[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;49429839]The problem with me is that I can accept all these plot holes or w/e because you can just explain most of it by saying "It's the force" or [sp]In Han Solo's case, "I'm too old and I don't want to act anymore"[/sp][/QUOTE]While I can understand that, on the first point [sp]there's already an established precedent of force use and it's been made clear several times that force users need to refine their skill before doing half the shit Rey was doing.[/sp] As for the second bit, [sp]that just ruins the immersion for me, I couldn't stop thinking about it. That abrupt character death combined with the likely real-life reason is making me think of it over and over and it's souring the whole movie for me.[/sp]
ole' george should have just quit making movies while he was ahead
[sp]Using these spoiler tags makes me feel like we're in some sort of secret club by the way so any normies reading this better stop! >:([/sp]
[sp]reee[/sp]
[QUOTE=1/4 Life;49428177]Easy:
She used the force. It told her what to do.
Luke was pretty decent with a saber too once he started using the force.
Hell, remember the shot on the Death Star he managed? He'd never even flown an X-Wing before.
Nothing new going on here.[/QUOTE]
They also made it super clear that he was [sp]pretty injured (shot by Chewbacca and stabbed by the saber from Fin) and mentally unstable from anger.[/sp]
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49429920]While I can understand that, on the first point [sp]there's already an established precedent of force use and it's been made clear several times that force users need to refine their skill before doing half the shit Rey was doing.[/sp] As for the second bit, [sp]that just ruins the immersion for me, I couldn't stop thinking about it. That abrupt character death combined with the likely real-life reason is making me think of it over and over and it's souring the whole movie for me.[/sp][/QUOTE]
Well for the second bit, you could make an argument that [sp]Han Solo's death was justified in order develope more character for the villain. To me, Kyo Ren was an edgy teenager going through some sort of weird phase that I could never take seriously. I knew for a fact that Han Solo was going to die because it was already established in existing lore, but I didn't think it was going to be in this movie because Kylo Ren acted like a massive pussy and plus the imagery fooled me into thinking that he was going to show some sympathy. [/sp]
Somewhat spoilerish: The thing is Kylo Ren is supposed to be a badass who took down Lukes Boyscout Camp, he catches a laser within the first 15 minutes of the movie which iirc no one has done before and was at the very least trained by Snoke.
Then he takes off his mask, hes some average looking kid and he throws temper tantrums all the time. He lets some smug prick officer shit talk him and get away with it and hes got super low self confidence.
I don't know if it's just bad writing (it had plenty to begin with) or if they're going to build on it more.
[QUOTE=VanguardElite;49427235]Just that when I think sith, I think space-badasses, also to mention, how is it that Rey managed to beat a trained sith in a lightsaber duel, when she has never used one before.[/QUOTE]
I'm putting this in spoiler tags, MAJOR spoilers, but this is all also why I think Kylo-Ren is really well written, and isn't just a little bitch for little bitch purposes as a plot device
[sp]Kylo Ren in the start of the movie was a bad fucking ass. He comes out, calm, cool, collected. He freezes people in place with the force. Violently. He stops a blaster bolt in mid air like it ain't shit. It's yet another operation like all the rest. He's in full control of the situation and has no reason to be worried or pissed off.
Cut to the end of the movie. We know he loses his temper easily. Just fucking RAGES out of control. We know he's insecure. His reaction to when Rey says he'll never be like Vader, for instance. We also know he's insecure as shit because he wears what he wears PURELY for intimidation purposes. He's mostly a force novice who acts like a college student who's just completed year ONE of law school and thinks they now know the law. And in his world, that's probably all he needs, until the end of the movie when it really isn't. There's also his lightsaber which is very janky and poorly constructed which further shows he's a novice.
But then he kills his father, he's been embarrassed several times now, he's fucking pissed. He's wounded. He can't keep his emotions in check before all of this shit, let alone now. Remember, Luke Skywalker couldn't levitate a fucking rock unless he was fully focused, or pull his saber in the wampa cave. Rey has been fending for herself for her whole life. She fought two dudes and beat the shit out of them at the start of the movie no problem. Fin was trained from childhood as an elite Stormtrooper. (One of which brings out a melee weapon to fight him, I guess they all get martial training). And at the end, Kylo-Ren couldn't force pull the hilt to himself because he's THAT unfocused.
So all this adds up as The showdowns between Kylo Ren, Fin, and Rey are fairly even matches. Fin loses because of course he's going to. He's fighting a force user, but he's still able to hold his own a little bit. But Rey's going to win because she's found her focus and her abilities, and Kylo Ren is beating on his wound to cause himself pain to try and get his back out of desperation[/sp]
[QUOTE=TheTalon;49429874]
Kylo-Ren is possibly better written than even Darth Vader, and neither are thanks to you[/QUOTE]
Yahhhhhhh noooooooo.
