• Tosh.0 production assistant accidently killed by LA police
    138 replies, posted
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44519508]Because the US lost it's fucking mind and allowed the police to be "private entities", and further lost its mind and allowed them to buy military grade equipment and vehicles. All of a sudden the police are more PMC than they are police, and they suddenly get into the mindset of "we're the military" not "we're the police, we exist to enforce laws and protect people".[/QUOTE] I fail to see why allowing police to be well equipped for situations is a bad thing. They are not patrolling in armored vehicles with machine guns on top.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44519539]So we hold the police to a lower standard than the military, and allow the police to have the same equipment? This is why we have so many wrongful shootings, we just continually excuse it with "oh but he only had a little time to react". How about we stop giving them M4's and APC's until they actually improve their training regiments.[/QUOTE] I don't see how what gun they where using has any bearing in what happened here, in all likely hood they where using their service pistols. You cant train the human element out of the officer. Even the most highly trained officer most likely would have opened fire. Also I'm not sure how to respond to your military comparison. Im assuming if a soldier makes and honest and unavoidable mistake he isn't going to be sent to prison.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44519539]So we hold the police to a lower standard than the military, and allow the police to have the same equipment? This is why we have so many wrongful shootings, we just continually excuse it with "oh but he only had a little time to react". How about we stop giving them M4's and APC's until they actually improve their training regiments.[/QUOTE] for starters, assault rifles are usually purchased with personal income, not with department funding. second, apc's? since when did police patrol the streets with an apc. apc's are exclusively used in high threat level situations that calls for it. it's like you don't understand that not every criminal has only a knife or only a pistol. there are people out there with military-grade weapons that calls for an appropriate response to deal with it.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44519570] Because you gave them all the equipment and allowed them to get out of the mindset of "to serve and protect" and let them get into the mindset of "we're judge, jury, and executor, and god help you if you shoot one of us and then surrender, cause we'll still kill you".[/QUOTE] That has nothing to do what so ever with what happened here.
is ilikecorn yawmwen jr.??? literally calling large police departments "PMC's" and that they're acting as if they're "judge, jury, and executioner"
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44519621]Except he is, because "oops" doesn't fly very well when you kill someone. Like I said, these guys are going to go on paid leave, with 0 repremand, 0 extra training, and will be back on the street with little, if any, lessons learned. We need to stop letting the police in this country say "oops", again and again and again. Remember during the dorner case, they shot up a truck carrying 2 innocent ladies, and all they said was "oops". How many more "oops" moments are you willing to forgive before you say "fuck you, learn to use your weapons, learn to use PID, and stop acting like anything more than police".[/QUOTE] This was a [B]totally[/B] different situation than the donner incident. Some situations are unavoidable, some or not, this seems to be one that wasn't. They where acting like police should and unfortunately entered a difficult situation
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44519621] Except they act like it, and often times do act like judge, jury, and executioner. Anyone who sits there and says "yes the police are looking out for my wealthfare and safety" are pretty well ignorant of what the police are actually looking out for: Themselves, and their paycheck.[/QUOTE] holy fuck it's literally yawmwen jr.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44519652]Again, you're excusing them killing entirely innocent people based on "oh their job is stressful". Since when did this become OK? [/QUOTE] Jeez you argue like my girlfriend. I'm excusing them because when you look at the details of the situation they where in you can see how they made the decision they made and that it was reasonable.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44519709]No, I'm advocating that they shouldn't be put on paid leave for a few weeks, and instead should receive a letter of repremand, or should be sent to extra training. Paid leave isn't a punishment, as you're letting them off scot free for essentially murder.[/QUOTE] you do know it's standard protocol that whenever an officer shoots or kills somebody, they're put on paid leave/suspension until internal investigation is over right? this tells me you know jack shit about what actually happens in police departments.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44519751]Yes, I'm very well aware. How about instead of "hey here's free vacation" you say "hey, get your ass to training while we figure your shit out"? Your post tells me you didn't actually read mine, and instead typed this as quickly as possible to try and prove me wrong.[/QUOTE] training for what? the officers did exactly what they were trained to do. it's like you're saying they intentionally shot winkler and was planning to shoot him the entire time.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44519751]Yes, I'm very well aware. How about instead of "hey here's free vacation" you say "hey, get your ass to training while we figure your shit out"? Your post tells me you didn't actually read mine, and instead typed this as quickly as possible to try and prove me wrong.[/QUOTE] Oh my God he's right, you are yawnmen v2: anarchist boogaloo. This is the exact same thing he kept posting before he was vanished. It's not "free vacation". It's your career on the line, you will be constantly monitored to ensure that you aren't doing shit you shouldn't be up to (after all, they're paying you still, you on their clock). You will be called up to investigation officers regularly, etc. You don't get to sit on your ass twiddling your thumbs, administrative leave when your job, your livelihood is on the line is not something you take lightly unless you know with 100% certainty you did nothing wrong (you probably did something wrong).
