• California passes bill to license more drivers who are here illegally.
    114 replies, posted
I like how we're all concerned with the fact that everyone is immigrating to a country, and less concerned about why they're immigrating there. If the USA was a shithole, drug cartel ridden country with massive corruption, would you really be taking the side of the more stable, rich, slightly less corrupt world 'superpower' that doesn't want to let you partake in a better society without having to go through a process that many are unable to pass simply because they were born and raised in the wrong place? Is it really the fault of the oppressed, poor mexican family that they want to move to a better place? It's the problem of both countries, both the administration/government of them, and the people, in a way. There are much bigger problems that need to be tackled all over the world in order for immigration issues to be fixed in the many places there are immigration problems. There are some people that assume illegal immigrants are all lazy people that pay no taxes and get benefits and sell drugs. This isn't how the world works. They are immigrating due to more underlying problems that need to be fixed, people are looking for a quick fix like changing the immigration system; etc. While this may alleviate some of the stress on the system, it does not fix the underlying reasons, such as poverty, inequality, corruption, and the extremely varied levels of these around the world mixed with massive amounts of population booms and more transportation methods. It's a problem inherent in a global society and growing, I don't have a fix, but I don't think a simple immigration change will fix it.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;42196809]i dont believe in private property for that reason but i was pointing out that the country is not even private property in the first place[/QUOTE] well I'm coming over for sure now, I'll try and pick up a new fresh fedora for the party
[QUOTE=deltasquid;42193232]Even outside of nationalism and xenophobia, opening borders to everyone so they can become citizens merely by being on your soil is an administrative nightmare and will hilariously strain public services. And when I say hilarious I mean they'll be scrapped because they get abused like hell.[/QUOTE] i don't understand your rationale at all, public services exist because the public funds it if the public gets bigger, the infrastructure grows
[QUOTE=thisispain;42198982]i don't understand your rationale at all, public services exist because the public funds it if the public gets bigger, the infrastructure grows[/QUOTE] My guess is that he doesn't grasp the concept of taxes at all. Which most Mexicans with faked work permits actually pays in order to look more legitimate.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42197077]Difference being?[/QUOTE] your relationship to the property. if you want to know more read some proudhon or marx...or better yet: "Property, in its present form, is based on the antagonism of capital and wage labor..... To be a capitalist, is not only to have a purely personal, but a social status in production. Capital is a collective product, and only by the united action of many members, nay in the last resort, only by the united action of all members of society can it be set in motion. Capital is, therefore not personal, it is a social power. When, therefore, capital is converted into common property, into the property of all members of society, personal property is not thereby transformed into social property. It is only the social character of the property that is changed. It loses its class character."(communist manifesto) [QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;42197270]My entitlement. Go through the proper channels and respect our countries laws please. Yes, United States citizenship is hard to get, as it should be. Feel free to fuck off and go apply for Brazilian citizenship or any other country for that matter. Print more work visas, get people willing to work over here as soon as possible. If you want to work and follow the laws, then you deserve to receive every benefit that any US citizen has.[/QUOTE] i'm sorry i can't hear you over your middle class white privilege. [QUOTE=Shadaez;42198929]well I'm coming over for sure now, I'll try and pick up a new fresh fedora for the party[/QUOTE] make sure you grow out your neckbeard. can't have a fedora party without bitchin' neckbeards.
[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;42197270]Yes, United States citizenship is hard to get, as it should be. Feel free to fuck off and go apply for Brazilian citizenship or any other country for that matter.[/QUOTE] Why should it be? Oh are we and mexicans so inferior to you glorious americans that our fucking citizenship should be easier to get? Get off your high horse, you have no fucking clue what you're talking about [editline]15th September 2013[/editline] I'm legitimately offended that some people think it's as simple as that
[QUOTE=thisispain;42198982]i don't understand your rationale at all, public services exist because the public funds it if the public gets bigger, the infrastructure grows[/QUOTE] Fine, I'll give a real-life example then. Belgium used to allow you to become a citizen merely by being married to a Belgian or family of a Belgian. No strings attached. Cue massive amount of Belgian "citizens" living halfway across the world, having the right for unemployment subsidies and affordable health care. It was a shit system because you couldn't see the difference between a Moroccan living in Brussels for 25 years and working, paying taxes etc, and his brother who flew in from Morocco and chilled at home or worked in black while still getting subsidies. It was very easy to abuse or exploit, so we had to tune it down. I have no problem opening borders to everyone if we can. I'm all for removing borders between countries. But you can't expect to ramp it up to 11 from one day to another and then be surprised that the amount of people with rights to subsidies has increased while the workforce didn't increase as much. and that is a strain on public services. Essentially, Public gets bigger, infrastructure has trouble growing.
[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;42197270]Yes, United States citizenship is hard to get, as it should be.[/QUOTE] In 50 years when you have a massive elderly population and too few young people, your country will be literally begging for immigrants.
