Cologne Police Chief Condemns Sex Assaults on New Year's Eve
91 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;49464917]if we were biologically tuned to the idea that we are all one and the same, the concepts of war and conflict would never have existed. killing other people for the benefit of your own has been a far more basic facet of humanity than having love for all people has and probably will ever be.[/QUOTE]
there's a bit of a difference between killing and fighting because "I want that shit" or "I don't like that goon" and basic empathy. you can put aside empathy when you dehumanise those who you want to fight, it's a common propaganda tactic for that reason. we do it all the time, ISIS do it all the time, it's how we avoid empathising. and scarily common tactic used in discussions about this crisis.
but these people aren't "the enemy", they are just people from another country. they still experience the same basic emotions as us, have aspirations that don't involve dismantling the west camp by camp, friends, etc. there's no reason to avoid having even a mote of empathy with these particular people because we can communicate with each other than we aren't a threat to each other (and statistically, we aren't, much like any population there are criminals, but you don't call for the deportation of "your kind" in response to that, you fucking handle it like reasonable humans).
[QUOTE=hexpunK;49464973]there's a bit of a difference between killing and fighting because "I want that shit" or "I don't like that goon" and basic empathy. you can put aside empathy when you dehumanise those who you want to fight, it's a common propaganda tactic for that reason. we do it all the time, ISIS do it all the time, it's how we avoid empathising. and scarily common tactic used in discussions about this crisis.
but these people aren't "the enemy", they are just people from another country. they still experience the same basic emotions as us, have aspirations that don't involve dismantling the west camp by camp, friends, etc. there's no reason to avoid having even a mote of empathy with these particular people because we can communicate with each other than we aren't a threat to each other (and statistically, we aren't, much like any population there are criminals, but you don't call for the deportation of "your kind" in response to that, you fucking handle it like reasonable humans).[/QUOTE]
i agree 100% with you. i just hope you recognize that this point of view comes from being brought up in a culture and surrounded by people which recognize this. it is not intrinsic knowledge. had you been born in a different culture in a different time, you would not hold these philosophies unless that culture held them as well.
speaking only of western culture, the idea of empathizing with every human is fairly recent as an ideal held by masses of people. i would go as far to say that it holds more empathy in general today than in most of its history. we have many people who empathize with animals to such a degree that they refuse to consume any animal products due to a wish to not harm them, which would be nearly unthinkable throughout most of time. it seems to me that the biggest reasons this has happened is because communication technology has massively improved and the horrendous loss of life from WWI WWII, and the Holocaust made us value human lives far moreso than we had before.
[editline]5th January 2016[/editline]
i just don't hold any illusion that how i think is how a blank slate human would think
[editline]5th January 2016[/editline]
your idea of "reasonable human" stems directly from Greco-Roman and Christian-influenced philosophies and ideas of reason and is not the natural state of the human mind
[editline]5th January 2016[/editline]
you yourself are using dehumanizing tactics by calling it "basic human empathy" and saying "like reasonable humans". while nowhere near as severe as those used by people trying to kill other people, there is still the implication that people who hold those ideas and opinions that you heavily disagree with are less human than you are because of those ideas and opinions. otherwise, why call it "basic"? it isn't like you think they are animals but it is far easier to disagree with people and claim them to be in the wrong when you, even if ever-so-slightly, believe they are wrong to something you believe is core to what it means to be human.
[QUOTE=Knurr;49461722]Europe desperately needs a law for free access to personal gun. Seems like the Police insitution can't provide safety. And I'm sure lots of girls would love to carry some direct justice tool in their handbag.
Of course no left-winged government will ever allow for so much freedom for citizen.[/QUOTE]
Mace or taser yeah, but guns? No, the EU is no place for them and I hope it never will be.
[QUOTE=jamzzster;49467996]Mace or taser yeah, but guns? No, the EU is no place for them and I hope it never will be.[/QUOTE]
Look up gun laws and ownership outside the UK, you're in for a surprise.
