New program in Connecticut to give inmates free community college education
62 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Dr. Ethan Asia;50956164]It's easy to see them as getting better benefits than you when you take other benefits for granted. Decent home, decent living, a social life - these are things that I imagine most convicts don't have but most low-income students do. If you take a step back and assess how well your life is going, even if it's not great, you're probably in a better position than someone who's had to resort to crimes to survive.[/QUOTE]
These things are not a given. I have to work full time to stay in my home, I have to work to make a living, I don't have much time for a social life between work and school, and I have to work to pay for college. These are not benefits handed out willy nilly to me; these are things I worked for. I would love to get a free community college education, but someone who committed a crime is getting it free instead. It's rather frustrating.
Also, it's a faulty assumption that every prisoner who could go through this program committed their crime out of necessity.
[QUOTE=Dr. Ethan Asia;50956164]It's easy to see them as getting better benefits than you when you take other benefits for granted. Decent home, family, a living, a social life, probably no drastic mental health issues, good employment record - these are things that I imagine most convicts don't have but most low-income students do. If you take a step back and assess how well your life is going, even if it's not great, you're probably in a better position than someone who's had to resort to crimes to survive.[/QUOTE]
I never said their lives are better than mine, I'm just empathizing with the reaction some people have to prisoners getting an expensive benefit that the rest of us struggle for.
[editline]27th August 2016[/editline]
And yeah, assuming that they committed crimes to survive is a laugh. Not all prisoners are evil, but not all of them are doing a bid for stealing fresh produce to feed their orphan siblings either.
Just because they receive the education, doesn't mean that they are likely to get a job over a regular college student - your debt won't keep you from getting work, but having being in jail, could.
[QUOTE=srobins;50956186]I never said their lives are better than mine, I'm just empathizing with the reaction some people have to prisoners getting an expensive benefit that the rest of us struggle for.
[editline]27th August 2016[/editline]
And yeah, assuming that they committed crimes to survive is a laugh. Not all prisoners are evil, but not all of them are doing a bid for stealing fresh produce to feed their orphan siblings either.[/QUOTE]
I didn't mean to imply you were saying that, sorry! I was speaking generally.
[QUOTE=Dr. Evilcop;50956178]These things are not a given. I have to work full time to stay in my home, I have to work to make a living, I don't have much time for a social life between work and school, and I have to work to pay for college. These are not benefits handed out willy nilly to me; these are things I worked for. I would love to get a free community college education, but someone who committed a crime is getting it free instead. It's rather frustrating.[/quote]
That's fair enough - I mean, I don't know anything about you, but having worked and lived with former convicts, I know that most of them have mental problems, grew up in broken or abusive homes, struggle to get employment (which is obviously made even harder by having been in prison), come from low income families, suffered from an addiction, struggled with any level of education - these aren't necessarily things you can just work to achieve (I won't go into things like race, sexual orientation, gender, or things like that, but they do apply). Convicts don't have to pay monetarily, but you could consider their previous life as a payment, of sorts.
[Quote]Also, it's a faulty assumption that every prisoner who could go through this program committed their crime out of necessity.[/QUOTE]
True, but I think most crimes are born out of circumstance indicative of hardship, be it economic or something else.
[QUOTE=Dr. Evilcop;50956178]These things are not a given. I have to work full time to stay in my home, I have to work to make a living, I don't have much time for a social life between work and school, and I have to work to pay for college. These are not benefits handed out willy nilly to me; these are things I worked for. I would love to get a free community college education, but someone who committed a crime is getting it free instead. It's rather frustrating.
Also, it's a faulty assumption that every prisoner who could go through this program committed their crime out of necessity.[/QUOTE]
Your frustration is rational. This isn't fair, but it's a step in the right direction. But keep in mind like gufu said, these people have a criminal record. With a degree, these convicts will have a better chance of returning the work force instead of possibly restoring to crime once they're out in less than five years. It seems like a net benefit for society. Hopefully you'll get satisfaction from not needing to take advantage of this sort of thing, even if it won't take away the sting, especially in the short term.
[QUOTE=RIPBILLYMAYS;50955475]I understand why they are funding this and I agree that education prevents crime.
However, it is extremely frustrating that the students who follow a straight path still get fucked up the ass with tuition. Even at a community college yearly tuition is $5000, and even though it is cheaper to go there, high achieving students are always pushed to go to a traditional university.
