• Mass-murderer Anders Behring Breivik threatens to hunger-strike himself to death due to stricter pri
    359 replies, posted
[QUOTE=SwedishSpy;48796204]The prison system in most western countries is a joke. Human and prisoner rights shouldn't apply to [B]disgusting objects like mass-murderers, rapists, pedophiles and such[/B]. He should be [B]tortured to death as a punishment[/B]. [I]Some [B]subhuman scum[/B] cannot be rehabilitated[/I] and should be [i]removed from this world so they don't breathe the same air as people[/i] do.[/QUOTE] You sound like you need a psychotherapist as bad as Breivik does. You're a real piece of work.
If you aren't willing to be a functional part of society then why should you be treated by our standards?
[QUOTE=spekter;48796557]If you aren't willing to be a functional part of society then why should you be treated by our standards?[/QUOTE] You realise that if we think that way, all that separates us from him is the fact that we are the majority, right?
[QUOTE=spekter;48796557]If you aren't willing to be a functional part of society then why should you be treated by our standards?[/QUOTE] Why put yourself on his level? Why? Answer that for yourself
[QUOTE=spekter;48796557]If you aren't willing to be a functional part of society then why should you be treated by our standards?[/QUOTE] What a meaningless string of drivel this is. Why should criminals of any sort be treated by our standards for criminals? I dunno, maybe because they are the standards we have defined for caring for criminal individuals? Not really a standard if you have exception after exception is it?
[QUOTE=SwedishSpy;48796204]The prison system in most western countries is a joke. Human and prisoner rights shouldn't apply to disgusting objects like mass-murderers, rapists, pedophiles and such. He should be tortured to death as a punishment. Some subhuman scum cannot be rehabilitated and should be removed from this world so they don't breathe the same air as people do.[/QUOTE] Seek help.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48796446]Why? None of those things actually DO anything. It's purely an emotional bloodlust. Are you yourself a bloodthirsty murderer? Sounds like it, you just pretend you're not by dressing it up with "Only bad people should die" which is just as bloodthirsty as can be.[/QUOTE] It would send a message to all future rapists and such about what happens afterwards, when they get arrested. Would someone rape, kill or molest children if they knew they'd get tortured when caught? And I'm not a bloodthirsty murderer. I just have a different view on crime & punishment when it comes to certain crimes. [QUOTE=CoilingTesla;48796507]You sound like you need a psychotherapist as bad as Breivik does. You're a real piece of work.[/QUOTE] I'm insane for not seeing rapists, mass murderers and child pedophiles as human beings? Someone that's capable of causing such phyiscal and mental harm to others should not exist on this world. The world doesn't need them since thy cannot contribute to society in any way. Maybe we could use them for medical experiments or something. That's the only way they could contribute to society. [editline]30th September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Crimor;48796626]Seek help.[/QUOTE] Why? Because I have a different opinion on crime & punishment?
[QUOTE=SwedishSpy;48796628]It would send a message to all future rapists and such about what happens afterwards, when they get arrested. Would someone rape, kill or molest children if they knew they'd get tortured when caught? And I'm not a bloodthirsty murderer. I just have a different view on crime & punishment when it comes to certain crimes. [/QUOTE] Uh yes they'll still commit those crimes because deterrents don't work. What? Do you think America is the land of no murders? They have the death penalty which takes 10 years of being in hell to get to anyways. Can you tell me, do you think a crime of passion can be stopped by a deterrent? Think about it for MORE than 10 seconds. Does a crime of passion, an action in the heat of the moment, HAVE ANY CHANCE of being stopped by deterrent crime policies? NONE WHAT SO EVER. People will still do those things regardless of how evil, bloodthirsty, and zealous YOU are. And all the while, you're just advocating to become MORE AND MORE like the people you want to have in jail being tortured. Do you not think advocating for torture puts you THAT much closer to the murderer or violent criminal? Think about it like this; You're saying "TORTURE THIS FUCKING SHIT" And I'm saying "Don't do that, it's pointless waste of our time" Who's more obviously emotional? You. [QUOTE]I'm insane for not seeing rapists, mass murderers and child pedophiles as human beings? Someone that's capable of causing such phyiscal and mental harm to others should not exist on this world. The world doesn't need them since thy cannot contribute to society in any way. Maybe we could use them for medical experiments or something. That's the only way they could contribute to society.[/QUOTE] Yes. You are insane for NOT SEEING A HUMAN BEING AS A FUCKING HUMAN BEING.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48796657]Uh yes they'll still commit those crimes because deterrents don't work. What? Do you think America is the land of no murders? They have the death penalty which takes 10 years of being in hell to get to anyways. Can you tell me, do you think a crime of passion can be stopped by a deterrent? Think about it for MORE than 10 seconds. Does a crime of passion, an action in the heat of the moment, HAVE ANY CHANCE of being stopped by deterrent crime policies? NONE WHAT SO EVER. People will still do those things regardless of how evil, bloodthirsty, and zealous YOU are. And all the while, you're just advocating to become MORE AND MORE like the people you want to have in jail being tortured. Do you not think advocating for torture puts you THAT much closer to the murderer or violent criminal? Think about it like this; You're saying "TORTURE THIS FUCKING SHIT" And I'm saying "Don't do that, it's pointless waste of our time" Who's more obviously emotional? You. Yes. You are insane for NOT SEEING A HUMAN BEING AS A FUCKING HUMAN BEING.[/QUOTE] Dude I agree with you but you need to stop getting so emotional when arguing your points.