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44519795]I dunno, maybe training in "hey don't shoot the first thing that walks out the door", that'd probably be a good thing to have.. Honestly they didn't have PID, they shot the first dude out the door and said "oops, wrong dude".[/QUOTE] first off: winkler was the second dude out the door. the first dude was a guy bleeding from the neck with winkler chasing after him. second: they got a call of a possible knife-wielding suspect with intent on using it. they responded with appropriate use of force.
you keep spouting off "pid! pid! pid!" i hope you know that the officers were only told by a witness that the suspect was a thin white man in a black t.
[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44519838]you keep spouting off "pid! pid! pid!" i hope you know that the officers were only told by a witness that the suspect was a thin white man in a black t.[/QUOTE] Exactly. They didn't know who the suspect was, but shot a man anyway, resulting in an innocent person being dead.
[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;44519477]i don't know why this is or why it's so successful here but i can imagine it's something to do with the image the police want to convey. it's the image of a fair fight and of protection for the population, not just about enforcement and control. when [I]one guy[/I] who was a known gangster and probably was armed moments before his death was shot in london a few years ago there was massive uproar against it. maybe that's a bit extreme but it just goes to show how the mentality of the UK public differs so much to the US, where here we demand a full explanation and investigation into why a single, admittedly terrible person was killed... yet in the US this happens like once a month if not more and the general consensus is just "oops well the victim was a bit dumb i guess oh well that's protocol cya next month" if the US police took more 'chances' instead of turning up with military-grade equipment to deal with stuff like a homeless guy possibly armed with a knife then maybe there'd have more respect for the police and there wouldn't be this somewhat-justified "fuck tha police" attitude, which pretty much doesn't exist in this country at all[/QUOTE] pretty spot on with how the police act in the US. the shit they'll say is astounding and they barely treat people like humans because they think that their job requires a display of force. There's been times I've been threatened to get carted off to jail for stuff that they cant charge me for or anything (because I was merely around people doing stupid shit or w/e). the whole reason you see people having this kind of attitude is because they act in such an unprofessional way and do a large amount of injustice to the people they're meant to protect. almost all of my peers hate law enforcement. i know saying that isnt really worth much on its own but when they talk about [I]why[/I] they do its evident that they wouldnt care if they didnt go around fucking over people's days and lives. so many people with that kind attitude seems to imply that theres something wrong!!
[QUOTE=mobrockers;44519924]Exactly. They didn't know who the suspect was, but shot a man anyway, resulting in an innocent person being dead.[/QUOTE] That's some spectacular spin, I'll give you that. They knew roughly what the suspect looked like, and it sounds like they made the decision based on the fact he must have looked something like the description, and lunged at the guy running away who was clearly a victim of something. I know it's hypothetical, but if the guy they shot had been the suspect, and they chose not to shoot, the bleeding dude would be dead as fuck. Yes, they fucked up, someone is likely going to lose their job over this (and not many places are going to hire an ex-cop who killed someone innocent I expect). And no doubt the guy who made the killing shot is going to feel just terrible.
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;44520011]pretty spot on with how the police act in the US. the shit they'll say is astounding and they barely treat people like humans because they think that their job requires a display of force. There's been times I've been threatened to get carted off to jail for stuff that they charge me for or anything (because I was merely around people doing stupid shit or w/e). the whole reason you see people having this kind of attitude is because they act in such an unprofessional way and do a large amount of injustice to the people they're meant to protect. almost all of my peers hate law enforcement. i know saying that isnt really worth much on its own but when they talk about [I]why[/I] they do its evident that they wouldnt care if they didnt go around fucking over people's days and lives. so many people with that kind attitude seems to imply that theres something wrong!![/QUOTE] how about you say that about police in georgia rather than the entirety of the US.
