• Your brain chemistry existed before animals did
    86 replies, posted
[QUOTE=truebluesniper;32089830]Hey guys, let's all use the straw-man on deathstarboot! And hey, while you're at it throw a bunch of big, fancy scientific sounding words in there to make your response sound more valid, but in reality it's just word salad... I don't know why it's so hard to admit that science cannot explain everything. It's a bit scientifically irresponsible to deny things you don't like, and plus it sounds a little similar to something like the inquisition.[/QUOTE] You just admitted that you don't understand what people are talking about. That doesn't effect your credibility positively.
[QUOTE=truebluesniper;32089830]Hey guys, let's all use the straw-man on deathstarboot! And hey, while you're at it throw a bunch of big, fancy scientific sounding words in there to make your response sound more valid, but in reality it's just word salad... [b]I don't know why it's so hard to admit that science cannot explain everything.[/b] It's a bit scientifically irresponsible to deny things you don't like, and plus it sounds a little similar to something like the inquisition.[/QUOTE] Science cannot explain everything [b]YET[/b].
[QUOTE=truebluesniper;32089830]I don't know why it's so hard to admit that science cannot explain everything.[/QUOTE] Because so far time has proven this statement to be false.
[QUOTE=truebluesniper;32089830]hard to admit that science cannot explain everything.[/QUOTE] Yes, it can, it just takes time.
Now realize that the matter you are made of existed before this galaxy did.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;32091436]Now realize that the matter you are made of existed before this galaxy did.[/QUOTE] [img]http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1310/1286847464130.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=chrishind10;32082745]And this is why I love science, real tangible answers instead of "God did it"[/QUOTE] You're right, the concept of a superior being with vastly advanced powers and capabilities existing above and beyond the human plane's range of understanding is [I]absolutely[/I] not founded in reality. [IMG]http://images.defensetech.org/images/alien.jpg[/IMG] ...Oh.
[QUOTE=Jenkem;32092980]You're right, the concept of a superior being with vastly advanced powers and capabilities existing above and beyond the human plane's range of understanding is [I]absolutely[/I] not founded in reality. [IMG]http://images.defensetech.org/images/alien.jpg[/IMG] ...Oh.[/QUOTE] Science Fiction =/= Science Although the existance of another form of life that evolved on another planet is a statistical probability.
[QUOTE=deathstarboot;32088334]While you are completely right on one level, what makes me disagree with you is the fact that as science on human consciousness progresses, the more questions we end up with. Tests have been done that show one human brain can have an intimate connection with another, sharing specific thoughts or emotions over vast distances. And even a collective mood or feeling can be shared among people if they're gathered in a close proximity (such as a neighborhood). Also another important thing to consider are Near-Death-Experiences, for example, there are multiple reports of people in car accidents, where one person in the accident lives, and the other dies. The person that ends up living recalls talking to the other person and knowing they were dead as a result of the crash from a broken neck (or whatever it may have been), all without actually anybody even telling them anything about it. Another thing, children in some countries, more so in the east than in the west (as they learn to talk) start having nightmares, and start to know things they claim are from "past lives". I've seen a few documentaries and have read some books on this, and it's really quite strange. It's not really "reincarnation" as it is some kind of "memory transfer". It usually happens when a violent death occurs (there were a lot of these cases in WW2 and Vietnam era), where a child can know the names of the soldiers he was in command with, and know how they all died, without ever even knowing the existence of this other person who's memories exist in their head. My point is that we know [b]other dimensions exist in our reality[/b]. So while I still believe monotheism and all religion on the face of the earth is medieval and archaic, from a scientific standpoint it's not impossible that our consciousness exists in another dimension we're not aware of. So if human emotions and thoughts can be shared by people, or people in NDE's can know things they couldn't have possibly known otherwise, memories can be transferred after death, my feeling is that we're connected on a deeper level than science currently understands, and that goes for all human beings. So for your example about people that have strokes, since your mind is so fundamental in having a healthy perception on reality, damaging it can impair that perception. Your brain can be seen as a "vessel" for your deeper level of consciousness (or your "soul" if you even wanna call it that) that everyone possesses.[/QUOTE] The only reason people think consciousness is special is because our brain separates real-life things and their abstract representations as two different categories. There is no divide between consciousness and reality, not in real life, the only divide in in the way the brain classifies data. You are your connectome, get over all that New Age stuff. I'm going to need some citations.
Is it really that hard to understand that humans are merely machines? The difference between you and your computer is that one of you is organic, nothing more (except that a computer and a human works differently and all that, etc).
[QUOTE=DeEz;32094637]Is it really that hard to understand that humans are merely machines? The difference between you and your computer is that one of you is organic, nothing more (except that a computer and a human works differently and all that, etc).[/QUOTE] Which we know... how exactly? [editline]3rd September 2011[/editline] Not to mention it's rather irrelevant. I would consider computer conscious enough to be an entity mentally comparable to human to be on human's own level, but that doesn't make any less of humans. Today computers are completely incomparable to humans, and doing so makes no sense.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;32094821]Which we know... how exactly? [editline]3rd September 2011[/editline] Not to mention it's rather irrelevant. I would consider computer conscious enough to be an entity mentally comparable to human to be on human's own level, but that doesn't make any less of humans. Today computers are completely incomparable to humans, and doing so makes no sense.[/QUOTE] Your brain is an adaptive electro-chemical computer, nothing more.