[QUOTE=SwedishSpy;48796628]It would send a message to all future rapists and such about what happens afterwards, when they get arrested. Would someone rape, kill or molest children if they knew they'd get tortured when caught? And I'm not a bloodthirsty murderer. I just have a different view on crime & punishment when it comes to certain crimes. I'm insane for not seeing rapists, mass murderers and child pedophiles as human beings? Someone that's capable of causing such phyiscal and mental harm to others should not exist on this world. The world doesn't need them since thy cannot contribute to society in any way. Maybe we could use them for medical experiments or something. That's the only way they could contribute to society. [editline]30th September 2015[/editline] Why? Because I have a different opinion on crime & punishment?[/QUOTE] You're exactly the same as Breivik, only you haven't killed 70 children yet. Get help before you become "subhuman scum".
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48796657]Uh yes they'll still commit those crimes because deterrents don't work. What? Do you think America is the land of no murders? They have the death penalty which takes 10 years of being in hell to get to anyways. Can you tell me, do you think a crime of passion can be stopped by a deterrent? Think about it for MORE than 10 seconds. Does a crime of passion, an action in the heat of the moment, HAVE ANY CHANCE of being stopped by deterrent crime policies? NONE WHAT SO EVER. People will still do those things regardless of how evil, bloodthirsty, and zealous YOU are. And all the while, you're just advocating to become MORE AND MORE like the people you want to have in jail being tortured. Do you not think advocating for torture puts you THAT much closer to the murderer or violent criminal? Think about it like this; You're saying "TORTURE THIS FUCKING SHIT" And I'm saying "Don't do that, it's pointless waste of our time" Who's more obviously emotional? You. Yes. You are insane for NOT SEEING A HUMAN BEING AS A FUCKING HUMAN BEING.[/QUOTE] The problem with the American death penalty is that it's painless. Using some less civilized methods of execution that cause immense pain would work as a deterrent. No country with credible statistics (western democracies) have tried having death penalty by torture but I do believe that some disgusting crimes such as rape and murder could be prevented if the would-be rapist or murderer knew what kind of punishment he'd get. And no, I do not believe that advocating torture and death penalty puts me closer to murderers and violent criminals. A murderer kills an innocent victim while I advocate the execution of someone that has committed a gruesome crime. And I'm sorry, but I cannot view someone that can rape, murder, molest children or something disgusting like that as a human being. That means that the rapist or murderer has an equal value like me, you and every other person on this planet. Should a rapist or murderer be valued as high as a human being?
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;48796762]Dude I agree with you but you need to stop getting so emotional when arguing your points.[/QUOTE] See, you think I'm emotional, but I'm not. I'm not even slightly emotional but hey, you know me really well I guess
[QUOTE=CoilingTesla;48796766]You're exactly the same as Breivik, only you haven't killed 70 children yet. Get help before you become "subhuman scum".[/QUOTE] How am I like Breivik? What kind of argument is that? What makes you think I'd do something that would classify me as subhuman scum? Please do elaborate. My views on crime and punishment happen to be different but I still respect other people's views on the subject and listen to their arguments. I would never commit a killing spree because unlike Breivik and others like him, I know that murdering innocent people is wrong.