I don't want government programs or moneys, but seeing others get stuff for free because society is better off giving it to them makes me wonder what's the point of working hard? I'm gonna graduate 100k+ in debt and my only way to pay it off in school is through summer internships because I'm a decent but not brilliant student in my field. Meanwhile I have classmates who are given full rides not because of their grades, but because they come from low income areas and get a lot of financial aid, or their parents are wealthy enough to pay for everything. I work hard to pass my classes which I am paying for, but it becomes really disheartening when I'm still burdened with this debt and there's minimal recognition.
/rant[/QUOTE]
Look at all these good arguments for making college tuition free for everyone.
No I know, I do agree that it's a good thing. It's just the whole American education system in general is just extremely frustrating in general, and it's hard not to point that anger at things like this :v:
[editline]27th August 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;50956259]Look at all these good arguments for making college tuition free for everyone.[/QUOTE]
That sure would be lovely, but it's not happening any time soon with the political environment in the states.
[QUOTE=Dr. Evilcop;50956260]No I know, I do agree that it's a good thing. It's just the whole American education system in general is just extremely frustrating in general, and it's hard not to point that anger at things like this :v:[/QUOTE]
I understand and share your frustration, but why not point it at something [B]actually[/B] responsible for all the problems the American education system has, rather than decidedly harmless and ultimately positive programs like this?
You might argue that bitching about the American education system is useless because it won't change anything - but bitching about this program won't change anything, either.
"if I can't have it, nobody should be able to!" is almost always a terrible line of reasoning for restricting someone's access to something
As much as I agree with giving inmates educations since it has all sorts of benefits like reducing violence, reducing inmate population, and decreasing the chances that they'll get arrested again, I don't like the idea that we're trying to run before we've learned to walk. Why should we be giving inmates free educations before ordinary citizens even get them?
sounds good, the only people who complain against giving inmates something academically challenging to do while inside and something that will greatly reduce their recindivism and improve job prospects are people who dont believe in a reform prison system and just want them to sit in a hole till they go nuts
[editline]27th August 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Humin;50956734]As much as I agree with giving inmates educations since it has all sorts of benefits like reducing violence, reducing inmate population, and decreasing the chances that they'll get arrested again, I don't like the idea that we're trying to run before we've learned to walk. Why should we be giving inmates free educations before ordinary citizens even get them?[/QUOTE]
because of all those reasons you listed. theyre the group most likely to take their bad outcomes from highschool level or lower employment and do bad things
[QUOTE=Badballer;50954929]Community college, and no that's a terrible idea who would do that?[/QUOTE]
People already commit crimes to get a roof over their head, food in their stomach, or get health coverage for something they can't pay for. Why not free education
[QUOTE=TheTalon;50957025]People already commit crimes to get a roof over their head, food in their stomach, or get health coverage for something they can't pay for. Why not free education[/QUOTE]
Until you have numbers for this claim, its BS.
This is a federal program, not a local or state one.
My college announced the second chance pull program months ago.
[url]http://www.matc.edu/matc_news/MATCSelectedforUSDepartmentofEducationProgram.cfm[/url]
This isn't inherently bad, but the fact of the matter is that college should be open to everyone, not just the rich and those which get caught doing stupid shit.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;50957944]It's like the most extreme inbetween
Only those lower than dirt or higher than the heavens can get it reasonably[/QUOTE]
the middle class always gets fucked in the US
"Guess hardwork isn't enough anymore! Giving criminals free education but not me! Sad!"
Excusing, of course, the myriad of ways to get free or reduced community college tuitions through work programs, volunteering, government grants, and even just by getting good grades in highschool.
And if all that fails, community college is still only a few hundreds bucks per semester.
That's not to say that I think all is well with education in America, of course. There are definitely serious issues with the cost of education, especially as you move on to universities. However, the argument that it's better to go to prison for free community college is somehow an attractive or viable premise is ridiculous.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50965925]
And if all that fails, community college is still only a few hundreds bucks per semester.
[/QUOTE]
Going full time cost me ~$2,500 for this semester.
That's not a few hundred dollars, especially since I make $7.25 an hour and don't qualify for any kind of scholarships apparently because I've applied for [B]so many[/B] and have gotten zero.