Darth Vader isn't exactly a deep character, but his depiction has a better impact in the story and does his role well as written.
Kylo Ren at best has potential, but right now is meh and comes off as a joke.
[QUOTE=Tudd;49430044]Yahhhhhhh noooooooo.
Darth Vader isn't exactly a deep character, but his depiction has a better impact in the story and does his role well as written.
Kylo Ren at best has potential, but right now is meh and comes off as a joke.[/QUOTE]
Well that's the thing, Vader has 3 movies under his belt (arguably 4), Kylo Ren only has one so far. Compare just A New Hope Vader vs Force Awakens Kylo-Ren
[QUOTE=TheTalon;49430054]Well that's the thing, Vader has 3 movies under his belt (arguably 4), Kylo Ren only has one so far. Compare just A New Hope Vader vs Force Awakens Kylo-Ren[/QUOTE]
Still going with Vader any time of the day.
The intimidation, mystery, and interaction with others makes Vader far more interesting.
Kylo in comparison is just "This guy throws tandrums cause he wanna be bad but will probably change in the last movie."
[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;49430004]Somewhat spoilerish: [sp]The thing is Kylo Ren is supposed to be a badass who took down Lukes Boyscout Camp, he catches a laser within the first 15 minutes of the movie which iirc no one has done before and was at the very least trained by Snoke.
Then he takes off his mask, hes some average looking kid and he throws temper tantrums all the time. He lets some smug prick officer shit talk him and get away with it and hes got super low self confidence.[/sp]
I don't know if it's just bad writing (it had plenty to begin with) or if they're going to build on it more.[/QUOTE]
[sp]From what I got out of it, they were trying to make him relatable or at least familiar to the audience. I hate Kylo Ren's personality but I prefer that over no personality at all.[/sp]
[QUOTE=Butthurter;49430042]pretty sure snoke is yet to be revealed as a darth/sith lord
him finishing kylos training could mean anything
it seems lkely that the knights of ren might be this trilogys version of the sith
also if you havent noticed, in a new hope vader gets bullied around by other imperial officers too
its just that grand moff tarkin and vader both knew how to keep each other on a leash, theyre both "equals" but clearly distrust one another[/QUOTE]
I pretty much think that snoke (a stupid name that apparently leia of all people seems to be on first name basis with...) Purposefully held back his training, knowing full well the first time he'd fight a real fight he'd get his ass handed to him, because he wants him to be broken, focused by his need to get back, much like Darth Vader wasn't truely under the dark sides influence until he was broken himself, its part of their journey to have a crystal clear focal point which they can channel their hate through. [Sp] now that he's been broken, he will be recorded by snoke and rebuild into Darth ren... And we shall see him in the future sporting new limbs and scars from their first fight[/sp]
[QUOTE=Butthurter;49430145]my own theory about this is that kylo is going to be the exact opposite of the vader spectrum
[sp]start off bad with some good in him and gets progressively more evil rather than be redeemed by one final act[/sp][/QUOTE]
You're probably right
[sp]Almost everything is a 1:1 of the original trilogy, except it's as if you're seeing it in a mirror or it's inverted[/sp]
[QUOTE=Butthurter;49430111]if you take esb and rotj out of the equation, vader was hardly a character in a new hope though
literally all we knew about him was that he gets bickered by a bunch of imperial suits, hes a great pilot, and that he killed lukes dad
he didnt have an ounce of personality through most of it[/QUOTE]
We see he isn't afraid to enforce his will but still tethered to Moth Tarkin, that he lambasts with Obi Wan about being stronger/enjoys it, and ultimately just serves as the muscle/enforcer villain films typically use in the adventure genre which generally works solidly.
Kylo Ren on the other hand is all over the place with no clear personality. He is either extremely skilled and calculated or mood swingy. The Hux interaction is suppose to mirror Tarkin but on a equal footing, but it is barely in the film and not that impactful. And there isn't much mystery to him now besides hopefully a good explanation on while he comes off like a brat.
[QUOTE=TheTalon;49430032]I'm putting this in spoiler tags, MAJOR spoilers, but this is all also why I think Kylo-Ren is really well written, and isn't just a little bitch for little bitch purposes as a plot device
[sp]Kylo Ren in the start of the movie was a bad fucking ass. He comes out, calm, cool, collected. He freezes people in place with the force. Violently. He stops a blaster bolt in mid air like it ain't shit. It's yet another operation like all the rest. He's in full control of the situation and has no reason to be worried or pissed off.