Is this for illegal mexicans only, or can a brit fly out to the US, miss his flight home and then go get a driving licence?
[QUOTE=deltasquid;42200294]I have no problem opening borders to everyone if we can. I'm all for removing borders between countries. But you can't expect to ramp it up to 11 from one day to another and then be surprised that the amount of people with rights to subsidies has increased while the workforce didn't increase as much. and that is a strain on public services. Essentially, Public gets bigger, infrastructure has trouble growing.[/QUOTE] The thing is that the immigration problem in the US has been there for a really long time, and all the while they haven't really been taking care of the whole thing very well. They could have started a long term process to make all this more viable decades ago, but instead they keep using the simple and more violent solutions.
[QUOTE=Lamar;42193033]yeah mayne, we're all ~citizens of the world~[/QUOTE] you know when overzealous principals discourage behavior in school that could literally only be good? that's you right now
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;42200593]The thing is that the immigration problem in the US has been there for a really long time, and all the while they haven't really been taking care of the whole thing very well. They could have started a long term process to make all this more viable decades ago, but instead they keep using the simple and more violent solutions.[/QUOTE] Americans care about one thing: Short term results. They want things fixed [I]now[/I], not some time in the future. And politicians are more than happy to give the image that they've fixed it now so long as they get elected next time (not caring about the time after that or after that).
I disagree with making illegals being allowed to drive at the same time I agree they shouldn't be fucking illegal unless they're like huge run away criminals from mexico lets not let run away serial murderers/major criminals/in etc but lets you know fix our shitty immigration system. [QUOTE=yawmwen;42196809]i dont believe in private property for that reason but i was pointing out that the country is not even private property in the first place[/QUOTE] lets please not bring this anarchist debate bullshit here please please
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;42199838]Why should it be? Oh are we and mexicans so inferior to you glorious americans that our fucking citizenship should be easier to get? Get off your high horse, you have no fucking clue what you're talking about [editline]15th September 2013[/editline] I'm legitimately offended that some people think it's as simple as that[/QUOTE] Please explain to me why you think people are entitled for US citizenship. Every country in this gay earth has a legal ways to become a citizen (in some cases it's almost impossible), why is the US the bad guy? Do you thinking having millions of unaccounted for illegal immigrants hurts or helps legal immigration? Oh and on the Brazilian citizenship. I wasn't implying it was easier, or that your country was inferior.
[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;42200756]Please explain to me why you think people are entitled for US citizenship. Every country in this gay earth has a legal ways to become a citizen (in some cases it's almost impossible), why is the US the bad guy? Do you thinking having millions of unaccounted for illegal immigrants hurts or helps legal immigration?[/QUOTE] Immigration founded this country and it made it extremely diverse, big, strong, wealthy, and very, very powerful. I seriously doubt it'll harm you that massively these days. this is why it should be far, easier to get legal and harder for illegals to get in
gee thanks California for giving these fucking illegals even more reason to move here. Appreciate it. The ones that actually TRY to get citizenship are good guys and can understand their plights but it'll just attract some more of the scum that don't do shit all to come here and expect to be taken care of by the government.
[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;42200756]Please explain to me why you think people are entitled for US citizenship. Every country in this gay earth has a legal ways to become a citizen (in some cases it's almost impossible), why is the US the bad guy? Do you thinking having millions of unaccounted for illegal immigrants hurts or helps legal immigration?[/QUOTE] when people are literally making rafts out of water bottles to enter the US i think there's probably something wrong with your immigration policy
You don't tell people who are there illegally that it's ok, we'll be nice to you now... [editline]15th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Cone;42200807]when people are literally making rafts out of water bottles to enter the US i think there's probably something wrong with your immigration policy[/QUOTE] Or just that they live somewhere that's kinda shitty and you're next door? See Africans and Malta/Spain.
[QUOTE=J!NX;42200777]Immigration founded this country and it made it extremely diverse, big, strong, wealthy, and very, very powerful. I seriously doubt it'll harm you that massively these days. this is why it should be far, easier to get legal and harder for illegals to get in[/QUOTE] No one is arguing the power of a determined working immigrant. They are invaluable to the US.
[QUOTE=Cooty;42200823]Or just that they live somewhere that's kinda shitty and you're next door? See Africans and Malta/Spain.[/QUOTE] if their country is really so shitty shouldn't you be [I]encouraging[/I] ease of immigration? they wouldn't have to come up with these ludicrous harebrained schemes if coming to your country was really just a matter of hopping the border
[QUOTE=Cone;42200871]if their country is really so shitty shouldn't you be [I]encouraging[/I] ease of immigration? they wouldn't have to come up with these ludicrous harebrained schemes if coming to your country was really just a matter of hopping the border[/QUOTE] Not if you don't want to pay for them. I dunno about the US, but in Europe people come so they can find a job but if they don't we have to pay welfare if they're legal immigrants. Voters don't want to pay for Africans to come and sponge off our state.
