premises, they were arrested. Is it really okay to be arrested just because an organization decides they don't like you? I'm still fucking pissed off at them for Prop 8. I know a shitload of people who are pissed off at Prop 8 too. Who knew engaged gay couples could be so angry?
[QUOTE=McSanchez;16026335]"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. " Leviticus 18:22[/QUOTE] The verses in Leviticus are part of a holiness code over 3000 years old. This book also bans tattoos, round haircuts, working on the Sabbath, wearing garments of mixed fabric, eating pork or shellfish, getting your fortune told, and touching the skin of a pig(football). In Hebrew, "abominations" (TO'EBAH) are behaviors that people in a certain time and place consider tasteless or offensive. To the Jews an abomination was not a law, not something evil like rape or murder forbidden by the Ten Commandments. It was a common behavior by non-Jews that Jews thought was displeasing to God. Jesus and Paul both said the holiness code in Leviticus does not pertain to Christian believers. [editline]03:57PM[/editline] [QUOTE=McSanchez;16026335]"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. " Leviticus 18:22[/QUOTE] The verses in Leviticus are part of a holiness code over 3000 years old. This book also bans tattoos, round haircuts, working on the Sabbath, wearing garments of mixed fabric, eating pork or shellfish, getting your fortune told, and touching the skin of a pig(football). In Hebrew, "abominations" (TO'EBAH) are behaviors that people in a certain time and place consider tasteless or offensive. To the Jews an abomination was not a law, not something evil like rape or murder forbidden by the Ten Commandments. It was a common behavior by non-Jews that Jews thought was displeasing to God. Jesus and Paul both said the holiness code in Leviticus does not pertain to Christian believers.
[QUOTE=stupid07er;16040313]OK lot's of people are saying this. The fact is, us Mormons pay tithing, 10% of our income, which goes to pay for our temples and buildings, and keeping them all running etc. So yes, while the church is tax-exempt, tax money isn't paying for anything, I can assure you. I guess in my opinion it comes down to this. If the couple really was making out, causing an obvious nuisance, defying security when they were asked to leave, then it was right they got arrested. If it was just holding hands and a few kisses then security probably shouldn't have stopped them, as there are plenty of straight couples who do that sort of thing and nothing happens. Heck, that's the #1 spot for Mormon's to get married, and there is definitely lots of kissing going on then! Guess we'll never know how it REALLY went down.[/QUOTE] Yes it is. Taxpayer money is filling that gap that the Mormon church isn't filling themselves. When a piece of land it licensed it is expected to be taxed. That goes into the local budget, that goes into estimates. The local government says "We have 50 lots being taxed at 5% or whatever, so we will have X amount of dollars to add to the local revenue." When that piece of land ISN'T taxed, there's a hole to fill in the local budget. They don't just discount that piece of land, it IS being taxed, just not by the church. the money being expected out of that church is taken out of the whole, even if it's just one penny out of your taxes that goes toward that gap, that's STILL more money than the church is paying. The local government doesn't just say "We have 50 lots to tax minus one." They say "We're getting the amount of money we would get from those 50 lots by whatever means necessary." Guess who gets to fill that hole. [editline]06:33PM[/editline] Even if NOBODY were paying the taxes, they are STILL a tax-exempt organization. That assumes they are doing something good for the whole and something the government can endorse. The government CANNOT endorse discrimination and bigotry. Either they clean up their act or they pay their taxes. It's the assumption that any tax-exempt organization is being endorsed by the government. That their practices are legitimate and acceptable. When you have a tax-exempt animal shelter, they are tax exempt because they take strays off the streets and use volunteers to find new homes for the animals, or euthanize them if it comes to that. This is a win-win for everyone, so the government endorses it by allowing them to shunt their taxes onto the public. When you have a CHURCH, and we'll forget about the blatant violations of the Separation of Church and State, when you have a CHURCH that actively discriminates on their property, that discrimination is being legitimized and accepted by the local government. That is absolutely unacceptable. Rationalize it however you want. They have the right to discriminate, but ONLY if they aren't discriminating at the expense of everyone else. They want to be bigots? That's fine. They can pay that same bigot tax everyone else pays.
This is one of the few threads in which I 100% agree with Lankist.
Well the Church asked them to leave. It's not like they arrested them on the spot. I'm not like against gays or anything, I'd just perfer if they didn't kiss or do anything in public.
[QUOTE=Boba_Fett;16043893]Well the Church asked them to leave. It's not like they arrested them on the spot. I'm not like against gays or anything, I'd just perfer if they didn't kiss or do anything in public.[/QUOTE] Tough shit. This is a free country. Nobody gives a fuck what you prefer and the cops most certainly can't enforce what you prefer. "Prefer" all you like, nobody is going to respect your asinine, bigoted and outdated preferences.