[QUOTE=SwedishSpy;48796787]The problem with the American death penalty is that it's painless. Using some less civilized methods of execution that cause immense pain would work as a deterrent. [/QUOTE] Myth. It's actually quite painful and it's not even possible to be killed by lethal injection anymore. [QUOTE]No country with credible statistics (western democracies) have tried having death penalty by torture but I do believe that some disgusting crimes such as rape and murder could be prevented if the would-be rapist or murderer knew what kind of punishment he'd get. [/QUOTE] Uhm, you're not thinking about this at all. At all. If a rapist was going to rape someone, as an impulsive action, something they aren't thinking about, how does anything deter them from that? How does torture deter them from that when they aren't going to be considering that kind of shit, at all? [QUOTE]And no, I do not believe that advocating torture and death penalty puts me closer to murderers and violent criminals. A murderer kills an innocent victim while I advocate the execution of someone that has committed a gruesome crime.[/QUOTE] So, you can differ yourself from them via who you want to kill. You just want to kill the right people. How do you know the killers you're killing also didn't just consider themselves "Killing the right people"? Do you see how nothing actually separates you but an arbitrary line YOU yourself define much like a murderer would? [QUOTE]And I'm sorry, but I cannot view someone that can rape, murder, molest children or something disgusting like that as a human being. That means that the rapist or murderer has an equal value like me, you and every other person on this planet. Should a rapist or murderer be valued as high as a human being?[/QUOTE] They are human beings after all so yes. Committing a gruesome action doesn't make you "Not a human being". It makes you a criminal and a horrible person, but you are STILL A PERSON.
[QUOTE=SwedishSpy;48796787]The problem with the American death penalty is that it's painless. Using some less civilized methods of execution that cause immense pain would work as a deterrent. No country with credible statistics (western democracies) have tried having death penalty by torture but I do believe that some disgusting crimes such as rape and murder could be prevented if the would-be rapist or murderer knew what kind of punishment he'd get. And no, I do not believe that advocating torture and death penalty puts me closer to murderers and violent criminals. A murderer kills an innocent victim while I advocate the execution of someone that has committed a gruesome crime. And I'm sorry, but I cannot view someone that can rape, murder, molest children or something disgusting like that as a human being. That means that the rapist or murderer has an equal value like me, you and every other person on this planet. Should a rapist or murderer be valued as high as a human being?[/QUOTE] This is why ancient and medieval societies had such lower rates of rape and murder.
[QUOTE=SwedishSpy;48796827]How am I like Breivik? What kind of argument is that? What makes you think I'd do something that would classify me as subhuman scum? Please do elaborate. My views on crime and punishment happen to be different but I still respect other people's views on the subject and listen to their arguments. I would never commit a killing spree because unlike Breivik and others like him, I know that murdering innocent people is wrong.[/QUOTE] Okay, lets run this through because you've never run it through for yourself at all. Anders Brevik is a murderer who justified his murders by defining his victims as subhuman. You, are advocating for the death of all people YOU consider subhuman. The only actual difference is, he's killed people, and you just want people killed FOR you.
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;48795981]I fail to understand how you can make that connection. Are you seriously comparing a human being to an animal?[/QUOTE] Humans are animals. Smarter, and more thumb having, but still animals.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48796814]See, you think I'm emotional, but I'm not. I'm not even slightly emotional but hey, you know me really well I guess[/QUOTE] You're capitalising a lot of words in your posts, which is the typographical equivalent of shouting, and you are directing a lot of anger at him with your wording. That seems pretty emotional to me.
[QUOTE=SwedishSpy;48796787]The problem with the American death penalty is that it's painless. Using some less civilized methods of execution that cause immense pain would work as a deterrent.[/QUOTE] No, it wouldn't. Tell me how many crime deterrents throughout history have actually deterred crime in any meaningful amount. That is, any that doesn't amount to "kill every single criminal so there's no second crime from them". [QUOTE]No country with credible statistics (western democracies) have tried having death penalty by torture but I do believe that some disgusting crimes such as rape and murder could be prevented if the would-be rapist or murderer knew what kind of punishment he'd get.[/QUOTE] No country with credible statistics has tried the death penalty by torture because torture is, in the first place, utterly irrelevant to any form of justice system ever. We do not live in 1000 A.D., where we torture people to confess to crimes they probably didn't commit and then hang, draw, and quarter them. The law exists to provide justice, not revenge or any form of sadistic punishment. [QUOTE]And no, I do not believe that advocating torture and death penalty puts me closer to murderers and violent criminals. A murderer kills an innocent victim while I advocate the execution of someone that has committed a gruesome crime.[/QUOTE] You advocate the death of another human being because you see them as below you due to crimes they have committed. The only difference is you're giving someone in a position to lawfully execute someone the honour instead of dirtying your own hands so you can feel better about yourself. [QUOTE]And I'm sorry, but I cannot view someone that can rape, murder, molest children or something disgusting like that as a human being. That means that the rapist or murderer has an equal value like me, you and every other person on this planet. Should a rapist or murderer be valued as high as a human being?[/QUOTE] Ever wondered why you aren't in any position that allows you to enact justice? This is why. Doesn't matter what your personal feelings on a rapist, murderer, or jaywalker is. Emotional response has nothing to do with dispensing justice. Every single human being alive, regardless of their inclinations, criminal record, or whatever they have done, is a human being. They can be a terrible human being, yes, but they are still a human being. Dehumanizing them does literally nothing, accomplishes nothing, and simply proves that you are far too emotionally invested to ever have a valid opinion about how any country dispenses justice.