[QUOTE=Cone;42200807]when people are literally making rafts out of water bottles to enter the US i think there's probably something wrong with your immigration policy[/QUOTE] Yes, people are killing themselves crossing the border. The loss of life is horrible, and the conditions in Mexico are horrid. But its not the United States fault. If you want into the country safely, if you want a drivers license, if you want to vote, if you want government benefits you have to go through the legal process.
[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;42200908]Yes, people are killing themselves crossing the border. The loss of life is horrible, and the conditions in Mexico are horrid. But its not the United States fault. If you want into the country safely, if you want a drivers license, if you want to vote, if you want government benefits you have to go through the legal process.[/QUOTE] right but my point is that the legal process should be easier. don't be surprised that people aren't willing to wait six to eleven years in Mexico just for a thin chance to be able to leave their own country - you know how many problems Mexico has, so why do you still want to postpone the process when it can only lead to more people being killed by the Cartels or being forced to work for them?
[QUOTE=deltasquid;42200294] Cue massive amount of Belgian "citizens" living halfway across the world, having the right for unemployment subsidies and affordable health care. It was a shit system because you couldn't see the difference between a Moroccan living in Brussels for 25 years and working, paying taxes etc, and his brother who flew in from Morocco and chilled at home or worked in black while still getting subsidies. It was very easy to abuse or exploit, so we had to tune it down.[/QUOTE] belgium seems to be doing very fine in terms of welfare and healthcare, with a very healthy economy acc. to statistics so where's the trouble there? [editline]15th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;42200508]In 50 years when you have a massive elderly population and too few young people, your country will be literally begging for immigrants.[/QUOTE] like Scandinavian countries
[QUOTE=Kai-ryuu;42200786]gee thanks California for giving these fucking illegals even more reason to move here. Appreciate it. The ones that actually TRY to get citizenship are good guys and can understand their plights but it'll just attract some more of the scum that don't do shit all to come here and expect to be taken care of by the government.[/QUOTE] It must be hard to use your brain.
[QUOTE=frozensoda;42192774]Well OP they really only have two options at this point. One would be to pick them up at every possible chance and send them back across the border which is expensive, the other being let them stay and try to get them all to integrate into society. Otherwise you just have millions of people with no licence/insurance/social security number out there working, driving, and not paying taxes. I would like to see them all become citizens, at least on some level. I want them to pay taxes and fees like I have to. Sending them back really solves nothing because I'm sure a large percentage of them just come right back. It wastes so much money in manpower, and vehicles, and maintenance. Instead of creating another source of debt, we should be creating another source of income by allowing them to work and pay taxes like anyone else. I would also suggest that they are not allowed to receive welfare benefits for 2 years. I think that most of these people are just hardworking Mexican people coming here for a chance at freedom and a better life. I think so many of them turn to crime because of our "Get out" attitude. We should see them as a benefit and not a detriment since I believe most of them want to be productive. Maybe even offer them military service in exchange for citizenship. The sheer logistics of tracking down and removing 8,000,000 people from their homes requires technology I don't even want to imagine. in short: you can stick to your guns and try to send 8,000,000 people back home, build a huge fence, and shoot on sight everyone trying to cross. OR you can take in the new force of 8,000,000 people and put them to work/combat and integrate them into your society. It may feel like an injustice, and it sort of is, but we have to decide if righting an injustice is worth destroying our own country even further.[/QUOTE] Why don't we send them to hard labour camps or some shit? There's literally no deterrance for illegal immigrants.
[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;42200908]Yes, people are killing themselves crossing the border. The loss of life is horrible, and the conditions in Mexico are horrid. But its not the United States fault. If you want into the country safely, if you want a drivers license, if you want to vote, if you want government benefits you have to go through the legal process.[/QUOTE] I would agree with you if the process isn't worse than a life sentence. But it is. So yeah...
[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;42200908]Yes, people are killing themselves crossing the border. The loss of life is horrible, and the conditions in Mexico are horrid. But its not the United States fault. If you want into the country safely, if you want a drivers license, if you want to vote, if you want government benefits you have to go through the legal process.[/QUOTE] A very convoluted legal process which is completely inane. Do you know the full process yourself?
Here is a nice infographic that gives a condensed overview of the immigration process for the USA. It is especially important for the people who say "immigrants should get in line" to look at this. [IMG]http://thumbnails.visually.netdna-cdn.com/what-part-of-legal-immigration-dont-you-understand_50290c8272a8d.jpg[/IMG] An important thing to note about it is if you are an unskilled worker, you are pretty much SOL for ever legally entering the United States.
[QUOTE=thisispain;42201197]belgium seems to be doing very fine in terms of welfare and healthcare, with a very healthy economy acc. to statistics[/QUOTE] There are less problems now, but at some point our government was being sued because there literally wasn't enough money for the OCMW (our social services) to hand out to everyone who needed it.
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