[QUOTE=jimhowl33t;49468217]Look up gun laws and ownership outside the UK, you're in for a surprise.[/QUOTE]
Well, I am quite surprised. Glad I live in the UK now, I have a fear of guns and people owning them
[QUOTE=jamzzster;49469014]Well, I am quite surprised. Glad I live in the UK now, I have a fear of guns and people owning them[/QUOTE]
But many of those are safer than the UK
[QUOTE=soulharvester;49464754]Edit: Also I'm a moderate, I despise both parties to be perfectly honest because they both play the system in ways I simply can't agree with, There's policies on both sides that I like, and policies on both sides that I dislike. I'm sorry if you think someone being critical of leftist policy automatically makes them a "Right-wing lunatic", but that fault is with you, not with me. If the right wing was actually in charge and doing retarded things, guess what, I'd be right there criticizing that too, but as long as it's the left in charge making awful decisions, you're going to have to listen to people criticize it, that's how it works.[/QUOTE]
I just think it's strange that everyone in this thread is criticizing the left like it was expected for 1,000 people to get together and rape women.
[QUOTE=Knurr;49461722]Europe desperately needs a law for free access to personal gun. Seems like the Police insitution can't provide safety. And I'm sure lots of girls would love to carry some direct justice tool in their handbag.
Of course no left-winged government will ever allow for so much freedom for citizen.[/QUOTE]
It's actually pretty easy to get a 9mm here in Germany, you need to be in a shooting club for one year and after that year you can get a certificate that states you have a "need" which allows you to buy pistols and ammo.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49475347]I just think it's strange that everyone in this thread is criticizing the left like it was expected for 1,000 people to get together and rape women.[/QUOTE]
We can't predict exactly how many people are going to do what where, but the left has been making every effort to downplay or ignore the very real threat to women's safety and freedom from these immigrants. There's been plenty of precedent and information to predict increased violence against women when you introduce concentrated immigration in these countries, yet the left has to be dragged kicking and screaming away from their soap boxes to even get them to start talking about the issues they're causing, let alone propose or work on real solutions.
I'm trying to understand why it occurred. Why would 1,000 people get together to rape women? Can those problems be analyzed? As it stands I look at it as a shitty event that happened for sure, but I'm trying to look at why as opposed to saying, "yup, immigration is bad." Maybe the reluctance for proper screening is bad. Maybe it really is saturation that is bad. I don't know. I don't want to be too quick with my diagnosis though.
As it stands I'm totally not in the know with immigration and I'm not taking sides - first I wanna know what the hell caused this.
It's not even that "immigration" is bad, it's that the way it's been handled is so ridiculously hands off that at this point Germany has virtually no way to control these groups peacefully anymore.
They took in hundreds of thousands of young men from cultures where women are treated like absolute trash, grouped them up, and let them loose, what do you expect to happen?
This is completely contrary to what you want in immigration policy, it's practically anti-integration. What needed to happen is that these groups needed to be spread thin amongst the peoples of Germany so that they were forced to interact primarily with natives of Germany, the primary way you integrate groups of people is to make them challenge what they view as the norm, and over time they will accept something a lot closer to their host countries views of what is the norm. But this only works if they have to regularly interact with peoples of the host country who are willing to help them understand the values shared by that country.
Do you think that's happening in that small village where Germany [url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3302090/They-ll-living-500-month-benefits-Tensions-rise-German-village-migrants-soon-outnumber-locals-seven-one-batch-arrivals-moan-s-no-Playstation-s-boring.html]dumped about 7 times the number of refugees than the locals[/URL] living there? I don't. It looks to me like Germany is setting up a perfect storm of conflict and racial tensions.
The key to doing this successfully in my opinion is to always make sure that local populations vastly outnumber the new comers, it forces them to assimilate or seek assistance. When you don't do this, you end up with the ghettos that have been springing up all over Europe which become hot beds of easily convertible extremists.
[QUOTE=AtomicWaffle;49455161]Oh...