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;48796863]You're capitalising a lot of words in your posts, which is the typographical equivalent of shouting, and you are directing a lot of anger at him with your wording. That seems pretty emotional to me.[/QUOTE] That's the way I type. I'm not emotional. But hey, again, you think you know me really well here, so have at it. I'm not writing essays, I'm not going to bother acting like I am. This is how I type when I type forum posts. If you don't like it, I don't really care. This is how I type for a forum like this.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48794341]Define "fixed"[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=paul simon;48794316][citation needed][/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Explosions;48794543]Wow where's your award winning psychology paper on this subject, Doctor?[/QUOTE] It's from 2013. You're late as fuck if you're just now finding this out. [quote]The first pair of court-appointed psychiatrists had 13 interviews covering a total of 36 hours with Breivik, in addition to hearing or viewing all police interrogations and interviewing his mother. They combined unstructured talks with structured diagnostic interviews, including the Mini-International Neuropsychiatric Interview, the Structured Clinical Interview for DSM-IV Axis I Disorders (SCID-I) and the Positive and Negative Syndrome Scale (PANSS). ... [b]On November 29, 2011, the psychiatrists reported to the court that Breivik was psychotic while planning and implementing his acts and during the evaluation.[/b] As later explained during the trial, this conclusion was based on central contents of Breivik's thought system. [b]He told them in the interviews that he had “precedence as the ideological leader for the Knights Templars organization, with the mandate of being both a military order, a martyr organization, a military tribunal, judge, jury and executioner”. He thought he was a pioneer in a European civil war, and compared his situation to that of Tsar Nicolas of Russia and Queen Isabella of Spain. He believed that it was likely (with somewhat varying degrees of likelihood) that he could be the new regent in Norway following a coup d’état. He said he decided who should live and who should die in Norway. This responsibility was felt as real, but also a heavy burden. He believed that a considerable proportion of the Norwegian population (several hundred thousands) supported his deeds. If he became the new regent, he would take the name Sigurd the Crusader the Second (Sigurd the Crusader was a Norwegian medieval king who reclaimed parts of Portugal from Muslim rule). He claimed that he had given 5 million NOK to the fight. He thought he would be given the responsibility for deporting several hundred thousands of Muslims to North Africa. He believed there was an ongoing ethnic cleansing in Norway and feared for his life. He thought the events he was a part of could start a nuclear third world war. He worked with solutions to improve the Norwegian ethnic genetic pool, make illnesses extinct, and reduce the divorce rate. He thought about reservations for indigenous Norwegians, DNA testing, and factories for mass deliveries of babies. He believed that the house of Glucksburg (current Norwegian royal house) would be removed through revolution in 2020. As an alternative to recruiting a new regent from the leadership of the Knights Templars, one could make DNA tests of the remains of King Olav the Saint (the Viking King who introduced Christianity to Norway) and then choose the one with best genetic likeness to be the new king.[/b] The psychiatrists saw these as grandiose delusions with bizarre and paranoid qualities that went far beyond conspiracy notions about an Islamist take-over of Europe. Thus, they did not consider him psychotic by mistaking his extremist, racist, right-wing views as delusional, but because they thought he had grandiose delusions regarding his own role in this extremist universe. Although his political opinions unfortunately are shared by others, he stood alone in his claims of an exalted role in the alleged Knights Templars organization, or even in the claims of this organization's existence. [b]In addition, Breivik claimed he had exceptional personal abilities, for instance knowing what other people — including his evaluators — thought, without fully explaining them how.[/b] The two psychiatrists perceived his language as stilted and technical, using common words in new contexts mixed with unusual words, which he said he had made himself and that the psychiatrists perceived as neologisms. There were otherwise no signs of grossly disorganized speech or actions. [b]He usually displayed restricted, but sometimes also inappropriate affect when talking about his killings, which he called “the executions of traitors”. He got animated when talking about his shooting rampage and about his Manifesto. The psychiatrists saw this as an example of affective flattening with incidents of incongruent affect.[/b] There were no outward signs of depression, mania, auditory hallucinations or ideas of reference, influence phenomena or ideas of thought insertion. He had taken anabolic steroids in several periods up to July 22, combined with large doses of ephedrine, caffeine, and aspirin on the actual day. Blood samples taken at his arrest showed these substances in amounts that most likely could exacerbate, but not directly cause, mental symptoms. [b]Based on Breivik's symptomatology, in particular the presence of bizarre grandiose delusions, the psychiatrists concluded that he had schizophrenia, paranoid type.