[QUOTE=Samiam22;50948440]I would rather be hit with a crossbow bolt than a .223 remington or a 00 buckshot. I would also rather the person shooting at me only being able to fire once and have to deal with 75 kilograms of draw weight than being able to fire at me multiple times until he gets it right.
I am sure I am not the only one with this sentiment.[/QUOTE]
I'm a little on the fence on this one, I can definitely see how it can be worse. A bullet is a small ass projectile that can easily pass through and cauterize a wound if it doesn't hit a major organ or artery. An arrow doesn't get hot so it still maintains whatever is on it. Plus, you have to remove the arrow which would be worse than a bullet passing straight through flesh. Now the arrow is probably a little more painless so I'll give you that, but in worse case scenario an arrow can be worse.
[QUOTE=Megadave;50948492]I'm a little on the fence on this one, I can definitely see how it can be worse. A bullet is a small ass projectile that can easily pass through and cauterize a wound if it doesn't hit a major organ or artery. An arrow doesn't get hot so it still maintains whatever is on it. Plus, you have to remove the arrow which would be worse than a bullet passing straight through flesh. Now the arrow is probably a little more painless so I'll give you that, but in worse case scenario an arrow can be worse.[/QUOTE]
[t]http://i.imgur.com/tOE2bYG.jpg[/t]
This deer's belly was ruptured from the inside by a broadhead bolt to the side.
This is gory as fuck so I'm just gonna link it-
[url]http://i.imgur.com/s1aCIOi.jpg[/url]
This deer's head was [I]blown open[/I] by a broadhead bolt.
I will take the bullet any day.
[QUOTE=Samiam22;50948483]But that's what we're arguing. A gun would have resulted in more deaths with a crossbow. Nobody is saying guns make you kill people. People kill people, guns just let them do more damage.[/QUOTE]
i'm not arguing that, you guys are. i'm just stating my original point that the weapon of choice doesn't matter, it's the person's intent that matters.
Modern crossbows are vicious.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50948448]As someone who owns both and has seen the effects of both on a variety of targets I would rather be hit with a bullet any day of the week. I bought a 180 pounder for $40 when I was 14. This bow will happily bury broadhead tips in solid oak trees, deep enough that they can't be removed without the bolt body shearing. It is more than capable of exploding bones, rupturing multiple organs and shredding enough meat to cause massive, irrecoverable bleeding.
I guarantee these people bled to death before responders could arrive. You can't do anything about that kind of damage. The survivor was likely winged. Bullet wounds can be stabilized on-scene with whatever's lying around.[/QUOTE]
If I recall correctly, .223 is very similar to 5.56mm, a round used to shoot at targets that may be armoured at distances of up to a few hundred metres, while 00 buckshot is used to hunt deer and other big animals. The prospect of me, a 110lb man, surviving a shot to the centre mass with either of them is not particularly favourable.
My point is that I'm not likely to survive either a bolt or a bullet, but at least a crossbow can only fire once before needing a pretty good effort to be reloaded whereas many guns can fire more than once.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50948514][t]http://i.imgur.com/tOE2bYG.jpg[/t]
This deer's belly was ruptured from the inside by a broadhead bolt to the side.
This is gory as fuck so I'm just gonna link it-
[url]http://i.imgur.com/s1aCIOi.jpg[/url]
This deer's head was [I]blown open[/I] by a broadhead bolt.
I will take the bullet any day.[/QUOTE]
Broke my arm falling off the fence.
[QUOTE=Pops;50948532]i'm not arguing that, you guys are. i'm just stating my original point that the weapon of choice doesn't matter, it's the person's intent that matters.[/QUOTE]
Then if it's the person's intent you're after, why bring up guns at all?
[QUOTE=Samiam22;50948571]Then if it's the person's intent you're after, why bring up guns at all?[/QUOTE]
one, like i said before, it was bound to happen, this is practically the new godwin's law. we should make a name for it.
two, you can't deny that it's brought up some very interesting gun v crossbow facts here, and certainly contributes to the conversation.
[QUOTE=Samiam22;50948565]If I recall correctly, .223 is very similar to 5.56mm, a round used to shoot at targets that may be armoured at distances of up to a few hundred metres, while 00 buckshot is used to hunt deer and other big animals. The prospect of me, a 110lb man, surviving a shot to the centre mass with either of them is not particularly favourable.
My point is that I'm not likely to survive either a bolt or a bullet, but at least a crossbow can only fire once before needing a pretty good effort to be reloaded whereas many guns can fire more than once.[/QUOTE]
Very few shootings are carried out with .223 rifles. Most are done with .380 to 9x19mm pistols, the wounds from which can be plugged with a thumb if necessary to suppress bleeding until first responders arrive. Wounds from those weapons are more often than not survivable.