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;44520011]pretty spot on with how the police act in the US. the shit they'll say is astounding and they barely treat people like humans because they think that their job requires a display of force. There's been times I've been threatened to get carted off to jail for stuff that they charge me for or anything (because I was merely around people doing stupid shit or w/e). the whole reason you see people having this kind of attitude is because they act in such an unprofessional way and do a large amount of injustice to the people they're meant to protect. almost all of my peers hate law enforcement. i know saying that isnt really worth much on its own but when they talk about [I]why[/I] they do its evident that they wouldnt care if they didnt go around fucking over people's days and lives. so many people with that kind attitude seems to imply that theres something wrong!![/QUOTE] The way the US handles it police force seems like a bloody joke. They're meant to enforce laws, but aren't there to protect you (something they'd do to enforce a lot of the violent crime laws, so why not just do it). Every officer seems to be armed with at least a pistol or something, which isn't helping the people who are paranoid they're "going crazy with power" or whatever. And they don't wear silly hats like ours. What fun is a policeman without a silly hat?
[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44520077]how about you say that about police in georgia rather than the entirety of the US.[/QUOTE] *georgia
[QUOTE=hexpunK;44520082]The way the US handles it police force seems like a bloody joke. They're meant to enforce laws, but aren't there to protect you (something they'd do to enforce a lot of the violent crime laws, so why not just do it). Every officer seems to be armed with at least a pistol or something, which isn't helping the people who are paranoid they're "going crazy with power" or whatever. And they don't wear silly hats like ours. What fun is a policeman without a silly hat?[/QUOTE] Where did this idea that they are here not to protect to and to [I]solely[/I] enforce laws? For fucks sake everyone who thinks this needs to stop listening to what the media publishes and actually start educating themselves on law enforcement. Its the media's job to sell stories. Good news by a police officer doesnt sell because its their job.. but as soon as one fucks up everyone thinks its the entire system. Get your tin foil hats on and drink the kool-aid if you think that the police are here to violate your rights, shoot you, and then lie about it.
[QUOTE=Code3Response;44520182]Where did this idea that they are here not to protect to and to [I]solely[/I] enforce laws? For fucks sake everyone who thinks this needs to stop listening to what the media publishes and actually start educating themselves on law enforcement. Its the media's job to sell stories. Good news by a police officer doesnt sell because its their job.. but as soon as one fucks up everyone thinks its the entire system. Get your tin foil hats on and drink the kool-aid if you think that the police are here to violate your rights, shoot you, and then lie about it.[/QUOTE] Just going by what every other pleb who posts here from the US shouts in every thread about "home defences". Don't tend to actually get news about the US police over here strangely enough.
[QUOTE=Code3Response;44520182]Where did this idea that they are here not to protect to and to [I]solely[/I] enforce laws? For fucks sake everyone who thinks this needs to stop listening to what the media publishes and actually start educating themselves on law enforcement. Its the media's job to sell stories. Good news by a police officer doesnt sell because its their job.. but as soon as one fucks up everyone thinks its the entire system. Get your tin foil hats on and drink the kool-aid if you think that the police are here to violate your rights, shoot you, and then lie about it.[/QUOTE] maybe theres also a lot of legitimate problems with the system though and a lot of shite people who need to get weeded out you're acting just as sensationally
[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;44519610]for starters, assault rifles are usually purchased with personal income, not with department funding. second, apc's? since when did police patrol the streets with an apc. apc's are exclusively used in high threat level situations that calls for it. it's like you don't understand that not every criminal has only a knife or only a pistol. there are people out there with military-grade weapons that calls for an appropriate response to deal with it.[/QUOTE] I agree that there isn't anything wrong with AR-15's and SWAT departments having an armored vehicle. However. AR-15's are usually purchased with department funds across the United States. Or, barring that, M16A1's are available for free from the Federal Government to departments. Quartermasters don't like firearms that aren't a part of their stockpile. And no. There is basically nobody out there who uses military grade anything for crime. As an officer you have a responsibility not to parrot this falsehood. Not only are they not using military grade anything, they almost never use even semi-automatic replicas of military equipment. It is almost always handguns, and almost universally shitty ones, across the board. AR-15's are for folks who get clever with body armor.
beardy is right about their weapon outfitting though?