It's one thing if it's a few people, but [I]1000?[/I] I'm struggling to come up with a reason as to how this could happen on such a scale, but without all of the facts it'd be hard to say something that didn't sound a bit knee-jerk and potentially racist to some.[/QUOTE]
Apparently it's an organised crime ring based in another city.
The police seems to know about around 1000 of their members, which begs the question why they didn't crack down on it yet.
[editline]7th January 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=soulharvester;49475597][...]
Do you think that's happening in that small village where Germany [url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3302090/They-ll-living-500-month-benefits-Tensions-rise-German-village-migrants-soon-outnumber-locals-seven-one-batch-arrivals-moan-s-no-Playstation-s-boring.html]dumped about 7 times the number of refugees than the locals[/URL] living there? I don't. It looks to me like Germany is setting up a perfect storm of conflict and racial tensions.
[...][/QUOTE]
The funny thing is: [URL="http://www.n24.de/n24/Nachrichten/Politik/d/7742144/wie-die-wutbuerger-lernten--fluechtlinge-zu-lieben.html"]That situation was completely defused after they arrived and the locals are super happy now.[/URL] ([URL="http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.n24.de%2Fn24%2FNachrichten%2FPolitik%2Fd%2F7742144%2Fwie-die-wutbuerger-lernten--fluechtlinge-zu-lieben.html"]English translation.[/URL])
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49475347]I just think it's strange that everyone in this thread is criticizing the left like it was expected for 1,000 people to get together and rape women.[/QUOTE]
But it was expected.
People have been warning about this type of shit happening for MONTHS now(you know, all those "bigots" and "racists"), do you really think it was hard to realize that when you bring a bunch of people over from countries that have horrible womens rights, and men with horrible views on women, that this type of shit happens?
Its only going to get worse. Expect another major terrorist attack in EU/USA from muslim terrorists before the end of March.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49475467]I'm trying to understand why it occurred. Why would 1,000 people get together to rape women? Can those problems be analyzed? As it stands I look at it as a shitty event that happened for sure, but I'm trying to look at why as opposed to saying, "yup, immigration is bad." Maybe the reluctance for proper screening is bad. Maybe it really is saturation that is bad. I don't know. I don't want to be too quick with my diagnosis though.
As it stands I'm totally not in the know with immigration and I'm not taking sides - first I wanna know what the hell caused this.[/QUOTE]
Afaik it wasn't the case that 1000 people "just got together to rape woman". It was more like that in a big group of people, some people of this group took the opportunity to molest woman. They did this so the woman were distracted while they took their valuables (like smartphones).
Sadly, I didn't find an english source yet. [URL="http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/uebergriffe-105.html"] Here's a german one:[/URL]
[quote=Translation]In New Year's Eve small groups have become detached from a group of around 1,000 men, who surrounded, molested and robbed women.[/quote]
[QUOTE=NoOneKnowsMe;49477669]Afaik it wasn't the case that 1000 people "just got together to rape woman". It was more like that in a big group of people, some people of this group took the opportunity to molest woman. They did this so the woman were distracted while they took their valuables (like smartphones).
Sadly, I didn't find an english source yet. [URL="http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/uebergriffe-105.html"] Here's a german one:[/URL][/QUOTE]
As per, the media are horrendously misreporting the actual goings on, being careful to word things in such a way to cause maximum fear and paranoia, when the reality is much less severe (though still of concern). Gotta sensationalise that disaster! Gotta get those views!
No reports of this I have come across from actual officials and eyewitness accounts make it out to be all 1,000 individuals molesting and stealing from people. Just pockets of people in that group taking advantage of the fact there's a fucking HUGE crowd about. Standard tactics for pickpockets and people attempting to molest others in public spaces really.
[editline]7th January 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;49476830]you know, all those "bigots" and "racists"[/QUOTE]
huh yeah, those "bigots" and "racists" who were totally never tarring every single person coming across the border as nothing more than human filth and parasites here to steal our women and rape our jobs.