Crossbow attacks rarely leave survivors.
I own a semi automatic .223 rifle (AR-15 with 30 rounders). It is not my go-to weapon in a home invasion scenario. For that I have a .45. The AR is just a range toy.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50948514][t]http://i.imgur.com/tOE2bYG.jpg[/t]
This deer's belly was ruptured from the inside by a broadhead bolt to the side.
This is gory as fuck so I'm just gonna link it-
[url]http://i.imgur.com/s1aCIOi.jpg[/url]
This deer's head was [I]blown open[/I] by a broadhead bolt.
I will take the bullet any day.[/QUOTE]
Sure, I'm not denying that a bolt would be unpleasant to be hit by, but you can find pictures of serious damage on animals with all sorts of hunting weapons. [url=http://www.newjerseyhunter.com/forums/attachments/1073d1364235235-brits-shoot-deer-head-p1010075.jpg]This one was done with a magnum hunting round[/url].
[QUOTE=Samiam22;50948595]Sure, I'm not denying that a bolt would be unpleasant to be hit by, but you can find pictures of serious damage on animals with all sorts of hunting weapons. [url=http://www.newjerseyhunter.com/forums/attachments/1073d1364235235-brits-shoot-deer-head-p1010075.jpg]This one was done with a magnum hunting round[/url].[/QUOTE]
Shootings aren't typically conducted with magnum hunting rounds. Broadheads, however, are the most common tips used with crossbows.
[url]https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?18742-380-vs-pit-bull[/url]
Here is a dog that was shot multiple times with a .380, which IIRC is the most commonly used caliber in crimes. The dog survived easily, even having been shot in the head and body.
There are multiple reported cases of people being shot with pistol calibers and not noticing for days.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50948585]Very few shootings are carried out with .223 rifles. Most are done with .380 to 9x19mm pistols, the wounds from which can be plugged with a thumb if necessary to suppress bleeding until first responders arrive. Wounds from those weapons are more often than not survivable.
Crossbow attacks rarely leave survivors.[/QUOTE]
Crossbow attacks also very rarely happen as well. [url=http://www.juancole.com/2012/07/58-murders-a-year-by-firearms-in-britain-8775-in-us.html] I found this article[/url] which said 2 murders happened in Britain with crossbows in 2011, but stats on crossbow homicide rate are a bit hard to come by
[QUOTE=Pops;50948317]tell that to the crazy chinese people who go on stabbing sprees. the weapon itself doesn't matter, it's the intent to cause harm.
[/QUOTE]
"The amount of lives saved by weapons in violent attacks not being guns is less important than my ability to own a gun."
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;50948675]"The amount of lives saved by weapons in violent attacks not being guns is less important than my ability to own a gun."[/QUOTE]
cars and alcohol kill more than guns combined per year.
let's ban them, see how that helps.
[QUOTE=Rika-chan;50948439]Yeah a single bolt is more lethal than a single bullet but you will fire a second shot from almost any gun faster than you will from a crossbow[/QUOTE]
Well actually, there is a thing called [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_crossbow"]Repeating crossbows.
[/URL][URL="https://hoveysoutdooradventures.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/excaliburs-new-black-x-bow-with-accessories.jpg"]And yes theres modern ones[/URL][URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_crossbow"].
[/URL]
And Canada has much higher restrictions on guns in comparison to the United states so many of the firearms we have are single shot of the manual and break action variety, and any semi automatics we have are typically restricted to have a very short magazine capacity. Crossbows and bows also have less restriction and stigma than firearms here too. They are also much more quiet, meaning unless people can physically see whats going on they would not know what is happening, there would be no warning at all.
Hell, some guys have [U][I]made[/I][/U] some repeating crossbows by making it [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR0FXZe2_64"]pump action[/URL], while the one in this video is relatively low powered, it would not be too difficult to make it larger to make it more powerful. But there are actually designs to make 200 pound draw weight crossbows that cock themselves by an electric motor they mount under the crossbow to quite literally fire them a lot easier than having to pull on the string yourself, and a crossbow with that much force would actually penetrate kelvar vests too.
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;50946835][url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/man-handed-life-sentence-in-toronto-crossbow-killing-of-abusive-father/article4517661/]This isn't the first one either.[/url]
Then again Scarborough is basically the shithole of Toronto. Nobody ever has anything good to say about Scarberia, not even the people who live there. It's not entirely true that all of Scarborough is one massive ghetto, but ask anyone from anywhere else in the Greater Toronto Area and they'll basically just say that it's easier to assume that all of Scarborough is a massive ghetto.[/QUOTE]
I just saw this; does Canada not have an exception for certain crimes of passion? This guy would not have been charged in the US.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50948823]I just saw this; does Canada not have an exception for certain crimes of passion? This guy would not have been charged in the US.[/QUOTE]
Wait, really? Isn't it still manslaughter at the very least?