[QUOTE=T2L_Goose;16034524]When will shit like this be over. When will our society grow the fuck up[/QUOTE] When we stop caring about other peoples preferences, so never. Also thisispain banned?
[QUOTE=Saxon;16044174]When we stop caring about other peoples preferences, so never.[/quote] I've certainly stopped caring about yours or anyone else's so we're on our way! [quote]Also thisispain banned?[/QUOTE] He's on a Day Break.
[QUOTE=Boba_Fett;16043893]Well the Church asked them to leave. It's not like they arrested them on the spot. I'm not like against gays or anything, I'd just perfer if they didn't kiss or do anything in public.[/QUOTE] What if I said I prefer that straight people didn't kiss or do anything in public?
[QUOTE=PrismatexV0;16044375]What if I said I prefer that straight people didn't kiss or do anything in public?[/QUOTE] what do you mean thats hot are you gay or something
I hate arguing with thisispain, good thing he's not here :v: [QUOTE=thisispain;16040493]That doesn't matter, they are still tax exempt, so the American people are covering for them. It's a bunch of bullshit if we allow them to do whatever they want with people's rights and still not pay their share.[/QUOTE] Well, I'll be honest, I really don't see why churches are tax exempt in the first place, but to say that churches have no rights if they are tax exempt kinda nullifies the point of a church. For instance, in that temple, there are places no one is allowed, except on special occasions, like a sealing (wedding). Would you say that because they are tax exempt, they have to allow people to roam around breaking rules the church has set forth, barging into the middle of wedding? Being against homosexuality, while idiotic, is no more idiotic than all the other stupid things churches do. Also, the constitution says it will make no law respecting a religion bla bla bla. By saying what stupid rules they can and can't enforce if they are tax exempt, you are effectively respecting one religion over another. By saying that a religion can't disagree with homosexuality is basically saying that they can't freely exercise their beliefs. The whole tax exempt thing throws things out of wack here. I do think that the boy scouts program should allow gays/atheists to be scout leaders, but a church is different in that it isn't a secular organization, it was created with the express intent to have rules, ideas (whether you agree with them or not). What you guys are saying is not as extreme, but in the exact same vein as saying that the church should be forced to marry homosexuals inside their temple, just because they are tax exempt. (Just a note, this is not to say I'm against gay marriage; All for it) But maybe you still think that we should be able to do that. I'm not going to lie and say I know the laws and concepts attached to tax exemption. But I can say, though, that if a church isn't allowed to practice it's beliefs freely while under tax exemption, then there shouldn't be tax exemption for churches in the first place.
Except they don't let [B]anyone[/B] go into their special places. If this was a straight couple and they got kicked out as well, there wouldn't be an issue. If the straight couple was free to express affection but the gay couple wasn't, it's discrimination.
[QUOTE=ryandaniels;16044920] By saying what stupid rules they can and can't enforce if they are tax exempt, you are effectively respecting one religion over another. By saying that a religion can't disagree with homosexuality is basically saying that they can't freely exercise their beliefs.[/QUOTE] No. That's stupid and you are wrong. They can exercise their beliefs all they want on their private property when they pay the private property taxes everyone else has to pay. You aren't respecting one religion over another, you are respecting NO religion. You think we wouldn't be saying the same goddamn things about Jews or Muslims? That's retarded. [editline]07:56PM[/editline] [QUOTE=PrismatexV0;16044966]Except they don't let [B]anyone[/B] go into their special places. If this was a straight couple and they got kicked out as well, there wouldn't be an issue. If the straight couple was free to express affection but the gay couple wasn't, it's discrimination.[/QUOTE] Precisely. [editline]07:57PM[/editline] It's institutionalized bigotry.
[QUOTE=PrismatexV0;16044966]Except they don't let [B]anyone[/B] go into their special places. If this was a straight couple and they got kicked out as well, there wouldn't be an issue. If the straight couple was free to express affection but the gay couple wasn't, it's discrimination.[/QUOTE] Not the point. And "discrimination" isn't automatically illegal. Catholic churches don't have to let in devil worshipers. What you are basically saying, whether you realize it or not, is that churches are only allowed to have state approved beliefs.
[QUOTE=ryandaniels;16045021]Not the point. And "discrimination" isn't automatically illegal.[/QUOTE] It is if the government is endorsing those perpetrating the discrimination. [editline]07:59PM[/editline] [QUOTE=ryandaniels;16045021]What you are basically saying, whether you realize it or not, is that churches are only allowed to have state approved beliefs.[/QUOTE] No, you are illiterate. They can believe whatever the fuck they want UNLESS it comes on the taxpayer's dime. Taxes and the exemption thereof are supposed to be secular. [editline]08:01PM[/editline] You are ignoring the fact that they are being REWARDED on the taxpayer's dime for being bigots.