Cut to the end of the movie. We know he loses his temper easily. Just fucking RAGES out of control. We know he's insecure. His reaction to when Rey says he'll never be like Vader, for instance. We also know he's insecure as shit because he wears what he wears PURELY for intimidation purposes. He's mostly a force novice who acts like a college student who's just completed year ONE of law school and thinks they now know the law. And in his world, that's probably all he needs, until the end of the movie when it really isn't. There's also his lightsaber which is very janky and poorly constructed which further shows he's a novice.
But then he kills his father, he's been embarrassed several times now, he's fucking pissed. He's wounded. He can't keep his emotions in check before all of this shit, let alone now. Remember, Luke Skywalker couldn't levitate a fucking rock unless he was fully focused, or pull his saber in the wampa cave. Rey has been fending for herself for her whole life. She fought two dudes and beat the shit out of them at the start of the movie no problem. Fin was trained from childhood as an elite Stormtrooper. (One of which brings out a melee weapon to fight him, I guess they all get martial training). And at the end, Kylo-Ren couldn't force pull the hilt to himself because he's THAT unfocused.
So all this adds up as The showdowns between Kylo Ren, Fin, and Rey are fairly even matches. Fin loses because of course he's going to. He's fighting a force user, but he's still able to hold his own a little bit. But Rey's going to win because she's found her focus and her abilities, and Kylo Ren is beating on his wound to cause himself pain to try and get his back out of desperation[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]not to mention kylo ren got shot by chewie and his bowcaster. if you remember what happened to every other guy in the movie who was shot by it, they got fucking DESTROYED
so when kylo ren faces down against finn and rey, he's not only just pure untrained talent but also very hurt[/sp]
[QUOTE=God of Ashes;49430188][sp]not to mention kylo ren got shot by chewie and his bowcaster. if you remember what happened to every other guy in the movie who was shot by it, they got fucking DESTROYED[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]Yeah that's the wound that he's beating the shit out of to cause himself pain to try and focus some rage to try and get an upper hand[/sp]
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49429425][sp]They seemed to go over the top with trying to make the bad guys seem extra, extra evil. I mean who the fuck would work for an organization like that? Surely Finn wasn't the only one who went "these people are clearly innocent, this is wrong, fuck this." So why were they acting like his desertion was a big deal? I mean I expect an organization like that to have basically commissars who would go around making sure everyone was loyal and to execute dissenters... At least the Empire had a goal in mind to forcibly bring order to the galaxy, it seems like these guys were just being dicks for the hell of it and it wasn't at all believable.[/sp]
There's more, but I'm getting depressed just thinking about all of this.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you for the most part, but [sp]the movie clues you in to why Finn's desertion is a big deal. There is an exchange between Hux and Ren where its mentioned that all the Stormtroopers have been kidnapped as children and indoctrinated. Hux even makes a joke about how obsolete clones are compared to his superior brainwashed soldiers. It's my understanding that the First Order simply hasn't had any deserters within its ranks until Finn came along, that's why it such a big deal when Finn reveals that he actually is a traitor and wants to give the Resistance information.[/sp]
[QUOTE=TheTalon;49430153]You're probably right
[sp]Almost everything is a 1:1 of the original trilogy, except it's as if you're seeing it in a mirror or it's inverted[/sp][/QUOTE]
Eh I wouldn't say that, Vader has almost no time to make that big change from being ready to chop luke up to wanting to redeam himself, the original movies have their own flaws, this movie we at least see how the characters react to things and change themselves, Vader in the original trillogy was basically a walking wall of force that pushed our characters along, always 1 minute behind them everywhere, until the 3rd movie where suddenly he doubts the emperor, turns on him and wants to befriend Luke in all of 10 minutes, at least in the 2nd one he had a plan to overthrow the emperor with Luke, but by the 3rd movie Lucas was back at the wheel and botched all that with some half done redemption story.
[QUOTE=Butthurter;49430262]when was he calculated? i dont recall this part of his character
you meant to say he was calm during the first part of the movie
people keep ignoring this but as soon as he hears about the existence of "a girl from jakku" he flips the fuck out and goes full out scared and practically prays to his vader mask
you really dont think a scared wuss doesnt qualify as a characteristic trait on its own?[/QUOTE]
He seemed pretty sure of himself/coordinated on [sp]torturing and extraction, ordering people around, and kept guessing how the main characters would do things.[/sp] Either way like I said he has potential with the whole scared wuss thing, but it is easy to mess it up and right now it isn't coming off great.
You sold it to fucking Disney, what the fuck did you expect?