[QUOTE=FlakTheMighty;50966268]Going full time cost me ~$2,500 for this semester.
That's not a few hundred dollars, especially since I make $7.25 an hour and don't qualify for any kind of scholarships apparently because I've applied for [B]so many[/B] and have gotten zero.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. A few hundred bucks is the cost of books alone, the pricing of which is another can of worms in and of itself.
if you want to work hard and get free college then try military service.
With ROTC you just gotta pass the courses they give you, pass the courses you want to take, get fit, then do your 8 year service commitment. Then bam, it's all paid for. So simple!
4 years of active duty and 4 on reserve is too much time? Well you're just fucking lazy and unpatriotic. (also remember not to die)
brb moving to Connecticut, committing a minor non-violent crime, and getting free college.
[QUOTE=bdd458;50957073]Until you have numbers for this claim, its BS.[/QUOTE]
Numbers can be BS too. You should know what, you are from America.
When will people stop being greedy and realize that having free education would have a profound effect on our society in pretty much every sector? That's how you save the world right there, but I guess having more green paper in your safe is more important... :(
[QUOTE=aliendrone123;50970517]When will people stop being greedy and realize that having free education would have a profound effect on our society in pretty much every sector? That's how you save the world right there, but I guess having more green paper in your safe is more important... :([/QUOTE]
"Free" education means nothing if the quality is crap, or if you don't use the skills you learned from your studies in your career. This is why people accept paying out the ass to go to a university because the skills you develop in return are desired in the private sector. There's merit to non STEM degrees but if you end up being a carpenter with a BA in History then you wasted someone's money (your own, your parents, or taxpayers) just to get a college experience, because you could've been a carpenter without dropping 20-200k on a History degree.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;50954898]GG america.
You convinced people that education should be paid for.
On topic, I'm very happy these guys are getting this chance at reshaping their life.[/QUOTE]
This attitude may be about something besides education should be paid for. For a lot of people, the idea that if someone commits a crime they will then get free education or job training means we are rewarding them for being criminals.
It's hard for them to understand that it's better for them, the taxpaying non criminal, if prisoners get rehabbed. This inmate is a cost to society, if you turn them into educated or trained workers they will be taxpaying contributors.
I think the main reason it's hard to explain this to them is because it's a long term solution. The benefits of this approach will take generations to be seen. It's not like 'free college courses today, less crime tomorrow' is going to happen. So with no immediate tangible benefits to point to, they think this approach is wrong.
[QUOTE=FlakTheMighty;50966268]Going full time cost me ~$2,500 for this semester.
That's not a few hundred dollars, especially since I make $7.25 an hour and don't qualify for any kind of scholarships apparently because I've applied for [B]so many[/B] and have gotten zero.[/QUOTE]
are you independant from your parents because my brother did that and makes like 12ish an hour and goes to school free
[editline]29th August 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=RIPBILLYMAYS;50970684]"Free" education means nothing if the quality is crap, or if you don't use the skills you learned from your studies in your career. This is why people accept paying out the ass to go to a university because the skills you develop in return are desired in the private sector. There's merit to non STEM degrees but if you end up being a carpenter with a BA in History then you wasted someone's money (your own, your parents, or taxpayers) just to get a college experience, because you could've been a carpenter without dropping 20-200k on a History degree.[/QUOTE]
but would they have become a successful carpenter if they didnt get the degree. maybe they became a carpenter because of the history degree, and what does it matter if they repay their loans and become successful?
colleges develope skills besides exactly what your degree is in
I had a feeling there would be some undue resistance.
Those programs are excellent at reducing recidivism and at making productive citizens out of people who are otherwise just costing society resources. There's no need for vindictiveness in our justice system. It's time we moved toward a more modern model. This is a step in the right direction.
[editline]29th August 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=RIPBILLYMAYS;50970684]but if you end up being a carpenter with a BA in History then you wasted someone's money (your own, your parents, or taxpayers) just to get a college experience, because you could've been a carpenter without dropping 20-200k on a History degree.[/QUOTE]
I think you might not fully appreciate the benefit that having some secondary education has on lifetime earnings and quality of life. Consider the trans-generational effects of an individual having an education. [[URL="http://www.nccp.org/publications/pub_786.html"]1[/URL]] Even if a person doesn't graduate or find an occupation related to their degree they may still become more productive. There's a reason people stand behind the idea of liberal arts as general requirements for graduation.