[QUOTE=Lankist;16044987]No. That's stupid and you are wrong. They can exercise their beliefs all they want on their private property when they pay the private property taxes everyone else has to pay. You aren't respecting one religion over another, you are respecting NO religion. You think we wouldn't be saying the same goddamn things about Jews or Muslims? That's retarded. [editline]07:56PM[/editline] Precisely. [editline]07:57PM[/editline] It's institutionalized bigotry.[/QUOTE] Ouch. Read: [quote=me] But maybe you still think that we should be able to do that. I'm not going to lie and say I know the laws and concepts attached to tax exemption. But I can say, though, that if a church isn't allowed to practice it's beliefs freely while under tax exemption, then there shouldn't be tax exemption for churches in the first place.[/QUOTE] If you think it's wrong for a church to discriminate against gays and be funded by the government, then I won't disagree with you, all I'm asking is why on earth are we funding churches at all? And that isn't really rhetorical, I'm saying churches should stop getting tax exemptions.
We aren't funding churches, we are walking the bullshit line between funding and taxing. On paper they aren't being funded but aren't being taxed either. In reality, even if you ignore the fact that local government just collects the church's taxes from everyone else, their bigotry is being institutionalized. Meaning legitimized. Meaning the government KNOWS they are discriminating, KNOWS that it's both unethical and unconstitutional for them to support a bigoted organization, but ignores it completely for the rationalization that they aren't funding them either. Fact of the matter is, the only reason churches aren't taxed is because there aren't any presidents, congressmen or governors that I know of who are openly atheist, homosexual or even deist. They are representing the majority in complete defiance to their duty to protect the minority from the abuses of the majority. All because, hey, the MAJORITY of people in this country are Christian and therefore don't have anything against discrimination against gays, therefore we'll pretend there isn't a problem. It all goes back to the fatal flaw in our democracy. Civil rights issues. If a civil rights issue could be fixed in a democracy there would be no civil rights issue to begin with.
Can't tell if you agreeing or still arguing with me, but I had and idea while writing my last post. I sorta scratched the surface already, but I think this pretty much sums up my problem here. If you give tax breaks to one church and not another, and your decision is based on whether they support homosexuals/anything really, then you are giving a hand to a religious entity for supporting what the government wants. See the problem here? However, like I said, you are right that the government shouldn't be giving tax breaks to bigots. So, really the decision here is to give tax breaks to all churches and therefore fund bigotry, give money to churches that follow government belief regulations and quite obviously fuck with the 1st amendment, or just stop giving tax breaks to religious organizations. Also [QUOTE=Lankist;16045030]They can believe whatever the fuck they want UNLESS it comes on the taxpayer's dime. Taxes and the exemption thereof are supposed to be [B]secular[/B].[/QUOTE] We are talking about churches. The definition of non-secular.
What I'm saying is the only people who should get tax-breaks are people who aren't bigots, who genuinely deserve the tax breaks, who are contributing something legitimate to the community and somebody who isn't violating Constitutional rights provided their actions are legitimized through government support. You can call it discrimination all you want, it isn't. Tax breaks are a REWARD for doing something ethically acceptable and beneficial to the ENTIRE community. Taxation is not a PUNISHMENT. We aren't PUNISHING bigotry, we are REWARDING non-bigotry. [editline]08:28PM[/editline] [QUOTE=ryandaniels;16045260]We are talking about churches. The definition of non-secular.[/QUOTE] If a church can deliver a non-secular message without discriminating against members of the community on a religious basis I have absolutely no problem with them getting a tax break. Those churches, and they do exist, aren't a detriment. Fuck, I still attend church with my parents every Christmas. The members of the church actually know me because I've held theological and philosophical discussions with the "pastor," if you can call him that, while waiting for the service to start. They know I'm an Atheist and they're like "Your call, dude, we'll still give you free breakfast." I respect that shit. Fuck, I LIKE that shit. I don't buy into God, and I often disdain the message, but the mere fact that they're capable of sharing a mutual respect for personal choice warrants my absolute respect. That's the kind of shit we need to encourage, not this. Churches that do THAT are the ones that deserve rewards.