People being called out for being racist shitheels were usually those who were [I]actually being racist by stereotyping every refugee as a problem causer[/I]. That sounds like a pretty fuckin fair accusation to me.
[QUOTE=DuCT;49464782]
You ARE delusional.[/QUOTE]
"It's their culture" should not apply to crimes. It's disgusting that people that believe in liberal ideas are allowing Muslims to be racist and sexist.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;49477987]huh yeah, those "bigots" and "racists" who were totally never tarring every single person coming across the border as nothing more than human filth and parasites here to steal our women and rape our jobs.
People being called out for being racist shitheels were usually those who were [I]actually being racist by stereotyping every refugee as a problem causer[/I]. That sounds like a pretty fuckin fair accusation to me.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, this is kind of my issue. I can totally understand the idea of trying to integrate better - hell I'd be on board for that as long as there's an actual effort to do so instead of then saying, "And that's why we can't bring them in. Close the borders." I don't get the all or nothing approach in politics. I hate two-sided debates.
[editline]7th January 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49478392]"It's their culture" should not apply to crimes. It's disgusting that people that believe in liberal ideas are allowing Muslims to be racist and sexist.[/QUOTE]
I honestly don't think liberals are saying this, though. Where are you hearing people say that? What I am hearing is an endgoal that people want to meet from both sides: either immigration or no immigration. I don't hear people saying, "We need to let them come over here and do whatever they want." I think you're suggesting that they're saying that with a focus on constructing what your image of a lefty is.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;49464596]
Exhibit A: a known right-wing poster calling basic human compassion and actually trying to help others "delusional" and claiming it incompatible with reality.[/QUOTE]
While I disagree that delusional ideals are part and parcel of the left side of the political spectrum, I agree with what someone else earlier in this thread said, that the nominally liberal and progressive governments in European countries seem to see the world as they wish it to be, rather than the world that is, and in doing so are making terribly poor policy decisions.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;49479585]While I disagree that delusional ideals are part and parcel of the left side of the political spectrum, I agree with what someone else earlier in this thread said, that the nominally liberal and progressive governments in European countries seem to see the world as they wish it to be, rather than the world that is, and in doing so are making terribly poor policy decisions.[/QUOTE]
I can agree with this. We can dream up a world that we want to live, and we absolutely definitely should. We need an ideal to work towards. However, an ideal is nothing without actually coming up with the means to work towards that ideal.
The difference is that I see a lot of people in this thread that straight up don't want to work towards any ideal and sound like they just want to say "no", claiming that that's how the world works without actually putting any effort into changing either. It's why both sides suck. The middle ground is work.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;49477987]As per, the media are horrendously misreporting the actual goings on, being careful to word things in such a way to cause maximum fear and paranoia, when the reality is much less severe (though still of concern). Gotta sensationalise that disaster! Gotta get those views!
No reports of this I have come across from actual officials and eyewitness accounts make it out to be all 1,000 individuals molesting and stealing from people. Just pockets of people in that group taking advantage of the fact there's a fucking HUGE crowd about. Standard tactics for pickpockets and people attempting to molest others in public spaces really.
[editline]7th January 2016[/editline]
huh yeah, those "bigots" and "racists" who were totally never tarring every single person coming across the border as nothing more than human filth and parasites here to steal our women and rape our jobs.
People being called out for being racist shitheels were usually those who were [I]actually being racist by stereotyping every refugee as a problem causer[/I]. That sounds like a pretty fuckin fair accusation to me.[/QUOTE]
Come on man, you should know I wasnt talking about the actual racists who I know exist. Thats why the quotes, I was taking about the non-racists who just saw what type of problems could come from this who would speak up.
Obviously the real racists are fucked, they do nothing but give them fuel while being racist.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49480116]The difference is that I see a lot of people in this thread that straight up don't want to work towards any ideal and sound like they just want to say "no", claiming that that's how the world works without actually putting any effort into changing either. It's why both sides suck. The middle ground is work.[/QUOTE]
I've said before that I've always thought a solution to the refugee crisis that involves letting them all into Europe was flawed.