Ethics, mathematics, introductory business, etc are always practical.
[QUOTE=Biotoxsin;50971049]I had a feeling there would be some undue resistance.
Those programs are excellent at reducing recidivism and at making productive citizens out of people who are otherwise just costing society resources. There's no need for vindictiveness in our justice system. It's time we moved toward a more modern model. This is a step in the right direction.
[editline]29th August 2016[/editline]
I think you might not fully appreciate the benefit that having some secondary education has on lifetime earnings and quality of life. Consider the trans-generational effects of an individual having an education. [[URL="http://www.nccp.org/publications/pub_786.html"]1[/URL]] Even if a person doesn't graduate or find an occupation related to their degree they may still become more productive. There's a reason people stand behind the idea of liberal arts as general requirements for graduation.
Ethics, mathematics, introductory business, etc are always practical.[/QUOTE]
not to mention the doors that get opened up from being in college. there's plenty of companies that specifically recruit employees from certain colleges and while they don't discriminate per say, they do tend to put the word out about hiring to those colleges and the professors there first
[QUOTE=Sableye;50971033]
[editline]29th August 2016[/editline]
[B]but would they have become a successful carpenter if they didnt get the degree[/B]. maybe they became a carpenter because of the history degree, [B]and what does it matter if they repay their loans and become successful? [/B]
colleges develope skills besides exactly what your degree is in[/QUOTE]
First, Carpentry as a trade requires high school level math and some guidance. At most the education required is equal to an associates, so you don't need a traditional college education for that. And there's countless examples of successful people in many different areas without degrees. College does develop skills besides those specific to your degree, but you can learn a lot of the same professional development skills just by working or being part of a union. The life skills you learn there are not exclusive to college, they are skills you develop from growing up and being an adult. I will say that Millenials don't have as many options as previous generations to be an independent adult ([I]back in my day I had my first car when I was 16 and bought my first house when I was 22...)[/I], but I will still argue that you don't need to go to college to develop life skills.
Second, paying off your loans is how banks work. If a lender keeps giving out money and there's no return, then 1) the lender loses all of their money and goes out of business, and 2) no one can take out a loan because there's no lenders, because no one repaid their loans.
[editline]29th August 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Biotoxsin;50971049]I had a feeling there would be some undue resistance.
Those programs are excellent at reducing recidivism and at making productive citizens out of people who are otherwise just costing society resources. There's no need for vindictiveness in our justice system. It's time we moved toward a more modern model. This is a step in the right direction.
[editline]29th August 2016[/editline]
I think you might not fully appreciate the benefit that having some secondary education has on lifetime earnings and quality of life. Consider the trans-generational effects of an individual having an education. [[URL="http://www.nccp.org/publications/pub_786.html"]1[/URL]] Even if a person doesn't graduate or find an occupation related to their degree they may still become more productive. There's a reason people stand behind the idea of liberal arts as general requirements for graduation.
Ethics, mathematics, introductory business, etc are always practical.[/QUOTE]
I am not trying to devalue education, I am trying to argue for investing in taxes-covered education. An education means nothing if either the [B]quality[/B] of the education is poor, or the pupil [B]is not willing to learn[/B]. Every year I see a ton of new students burn out because they spend their time goofing off and being independent rather than studying. That is not an issue if they are spending their own money, but it becomes a major issue when the public is funding kids to have a good time rather than becoming a more productive and skilled citizen.
Colleges are already oversaturated with these types of kids because they will take money from anyone. The upside is that for those who attend, you get fancy new buildings and sports stadiums. The downside is that the students have far larger class sizes making instruction difficult, fewer students return as they were accepted into programs not suited for their work ethic or interest, and fields with niche employment (especially humanities) become oversaturated with people who are taking the courses because they are easy rather than wanting to contribute to the field.
If a public university can only employ 5 History majors in a History-related job, then they shouldn't have graduating classes of 500 History majors. They should be far more competitive and shape the size of the program to reflect the public demand so that the students and the faculty have a much better environment for learning and teaching.
The amount of people who think "prisoners are all evil people who should just be tortured forever because they fucked up once and they deserve no chance afterwards of living a normal life" in this country is fucking astounding. Absolutely ridiculous
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