[/b][/quote] [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3619172/[/url] So we're dealing with a violent paranoid-schizophrenic who shot 77 people (mainly teenagers) to death because, in his own words, he's apparently leading the Knights Templars as a revolutionary European organization with intent of forcibly removing millions of Muslims and immigrants from Norway after he deposes the current royal family of Norway, the House of Glucksburg, and assumes the responsibilities of a genocidal State Regent who will start World War III as a nuclear holocaust under the name Sigurd II the Crusader, in the likeness of an actual 12th century Medieval Norwegian king who fought the Muslims in Portugal, because, according to him, hundreds of thousands of Norwegian citizens support him in his cause to create an ethnically-homogenous and racially-purified nation... oh-- and he's also telepathic and can read people's minds/influence them. Show of hands right now: how many people out there are so fucking dense about mental illness that they can't see that this man is extremely insane? Like, batshit insane beyond the point of ever achieving a state of normalcy? On his beliefs alone, he's insane. Now add on top of that the fact that he killed DOZENS of people because of his insane beliefs... you would have to be the [i]stupidest[/i] motherfucker alive to not see how far beyond help this man is, and it would be hilarious to see you try and sit down and reason with him. Hell, it would be hilarious to watch you people sit down and try to deal with true criminals in general as if you had any idea what you were doing lol. You'd be eaten alive with your approach. I can't believe people don't understand this and can still be so overly-sympathetic towards such a dangerously insane human being. Or maybe you do understand and you just don't want to admit that you understand because then you'd have to backpedal on your previous arguments and beliefs about how he should be treated; you like telling everyone else how he should be treated and accommodated, but if you actually had to help treat him and accommodate him, you wouldn't be able to live up to your views. Anders Breivik is never going to have a normal life ever again on the basis of his horrible mental health state alone that led him to do what he did in the first place (nevermind the argument on whether or not he should even be [i]allowed[/i] to live a normal life again assuming it was possible because of the fact he stole in cold blood the lives of 77 innocent people that can never be replaced); he's not incompetent, he's just insane. I don't believe any honest, rational, informed person could contest that he's fucked up beyond rehabilitation, or even moral redemption for that matter. [QUOTE=Headhumpy;48795981]I fail to understand how you can make that connection. Are you seriously comparing a human being to an animal?[/QUOTE] Human beings [i]are[/i] animals. This is a biological fact. We are not special or above animals; we're as much a part of nature as any other living creature on this planet is. Behaviorally, we are comparable to other intelligent animals that live in this world too. We can undergo conditioning to stimuli like they can and exhibit responses like they can, we grow and mature physically, we consume matter and convert it for our bodies to use, we reproduce, etc. Our brains are different from other animals, and this influences our behavior to make us different from other species, but that doesn't mean we've transcended to a state beyond other animals... Do people just reject natural sciences nowadays because these facts make them uncomfortable, or are they just not taught as well as they should be anymore? I'm so sick of this fucking argument.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48796836]Myth. It's actually quite painful and it's not even possible to be killed by lethal injection anymore. Uhm, you're not thinking about this at all. At all. If a rapist was going to rape someone, as an impulsive action, something they aren't thinking about, how does anything deter them from that? How does torture deter them from that when they aren't going to be considering that kind of shit, at all? So, you can differ yourself from them via who you want to kill. You just want to kill the right people. How do you know the killers you're killing also didn't just consider themselves "Killing the right people"? Do you see how nothing actually separates you but an arbitrary line YOU yourself define much like a murderer would? They are human beings after all so yes. Committing a gruesome action doesn't make you "Not a human being". It makes you a criminal and a horrible person, but you are STILL A PERSON.[/QUOTE] Then I stand corrected about the US death penalty but it does not change my support for death penalty by torture. Okay, you have a point there regarding impulsive actions. But after all, the victim's family would get proper justice. The criminal would get to experience the same pain and suffering as the victim did. Putting rapists and murderers in a prison cell with internet, a gaming console, television and such is like rewarding them for their gruesome acts. It boils down to how you define "the right people to kill". My definition of the right people to kill is based on already established laws and ethics. Taking someone's life without a legitimate reason is wrong. The only situation where murder is justified is defending your own life. A murderer has views on ethics and law that are incompatible with the rest of a functioning society. It means that my view on "the right people to kill" is logical since it's based on laws and ethics and not on the twisted views that a murderer has. And I believe that a proper human being shouldn't be capable of raping, murdering and molesting children. Therefore, those who commit those crimes are not human beings in my opinion.