The reason Kylo comes off cool and collected in the beginning is that [sp]he was. He was in complete control. There was nothing to contest him and he was fully aware of what was going on all around him. By the end of the film he's being overwhelmed, everything is collapsing around him, and he's severely wounded. He is a novice - the above comparison to a first year law student is apt. When everything is going by the book, he's cool-headed and able to portray himself the way he wants people to see him. As his grip begins to slacken, he can't keep up the mask. This is even symbolized directly in the film.[/sp]
George Lucas got incredibly lucky and was made delusional by all the senseless praise he got.
[editline]1st January 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Megadave;49430387]You sold it to fucking Disney, what the fuck did you expect?[/QUOTE]
Disney handled the franchise tremendously better than Lucas ever has.
They're keeping all the debatable, dumb and family friendly stuff away from the main movies, which was Lucas' first and most blatant mistake.
Whats this about how the original Star Wars movie was an incredible case of luck? I keep hearing it pop up.
Stupid click bait title. He never said he hated it, he just wished the movie was more unique.
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;49430725]Whats this about how the original Star Wars movie was an incredible case of luck? I keep hearing it pop up.[/QUOTE]
Episode IV was a complete mess of a film that was fully saved in editing.
Not sure about the other episodes, but it's clear that Episode V wasn't as closely tied with Lucas's vision as he wanted it to be, and was actually a better movie as a result it seems. Lucas's input on Episode VI is the reason we have the [del]Jawas[/del] ewoks, and a bunch of other little niggling details that some fans don't like about it (even though it's still a great movie overall).
I mean, we've seen what happens when Lucas gets full creative control over a movie (the prequels), though who knows, maybe it's just because he's become blinded my money.
It's ironic really. Lucas as a young director was very vocal about being "against the system", but now he's practically become the system.
[QUOTE=Rahu X;49430834]Episode IV was a complete mess of a film that was fully saved in editing.
Not sure about the other episodes, but it's clear that Episode V wasn't as closely tied with Lucas's vision as he wanted it to be, and was actually a better movie as a result it seems. Lucas's input on Episode VI is the reason we have the Jawas, and a bunch of other little niggling details that some fans don't like about it (even though it's still a great movie overall).
I mean, we've seen what happens when Lucas gets full creative control over a movie (the prequels), though who knows, maybe it's just because he's become blinded my money.
It's ironic really. Lucas as a young director was very vocal about being "against the system", but now he's practically become the system.[/QUOTE]
I think you mean the ewoks, I don't think anyone really minded the jawas. Lucas seems like what you get if a "client from hell" becomes the director.
[QUOTE=Rahu X;49430834]Episode IV was a complete mess of a film that was fully saved in editing.
Not sure about the other episodes, but it's clear that Episode V wasn't as closely tied with Lucas's vision as he wanted it to be, and was actually a better movie as a result it seems. Lucas's input on Episode VI is the reason we have the Jawas, and a bunch of other little niggling details that some fans don't like about it (even though it's still a great movie overall).
I mean, we've seen what happens when Lucas gets full creative control over a movie (the prequels), though who knows, maybe it's just because he's become blinded my money.
It's ironic really. Lucas as a young director was very vocal about being "against the system", but now he's practically become the system.[/QUOTE][I]Some[/I] of the expanded universe stuff has the Ewoks (you said Jawas, but same difference because it happened to them too) as something a little less ridiculous, but that sort of shit (cute teddy bear alien shit) is what killed the prequel movies. Star Wars was always supposed to be an epic tale that told a real story based in a galaxy far, far away. That cutesy, cheap-shot comic relief like fucking BATTLE DROIDS saying "ow" and shit was something that Lucas needed somebody to call him on and go, "hey, George, what's the deal?"
It's the same sort of unrestricted creative talent that has pushed me to hating Bethesda, and it's been something that's killed so many things over the years. I suppose you could say it's jumping the shark, but that's too harsh of a term to use for the prequel movies because they weren't that bad at all.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49430850]I think you mean the ewoks, I don't think anyone really minded the jawas. Lucas seems like what you get if a "client from hell" becomes the director.[/QUOTE]
Yep, I knew I fucked up.
Shows how much of a [B]"fan"[/B] I am.:v:
[QUOTE=wraithcat;49428041]Game of Thrones is centered firmly in politics and it's better for it. But it feels like believable politics. Lucas's space politics were politics in such a way [B]6 year old children[/B] could understand them and as such felt week, fruitless and completely unnecessary.
Imagine if what we saw of the senate had the same buildup as the first book of GOT, the same backstabbing, power plays and it would culminate with the CIS breaking away (in a similar way like the north did)[/QUOTE]
tbh i don't even think i knew what a senate did when i was watching those movies
i knew they were some government thingy but back in those days, that whole political side-plot went over the heads of me and my buds
Didn't Lucas make like 4 billion dollars selling starwars?
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