[QUOTE=Lankist;16045355]What I'm saying is the only people who should get tax-breaks are people who aren't bigots, who genuinely deserve the tax breaks, who are contributing something legitimate to the community and somebody who isn't violating Constitutional rights provided their actions are legitimized through government support. You can call it discrimination all you want, it isn't. Tax breaks are a REWARD for doing something ethically acceptable and beneficial to the ENTIRE community. Taxation is not a PUNISHMENT. We aren't PUNISHING bigotry, we are REWARDING non-bigotry. [editline]08:28PM[/editline] If a church can deliver a non-secular message without discriminating against members of the community on a religious basis I have absolutely no problem with them getting a tax break. Those churches, and they do exist, aren't a detriment. Fuck, I still attend church with my parents every Christmas. The members of the church actually know me because I've held theological and philosophical discussions with the "pastor," if you can call him that, while waiting for the service to start. They know I'm an Atheist and they're like "Your call, dude, we'll still give you free breakfast." I respect that shit. Fuck, I LIKE that shit. I don't buy into God, and I often disdain the message, but the mere fact that they're capable of sharing a mutual respect for personal choice warrants my absolute respect. That's the kind of shit we need to encourage, not this. Churches that do THAT are the ones that deserve rewards.[/QUOTE] Well, this argument is over then, cause I'm tired, we obviously aren't arguing what I thought we were arguing, and you just said something, that if I pursued, would eat up the rest of today and tomorrow, and possibly the next day, because you are quite obviously against beliefs in general. Can't say I blame you, but that's an argument for another day. Night
Oh right. Not in England.
I really think we SHOULD tax churches. Taking money from them isn't funding them at all.
[QUOTE=ryandaniels;16045573]because you are quite obviously against beliefs in general.[/QUOTE] Are you illiterate. [editline]09:01PM[/editline] There is no question mark because that was rhetorical. [editline]09:01PM[/editline] I think you are illiterate.
[QUOTE=Lankist;16045996]Are you illiterate. [editline]09:01PM[/editline] There is no question mark because that was rhetorical. [editline]09:01PM[/editline] I think you are illiterate.[/QUOTE] this is the kind of hindu bigotry that we need to protect our children from [editline]01:18AM[/editline] protect are cuntry vote republican
[QUOTE=ryandaniels;16045021]Not the point. And "discrimination" isn't automatically illegal. Catholic churches don't have to let in devil worshipers. What you are basically saying, whether you realize it or not, is that churches are only allowed to have state approved beliefs.[/QUOTE] They do, so long as they don't cause a disruption. [editline]06:31PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Lankist;16045355]If a church can deliver a non-secular message without discriminating against members of the community on a religious basis I have absolutely no problem with them getting a tax break. Those churches, and they do exist, aren't a detriment. Fuck, I still attend church with my parents every Christmas. The members of the church actually know me because I've held theological and philosophical discussions with the "pastor," if you can call him that, while waiting for the service to start. They know I'm an Atheist and they're like "Your call, dude, we'll still give you free breakfast." I respect that shit. Fuck, I LIKE that shit. I don't buy into God, and I often disdain the message, but the mere fact that they're capable of sharing a mutual respect for personal choice warrants my absolute respect. That's the kind of shit we need to encourage, not this. Churches that do THAT are the ones that deserve rewards.[/QUOTE] For the most part, mormons are like that as well, it's just gays they don't like. My dads extreemly active in his church, so i end up getting dragged along to all of the events, i'd say about 80% know i'm atheist and that i'll gointo discussions with just about anyone on anything. They don't really care, so long as i'm polite about it. Atleast, that's how it is out here in Cochella Vally, in SLC they might be stuck up pricks who disown someone for something like.
[QUOTE=Lankist;16045996]Are you illiterate. [editline]09:01PM[/editline] There is no question mark because that was rhetorical. [editline]09:01PM[/editline] I think you are illiterate.[/QUOTE] I edited out the second part because it sounded like I was trying to start an argument. I understand that you go to church on christmas, but that doesn't mean you support religion. You think it's alright for the government to support one religion over another one, which would suggest that you think religions are a joke, or at best, just a place to sooth peoples fears of death. To be honest, I assume you are like me and have friends(/family?) that are religious, and you don't have the heart to tell them that they are morons, because you love them and would have to be either a asshole or one hell of an atheist to want to prove to them that they are going nowhere. So, you don't like religion because it's spreads ideas about afterlife laced with bigotry, but you would be fine with it if they just stopped throwing in the additives. I agree with you. [I]However[/I], that said, the only thing worse than bigots with control of the afterlife is the government. Can't you see why it's wrong for the government to have their hands in organized religion? And before someone says it, yes, I realize I said I was going to bed; oh man you caught me, good job.
I think the government shouldn't reward bigotry and unconstitutionality, and should reward social progression and acceptance. Not this environmentalism bullshit or the ethnic tolerance shit, I mean not advocating the deaths of citizens of this country while profiting from their contributions to the nation via taxes. Fuck I think I should get paid for having actually READ the entire of the Constitution, the Articles of Confederation, the Confederate Constitution, the USAPATRIOT act, and other shit the people who voted on it never read. Then again I also think I should be emperor of the world. Trust me, I know what I'm doing. [editline]10:15PM[/editline] And I tell my parents they're dumb for being Christian ALL THE TIME I'm a fairly honest individual. That's how I was raised. [editline]10:15PM[/editline] Even though they're hardly observant
[QUOTE=ryandaniels;16045573]we obviously aren't arguing what I thought we were arguing,[/QUOTE] you obviously never debated with Lankist before.
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