It's my view that it would've been better for everyone to provide safe harbor for refugees in massive camps funded by NATO or the UN in turkey and or somewhere else throughout the middle east.
It would require fuck tons of money, yes. It would require lots of military and civilian aid, obviously. We would have to build infrastructure, clearly. But ultimately, it would help the refugees who need that help the most, that is, if the narrative is that we're trying to save the lives of Syrians stuck in a brutal conflict in their own country.
Ultimately you would build good will and have a legitimate reason to have military bases and occupation in the region, and it would be a starting point for actually creating a more stable middle-east.
What's been done is that instead of fixing problems where they are, we're now setting the precedent that if you don't like where you live, then you're welcome to go to Europe where you will be treated with free food, shelter, and medical care, which sounds really great, it does. But Europe can't afford to bring in everyone from conflicts near their borders and the middle east and support them, they're failing to integrate them, and they're giving people who weren't necessarily in harms way an excuse to get in rickety boats trying to cross the Mediterranean hope that they can lead a much better life in Europe, but that flow has to be controlled or it becomes unmanageable. Europe can't maintain this and the longer they keep this open border policy the worse it's going to get when they finally say "We can't take anymore.. sorry, but we're full.."
A lot of people also seem to have this misconception that just because Germany can support hundreds of thousands of migrants, that other countries throughout europe can too, but Germany is an economical power house while many other European countries are suffering economically, Eventually something's going to give and it's not going to be pretty when it does.
[QUOTE=soulharvester;49480266]I've said before that I've always thought a solution to the refugee crisis that involves letting them all into Europe was flawed.
It's my view that it would've been better for everyone to provide safe harbor for refugees in massive camps funded by NATO or the UN in turkey and or somewhere else throughout the middle east.
It would require fuck tons of money, yes. It would require lots of military and civilian aid, obviously. We would have to build infrastructure, clearly. But ultimately, it would help the refugees who need that help the most, that is, if the narrative is that we're trying to save the lives of Syrians stuck in a brutal conflict in their own country.
Ultimately you would build good will and have a legitimate reason to have military bases and occupation in the region, and it would be a starting point for actually creating a more stable middle-east.
What's been done is that instead of fixing problems where they are, we're now setting the precedent that if you don't like where you live, then you're welcome to go to Europe where you will be treated with free food, shelter, and medical care, which sounds really great, it does. But Europe can't afford to bring in everyone from conflicts near their borders and the middle east and support them, they're failing to integrate them, and they're giving people who weren't necessarily in harms way an excuse to get in rickety boats trying to cross the Mediterranean hope that they can lead a much better life in Europe, but that flow has to be controlled or it becomes unmanageable. Europe can't maintain this and the longer they keep this open border policy the worse it's going to get when they finally say "We can't take anymore.. sorry, but we're full.."
A lot of people also seem to have this misconception that just because Germany can support hundreds of thousands of migrants, that other countries throughout europe can too, but Germany is an economical power house while many other European countries are suffering economically, Eventually something's going to give and it's not going to be pretty when it does.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't have a problem with that because its still dealing with the situation as opposed to dismissal. I still don't think that immigration has to be ruled out entirely in that plan too - I think that both could compliment each other in specific portions.
A lot of the first page of this thread sounded closer to hate than the desire to fix anything, to be honest.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49480782]
A lot of the first page of this thread sounded closer to hate than the desire to fix anything, to be honest.[/QUOTE]
Of course it does, we're very emotional beings and right now lots of people in Europe feel betrayed, did you think France had a desire to "fix anything" when it immediately flew jets out to the middle east and started bombing shit in the wake of that attack? They lashed out because they were attacked.