[QUOTE=GunFox;44520509]And no. There is basically nobody out there who uses military grade anything for crime. As an officer you have a responsibility not to parrot this falsehood. Not only are they not using military grade anything, they almost never use even semi-automatic replicas of military equipment. It is almost always handguns, and almost universally shitty ones, across the board. AR-15's are for folks who get clever with body armor.[/QUOTE] Well that good, because when you have criminals that use military grade you end up having cops use military grade, which costs not only the weapons but the training as well. In the end it becomes a warzone.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44520589]No. According to the FBI, the VAST majority of crime is committed by handguns: [url]http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8[/url] Handguns are by NO means "military grade". Your average criminal on the street isn't packing anything NEAR military grade.[/QUOTE] just because the majority of firearms used are handguns, doesn't mean we shouldn't be prepared in case of something more drastic. you're the same kind of person who advocates more funding for weapons and armor for police is bad. yet at the same time when something big happens that involves more than just a handgun, you criticize the police for not taking any action.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44520619]Sure. You just shouldn't have it in your patrol car. Keep it in an armory, for the swat team. Not for your average patrol officer. No, I'm the kind of person that says you should get more range time, so that you stop fucking up and killing people who don't need to be killed. I'm the kind of person who wants cops to be held accountable for their actions, both good and bad. I'm the kind of person that thinks that the police need way more oversight, and until we get it, we're going to keep having bullshit happen over and over and over again.[/QUOTE] That was the issue in the North Hollywood shootout. The SWAT team and armory had all the guns but gridlock traffic kept them from actually getting to the scene. Cops on the scene had to raid a gun store for useful firearms. Then you have issues with officers in rural areas being a long, LONG ways away from the armory or even another officer. Much of the United States remains heavily rural with extremely low officer densities. Ultimately it is a matter of training, rather than equipment.
As to why he may have lunged at the victim - Perhaps he had a brief moment of foresight that we are having in hindsight that running towards the police is a very poor idea. Perhaps he was trying to stop the victim from being shot?
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44520698]It doesn't matter what equipment they have if they only get a few hundred rounds per fiscal year to practice. You can have the most awesome rifle in the world, but if you've not practiced then you're shit out of luck. You might be thinking "but cops practice in their off time", they shouldn't have to do that, if they are going to carry a firearm, they should get MORE than enough practice while they are on duty.[/QUOTE] Oh I agree. Once or twice a month it would be nice for part of their shift to be dedicated to a couple of hours of firearms practice. Though that is extremely difficult for smaller departments. Most departments are shockingly underfunded and understaffed. That said, I'd gladly pay a bit extra in taxes for better LEO training. EDIT: Granted I remain of the opinion that standardizing all police pistols is stupid. If a cop wants a magazine fed pistol in an acceptable caliber that isn't the standard issue glock, then let them use it. You don't trust a gun you don't like. You do train more with a gun you enjoy though. But then you hear a bunch of bullshit about ammunition compatibility and being able to trade magazines in the field. Fuck that. If you are in a situation where you are out and you need to steal a mag from another officer, you are fucked to begin with. Let an officer choose his gun and he might enjoy practicing with it.
[QUOTE=Code3Response;44520182]Where did this idea that they are here not to protect to and to [I]solely[/I] enforce laws? For fucks sake everyone who thinks this needs to stop listening to what the media publishes and actually start educating themselves on law enforcement. Its the media's job to sell stories. Good news by a police officer doesnt sell because its their job.. but as soon as one fucks up everyone thinks its the entire system. Get your tin foil hats on and drink the kool-aid if you think that the police are here to violate your rights, shoot you, and then lie about it.[/QUOTE] I think the issue most have with police doing these sorts of things isn't that the police do it, but get away with it. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cases_of_police_brutality_in_the_United_States]The vast majority of cases involving police brutality end with the charges being dropped, the offenders getting a slap on the wrist or the department making an out-of-court settlement.[/url]
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