[QUOTE=Govna;48796876]It's from 2013. You're late as fuck if you're just now finding this out. [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3619172/[/url] So we're dealing with a violent paranoid-schizophrenic who shot 77 people (mainly teenagers) to death because, in his own words, he's apparently leading the Knights Templars as a revolutionary European organization with intent of forcibly removing millions of Muslims and immigrants from Norway after he deposes the current royal family of Norway, the House of Glucksburg, and assumes the responsibilities of a genocidal State Regent who will start World War III as a nuclear holocaust under the name Sigurd II the Crusader, in the likeness of an actual 12th century Medieval Norwegian king who fought the Muslims in Portugal, because, according to him, hundreds of thousands of Norwegian citizens support him in his cause to create an ethnically-homogenous and racially-purified nation... oh-- and he's also telepathic and can read people's minds/influence them. Show of hands right now: how many people out there are so fucking dense about mental illness that they can't see that this man is extremely insane? Like, batshit insane beyond the point of ever achieving a state of normalcy? On his beliefs alone, he's insane. Now add on top of that the fact that he killed DOZENS of people because of his insane beliefs... you would have to be the [i]stupidest[/i] motherfucker alive to not see how far beyond help this man is, and it would be hilarious to see you try and sit down and reason with him. Hell, it would be hilarious to watch you people sit down and try to deal with true criminals in general as if you had any idea what you were doing lol. You'd be eaten alive with your approach. I can't believe people don't understand this and can still be so overly-sympathetic towards such a dangerously insane human being. Or maybe you do understand and you just don't want to admit that you understand because then you'd have to backpedal on your previous arguments and beliefs about how he should be treated; you like telling everyone else how he should be treated and accommodated, but if you actually had to help treat him and accommodate him, you wouldn't be able to live up to your views. Anders Breivik is never going to have a normal life ever again on the basis of his horrible mental health state alone that led him to do what he did in the first place (nevermind the argument on whether or not he should even be [i]allowed[/i] to live a normal life again assuming it was possible because of the fact he stole in cold blood the lives of 77 innocent people that can never be replaced); he's not incompetent, he's just insane. I don't believe any honest, rational, informed person could contest that he's fucked up beyond rehabilitation, or even moral redemption for that matter.[/QUOTE] I don't think anyone ever denied the fact that he's insane. What people are rejecting is the notion that he will never change. There is still the slimmest chance, however unlikely, that he might recover from his mental illness. And even if he doesn't, so what? People here are proposing that we torture and kill him for what he did, in the interest of some poorly-defined, warped sense of justice. That is the view that the rest of us are contesting. [editline]1st October 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=SwedishSpy;48796909]Then I stand corrected about the US death penalty but it does not change my support for death penalty by torture. Okay, you have a point there regarding impulsive actions. But after all, the victim's family would get proper justice. The criminal would get to experience the same pain and suffering as the victim did. Putting rapists and murderers in a prison cell with internet, a gaming console, television and such is like rewarding them for their gruesome acts. It boils down to how you define "the right people to kill". My definition of the right people to kill is based on already established laws and ethics. Taking someone's life without a legitimate reason is wrong. The only situation where murder is justified is defending your own life. A murderer has views on ethics and law that are incompatible with the rest of a functioning society. It means that my view on "the right people to kill" is logical since it's based on laws and ethics and not on the twisted views that a murderer has. And I believe that a proper human being shouldn't be capable of raping, murdering and molesting children. Therefore, those who commit those crimes are not human beings in my opinion.[/QUOTE] Why do you want to torture people? What benefit will it bring to society as a whole? Will it reduce recidivism rates and crime rates? Will it somehow improve the lives of the victims? Will it bring people back to life? Will it unrape women and unmolest children?
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;48796913]I don't think anyone ever denied the fact that he's insane. What people are rejecting is the notion that he will never change. There is still the slimmest chance, however unlikely, that he might recover from his mental illness. And even if he doesn't, so what? People here are proposing that we torture and kill him for what he did, in the interest of some poorly-defined, warped sense of justice. That is the view that the rest of us are contesting.[/QUOTE] Paranoid schizophrenia doesn't work that way. You treat it, you do not cure it because it cannot be cured. And even then treatment is unreliable because of the fact that so many patients who are diagnosed with it refuse to accept their diagnosis, or if they do accept it, then you've still got to deal with the probability of them suddenly deciding one day that they're better and they don't need to take their medications anymore (which is of course a very bad idea). Couple this with the fact that he, again, is violent and has killed 77 people in a massacre he organized based off of extreme delusions of grandeur about himself and others around him. He will not recover. Ever. In fact, he's a massive risk just being alive, and killing him would actually solve a lot of concerns about what could possibly happen with him in the future-- not to mention give people a sense of satisfaction and comfort knowing that he, being such a dangerous individual (which he is) with no regard for innocent life, is dead and gone. I really don't care. Norway and the Norwegians can do whatever they want to with him. He's not our problem/my problem. I didn't know anyone who he killed. If they want to keep him incarcerated under these extremely comfortable living conditions for the rest of his life, that's fine; I'm not paying for it, and I'm in no way a victim of what he did.