People can't be expected to want to "fix" things for other groups of people when they feel like they're under attack. People need to feel reasonably safe before they can begin to empathize and help others, this is very simple stuff that fits rather well into [url=http://www.simplypsychology.org/maslow.html]Maslow's hierarchy of needs[/URL]. The west largely enjoys as a people being at the top of the hierarchy, with our bottom level needs fulfilled. This allows us to self actualize and try to make ourselves and others around us better. When they feel attacked though? They go back down to wanting their safety and security back very, very quickly.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;49480782]
A lot of the first page of this thread sounded closer to hate than the desire to fix anything, to be honest.[/QUOTE]
I see nothing wrong with people hating rapists and the people trying to justify their actions in the name of cultural tolerance.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49481026]I see nothing wrong with people hating rapists and the people trying to justify their actions in the name of cultural tolerance.[/QUOTE]
Remove yourself from any conversation of solutions in which your actions are going to be heavily influenced by your anger you cannot contain. To do otherwise is to be irrational. Bombs aren't rational.
That sounds okay at first but wouldn't the people angriest about a problem often have the highest stakes in it's solution?
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Righteous_indignation[/url]
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injustice[/url]
[QUOTE=soulharvester;49481263]That sounds okay at first but wouldn't the people angriest about a problem often have the highest stakes in it's solution?
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Righteous_indignation[/url]
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injustice[/url][/QUOTE]
I don't have a problem with anger but when it borders hate there's no point. Their thoughts are tainted. They shpuld opt into handing the reigns over to people who aren't going to act like a bull in a china shop.
There needs to be a better screening process, if there's any.
When you take people in mass from a country who's ideals include women being lower than dirt and where human rights violations run rampant it's not difficult to assume it's citizens might support those ideals.
[QUOTE=soulharvester;49480266]I've said before that I've always thought a solution to the refugee crisis that involves letting them all into Europe was flawed.
It's my view that it would've been better for everyone to provide safe harbor for refugees in massive camps funded by NATO or the UN in turkey and or somewhere else throughout the middle east.
It would require fuck tons of money, yes. It would require lots of military and civilian aid, obviously. We would have to build infrastructure, clearly. But ultimately, it would help the refugees who need that help the most, that is, if the narrative is that we're trying to save the lives of Syrians stuck in a brutal conflict in their own country.
Ultimately you would build good will and have a legitimate reason to have military bases and occupation in the region, and it would be a starting point for actually creating a more stable middle-east.
What's been done is that instead of fixing problems where they are, we're now setting the precedent that if you don't like where you live, then you're welcome to go to Europe where you will be treated with free food, shelter, and medical care, which sounds really great, it does. But Europe can't afford to bring in everyone from conflicts near their borders and the middle east and support them, they're failing to integrate them, and they're giving people who weren't necessarily in harms way an excuse to get in rickety boats trying to cross the Mediterranean hope that they can lead a much better life in Europe, but that flow has to be controlled or it becomes unmanageable. Europe can't maintain this and the longer they keep this open border policy the worse it's going to get when they finally say "We can't take anymore.. sorry, but we're full.."
A lot of people also seem to have this misconception that just because Germany can support hundreds of thousands of migrants, that other countries throughout europe can too, but Germany is an economical power house while many other European countries are suffering economically, Eventually something's going to give and it's not going to be pretty when it does.[/QUOTE]
You called out the left wing earlier in the thread. Problem with your plan, much of which I agree with, is that none of the right wing parties appear to do anything more than maybe say "we need this instead of this" with no actual conviction to help the refugees in any way. Currently I have the choice between a left wing that has been naive or a right wing that literally doesn't give a shit about anyone.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;49483202]You called out the left wing earlier in the thread. Problem with your plan, much of which I agree with, is that none of the right wing parties appear to do anything more than maybe say "we need this instead of this" with no actual conviction to help the refugees in any way. Currently I have the choice between a left wing that has been naive or a right wing that literally doesn't give a shit about anyone.[/QUOTE]
I really want a Republican government that [I]does[/I] things, but I can't so I opt into the more complicated route of liberalism. Republicans tend to represent corporations, though, who in turn don't give a shit about the lower class let alone refugees.
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