[QUOTE=archangel125;50948885]Wait, really? Isn't it still manslaughter at the very least?[/QUOTE]
He might have been charged with something, but I doubt he would've done time for it - trial by jury being what it is, jurors are unlikely to consider him a criminal for finally snapping under years of abuse, especially considering the nature of the abuse and because his father was abusing his mother as well. There are multiple precedents for this.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50948933]He might have been charged with something, but I doubt he would've done time for it - trial by jury being what it is, jurors are unlikely to consider him a criminal for finally snapping under years of abuse, especially considering the nature of the abuse and because his father was abusing his mother as well. There are multiple precedents for this.[/QUOTE]
Maybe juries have a different role in the States. Here, their only job is to impartially decide whether or not a crime - as described in the criminal code - has been committed beyond a reasonable doubt, and with the extenuating circumstances being completely irrelevant. The judge, then, chooses the sentence based on legal precedent and taking mitigating factors into account. I don't think the guy should go to prison, either, but that's just how the legal system here works.
Juries in the US can recommend a sentence but it is ultimately up to the judge. Often in cases like this the judge will defer to the jury - or decide himself not to sentence the defendant.
abuse and whatnot, he still chose to act by shooting his father with a crossbow and then proceed to smash his skull with a hammer. dude would at least spend a few years in a ward.
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;50946835][URL="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/man-handed-life-sentence-in-toronto-crossbow-killing-of-abusive-father/article4517661/"]This isn't the first one either.[/URL]
Then again Scarborough is basically the shithole of Toronto. Nobody ever has anything good to say about Scarberia, not even the people who live there. It's not entirely true that all of Scarborough is one massive ghetto, but ask anyone from anywhere else in the Greater Toronto Area and they'll basically just say that it's easier to assume that all of Scarborough is a massive ghetto.[/QUOTE]
This is really ignorant and wrong.
I lived in scarborough for 18 years, most of it is beautiful but because nobody seems to know where the boundaries are so a ton of crime gets dumped on it when it's been statistically proven that the rest of toronto has more crime.
This happened in a locally well known shitty place, south of eg has been tame for more than 16 years.
I'd rather live there than anywhere else in Toronto, and the entire bluffs/cliffside community is gorgeous and safer than most other places in the city. In my experience the worst neighborhoods have been in east york and central toronto.
Like seriously? Even comparing it to a massive ghetto is seriously ignorant and fucking dumb. How about teesdale? How about little jamaica? How about the entire area surrounding main station? How about when you walk three blocks from george brown and the buildings change into old and run down buildings with visible homeless and junkies everywhere? How about flemington park? How about JANE AND FINCH? Can we please stop perpetuating the absolute bullshit claim that 625,000 people that make up this city are all in some crime infested ghetto? It's incredibly insulting
[QUOTE=Pops;50948284]and this is why gun control is a waste of time.
if the guy wants to cause harm, he'll find a way.[/QUOTE]
This is fucking ridiculous.
Gun control is already a massive pro-gun circle jerk on this forum in every other thread, why do you need to shove it in here.
[QUOTE=Pops;50948284]and this is why gun control is a waste of time.
if the guy wants to cause harm, he'll find a way.[/QUOTE]
If he had a gun it would've been likely that he'd be able to kill or injure even more people.
you guys are a little late, we're past that.
at this point I'm pretty sure gun debates are an attractor in the state space of SH threads, if a thread can be derailed into a gun debate thread, it will be
At least the thread hasn't devolved into a complete shit fest, I think the comparisons of major gun wounds that animals receive is silly as fuck, hunters typically use large caliber hollow points, your average criminal with a gun isn't going to buy expensive HP ammo when you can get much cheaper fmj ammo. Also people really underestimate how deadly crossbows are. Honestly surprised you don't hear about them being used more. Hope the guy taken into custody is the one who did it, what a piece of shit.
[QUOTE=Pops;50948701]cars and alcohol kill more than guns combined per year.
let's ban them, see how that helps.[/QUOTE]
I tried to make a snarky "what your actually saying" quote but there's so much wrong with this post I couldn't do it without making it sound weird. Not only are you attempting to distract from the issue at hand, you're comparing three incredibly unlike things by simplifying them down to a death statistic and then forcing people to make a binary choice when you can do more than one thing to change how things work. That's three logical fallacies in one two sentence long post, I didn't even know that was possible.
the crossbow killer
a medieval evil
stalks the streets no more
[QUOTE=Pops;50948701]cars and alcohol kill more than guns combined per year.
let's ban them, see how that helps.[/QUOTE]
Such a shitty argument.
Alcohol I can't argue against but cars are almost completely necessary nowadays.
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