[QUOTE=Taggart;48796864]No, it wouldn't. Tell me how many crime deterrents throughout history have actually deterred crime in any meaningful amount. That is, any that doesn't amount to "kill every single criminal so there's no second crime from them". No country with credible statistics has tried the death penalty by torture because torture is, in the first place, utterly irrelevant to any form of justice system ever. We do not live in 1000 A.D., where we torture people to confess to crimes they probably didn't commit and then hang, draw, and quarter them. The law exists to provide justice, not revenge or any form of sadistic punishment. You advocate the death of another human being because you see them as below you due to crimes they have committed. The only difference is you're giving someone in a position to lawfully execute someone the honour instead of dirtying your own hands so you can feel better about yourself. Ever wondered why you aren't in any position that allows you to enact justice? This is why. Doesn't matter what your personal feelings on a rapist, murderer, or jaywalker is. Emotional response has nothing to do with dispensing justice. Every single human being alive, regardless of their inclinations, criminal record, or whatever they have done, is a human being. They can be a terrible human being, yes, but they are still a human being. Dehumanizing them does literally nothing, accomplishes nothing, and simply proves that you are far too emotionally invested to ever have a valid opinion about how any country dispenses justice.[/QUOTE] Every opinion is valid..or are you some sort of expert on what opinions are valid or invalid? It's not about emotions, it's about the fact that putting rapists and murderers in a luxurious prison cell with an internet connection, television and gaming console is not a punishment. It's a reward for their disgusting crimes. Most western governments fail to dispense justice properly for disgusting acts. And it is apparent that our views on justice are different. For me, justice is a proper punishment when it comes to gruesome crimes such as rape and murder. And once again, a human being should be able to commit such disgusting crimes against their fellow human beings. Therefore, a rapist or murderer cannot be a human being.
[QUOTE=SwedishSpy;48796909]Then I stand corrected about the US death penalty but it does not change my support for death penalty by torture.[/QUOTE] I doubt anything will quell your bloodlust if logic and reason so far haven't. This is why people want you to seek help. You have a similar mindset to a killer because you lack empathy, compassion with people you dislike, let alone with anyone else if all it takes is a single action to go from "Human" to "Untermensch". [QUOTE]Okay, you have a point there regarding impulsive actions. But after all, the victim's family would get proper justice. The criminal would get to experience the same pain and suffering as the victim did. Putting rapists and murderers in a prison cell with internet, a gaming console, television and such is like rewarding them for their gruesome acts. [/QUOTE] How do you decide "Proper justice"? Is "Proper Justice" retribution? Says who? In modern society, we don't see that as "Justice" but as "Vengeance" and vengeance and justice are wildly different concepts. Do you think criminals DON'T experience suffering? What do you think made them become criminals in the first place? How do you think poor people turn to crime? Through suffering and desiring a better life. People like Mr Brevik are just insane and there is no helping them, or likely to be no helping them. But to kill them, and torture them to "Deter" people(Which you admit is a bullshit reason, so you have to come up with another one) or to get "Proper Justice" is a misunderstanding of what the justice system is for. It is not for you to get your hands bloody vicariously. [QUOTE]It boils down to how you define "the right people to kill". My definition of the right people to kill is based on already established laws and ethics. Taking someone's life without a legitimate reason is wrong. The only situation where murder is justified is defending your own life. A murderer has views on ethics and law that are incompatible with the rest of a functioning society. It means that my view on "the right people to kill" is logical since it's based on laws and ethics and not on the twisted views that a murderer has.[/QUOTE] Except based on already established laws and ethics, being "The Punisher" from Marvel comics is illegal and casting asperions of death upon anyone who commits a crime is little more than being a bloodthirsty vigilante, a fucking criminal after all. Internalizing that INTO the justice system so the justice system itself is a system of violent retribution is not going to help anything. Do you want to know why I know that it won't do anything? Because for ALL of our history, we did that. And for ALL of our history, we FAILED UTTERLY AND ENTIRELY to quell the misery of crime and violence with more violence. You are wrong. Flat out fucking historically wrong. [QUOTE]And I believe that a proper human being shouldn't be capable of raping, murdering and molesting children. Therefore, those who commit those crimes are not human beings in my opinion.[/QUOTE] What you believe about people has no relevance on the reality of their humanity. Again, seek help. You truly believe you are a diviner of human value, you truly believe you are above other people, and THAT'S what makes you like Brevik, more than like a sane person.
[QUOTE=SwedishSpy;48796972]Every opinion is valid..or are you some sort of expert on what opinions are valid or invalid? It's not about emotions, it's about the fact that putting rapists and murderers in a luxurious prison cell with an internet connection, television and gaming console is not a punishment. It's a reward for their disgusting crimes. Most western governments fail to dispense justice properly for disgusting acts. And it is apparent that our views on justice are different. For me, justice is a proper punishment when it comes to gruesome crimes such as rape and murder. And once again, a human being should be able to commit such disgusting crimes against their fellow human beings. Therefore, a rapist or murderer cannot be a human being.[/QUOTE] Which planet are rapists from and which planet are murderers from? Are rapists from Mars and murderers from Planet X? Or are they demons spawned from the Underworld? I'm still waiting for you to explain why the ancient and medieval world wasn't extremely peaceful, considering that people were routinely and publicly tortured to death for crimes that are far more trivial than rape or murder.
[QUOTE=SwedishSpy;48796972]Every opinion is valid..or are you some sort of expert on what opinions are valid or invalid?[/QUOTE] "Gravity doesn't exist" "The earth is flat" both opinions. Both are wrong. Opinions can be wrong. Your opinions on this issue are not supported by reality. They are not supported by what happens in real life. Your views cannot be used to create a model of reality that is accurate. So why is it right if all it is is incorrect and factually unsupported? [QUOTE]It's not about emotions, it's about the fact that putting rapists and murderers in a luxurious prison cell with an internet connection, television and gaming console is not a punishment. It's a reward for their disgusting crimes. Most western governments fail to dispense justice properly for disgusting acts. [/QUOTE] I believe that in order to classify someone as "Subhuman" you NEED to be emotional, and you need an emotional detachment at the same time to justify their death without a thought as you clearly have. I don't disagree that those things hardly seem like something they deserve. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean torturing them actually benefits society, YOU AND ME, at all. Torturing them doesn't create a better world. It doesn't stop them. It doesn't make them better. It makes them worse. Do you know what American Prisons are known as to criminals? What they happily refer to them as? Con-College. It's a place they go in soft, and come out harder than ever, and more ready to commit crimes than ever. And in that system, it's ALL about what you like. It's all about torture, punishment, deprivation. And yet, UNDER YOUR SYSTEM, they come out to be more dangerous than ever. So you are again, wrong, incorrect, factually unsupported. [QUOTE]And it is apparent that our views on justice are different. For me, justice is a proper punishment when it comes to gruesome crimes such as rape and murder. [/QUOTE] Unless you can define proper justice without just using "Proper justice" as it's own self defining term, you can stop trying to argue that because it's worthless. [QUOTE]And once again, a human being should be able to commit such disgusting crimes against their fellow human beings. Therefore, a rapist or murderer cannot be a human being.[/QUOTE] Again, how YOU feel is not an indicator of anything but how tenuous your grasp on reality really is.
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;48796913]Why do you want to torture people? What benefit will it bring to society as a whole? Will it reduce recidivism rates and crime rates? Will it somehow improve the lives of the victims? Will it bring people back to life? Will it unrape women and unmolest children?[/QUOTE] Because most western governments fail to properly dispense justice for the most hideous crimes one can commit. As stated before, for me, justice is proper punishment. This doesn't mean that shoplifters or burglars should be executed. They have a chance at rehabilitation still. You have a point, it will not change what has happened but it can send a message to everyone contemplating to commit those crimes that society will punish them for their acts, unless it's an impulsive act. In that case, there will be proper justice for the victim and/or their relatives.
[QUOTE=SwedishSpy;48797025]Because most western governments fail to properly dispense justice for the most hideous crimes one can commit. As stated before, for me, justice is proper punishment. This doesn't mean that shoplifters or burglars should be executed. They have a chance at rehabilitation still. You have a point, it will not change what has happened but it can send a message to everyone contemplating to commit those crimes that society will punish them for their acts, unless it's an impulsive act. In that case, there will be proper justice for the victim and/or their relatives.[/QUOTE] As you have already admitted, deterrence doesn't work to stop impulsive actions. And as any criminal knows, THEY DON'T EXPECT TO BE CAUGHT SO THEY DON'T FEAR THE PUNISHMENT. Drop it. Deterrence is a proven failure.
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