[QUOTE=chrishind10;32094950]Your brain is an adaptive electro-chemical computer, nothing more.[/QUOTE] It clearly is, it's curiously shaped heap of fats, sacharids, proteins and simpler substances. This heap is produced out of curiously shaped heap of carbohydrate molecules plus water and again, some more simple chemicals. This mix consists of conveniently arranged atoms of Carbon, Oxygen, Hydrogen Nitrogen, and some others. These atoms all consist of Proton/Neutron core with Electrons on orbits. These Protons, Neutrons and Electrons consist of quarks. Your whole body, your existence, your whole world you will ever see, hear, and feel, consists of basically very simple substance, completely identical building stones, only arranged in particular way. But this arrangement is what matters. All this elaboration upon elaboration build environment for a consciousness to reside in. Our whole existence is basically all only information - real matter is completely unimportant, as in it's actual substance, it's completly same. What matters is the conscience. What we say, what we do, what we are. We are better than animals, because we are able to claim that entitlement for ourselves. If you want to degrade yourself and compare yourself to computer, dwelling on how simple we actually are, how predictable and mundane our brains are; suit yourself, I have no problem with it. But realize one thing. By what you are saying, you are a heap of randomly assembled gray something, which calls other randomly assembled gray something out. You are an electro-chemical computer, and I feel absolutely no urge to listen to you. Perhaps I am myself, but hell if I care.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;32095205]It clearly is, it's curiously shaped heap of fats, sacharids, proteins and simpler substances. This heap is produced out of curiously shaped heap of carbohydrate molecules plus water and again, some more simple chemicals. Oh so you agree with me. This mix consists of conveniently arranged atoms of Carbon, Oxygen, Hydrogen Nitrogen, and some others. These atoms all consist of Proton/Neutron core with Electrons on orbits. These Protons, Neutrons and Electrons consist of quarks. Your whole body, your existence, your whole world you will ever see, hear, and feel, consists of basically very simple substance, completely identical building stones, only arranged in particular way. But this arrangement is what matters. All this elaboration upon elaboration build environment for a consciousness to reside in. Our whole existence is basically all only information - real matter is completely unimportant, as in it's actual substance, it's completly same. What matters is the conscience. What we say, what we do, what we are. We are better than animals, because we are able to claim that entitlement for ourselves. If you want to degrade yourself and compare yourself to computer, dwelling on how simple we actually are, how predictable and mundane our brains are; suit yourself, I have no problem with it. But realize one thing. By what you are saying, you are a heap of randomly assembled gray something, which calls other randomly assembled gray something out. You are an electro-chemical computer, and I feel absolutely no urge to listen to you. Perhaps I am myself, but hell if I care.[/QUOTE] Oh so you agree with me.
[QUOTE=DeEz;32094637]Is it really that hard to understand that humans are merely machines? The difference between you and your computer is that one of you is organic, nothing more (except that a computer and a human works differently and all that, etc).[/QUOTE] Brains and our desktops may both be computers, but they are almost nothing alike. Is your computer conscious? Is it aware of itself? No, it is not. Is your computer programmed from its "birth" with all the software required to do [I]everything[/I] needed to work properly? No, it is not. Sure, a computer's "brain" sends commands to the various different parts of its "body" and does thorough calculations, just like a human brain, but that's where the similarities end. They're almost completely different things.
I used to think about spiritualism, souls, gods, realities... All after all, it simply doesn't matter. If I am mere heap of happily arranged matter, why not. If that matter has soul behind it, cool, I guess. What I know is that I am somebody who has a name, who has relatives, who is seeking his place in this world. I enjoy fulfilling my basic instincts as eating food, having comfortable sleep, I enjoy having sex. Yes, these constructs obviously come out of evolution, they drove us through our unaware times of, but that doesn't make them any less important for me. If I die and I am offered an afterlife, realizing I have a soul, well damn, woo, that would be rad. If I am offered brain implants which will mesh with my actually simple and understandable purely matterious brain, cool, lets boost my shit. But unless there is actual practical reason for seeing one or other concept real - I am not going to limit myself in any way. I am Milan, born in Prague, in year 1992, and I will live my life in enjoyable fulfilling way. Call yourself a computer, call yourself a soul. I simply don't give a shit.
[QUOTE=Cuon Alpinus;32095446]Brains and our desktops may both be computers, but they are almost nothing alike. Is your computer conscious? Is it aware of itself? No, it is not. Is your computer programmed from its "birth" with all the software required to do [I]everything[/I] needed to work properly? No, it is not. Sure, a computer's "brain" sends commands to the various different parts of its "body" and does thorough calculations, just like a human brain, but that's where the similarities end.[/QUOTE] Obviously you didn't pay attention to the [QUOTE][B](except that a computer and a human works differently and all that, etc).[/B][/QUOTE] part, I am not saying computers and humans are exactly alike (such a statement would be retarded). I am pointing out that there's an obvious aspect of what we are that we share. The fact that we're both machines in one way or another, and that humans aren't some holy part-ethereal being that exists on multiple levels of existence. But hey thanks for sharing, I completely agree with you.
[QUOTE=DeEz;32095518]Obviously you didn't pay attention to the part, I am not saying computers and humans are exactly alike (such a statement would be retarded). I am pointing out that there's an obvious aspect of what we are that we share. The fact that we're both machines in one way or another, and that humans aren't some holy part-ethereal being that exists on multiple levels of existence. But hey thanks for sharing, I completely agree with you.[/QUOTE] Okay then, I seemed to misunderstand you.
[QUOTE=Jenkem;32092980]You're right, the concept of a superior being with vastly advanced powers and capabilities existing above and beyond the human plane's range of understanding is [I]absolutely[/I] not founded in reality. [IMG]http://images.defensetech.org/images/alien.jpg[/IMG] ...Oh.[/QUOTE] Are you saying you legitimately believe that humans have had help from aliens lol
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[QUOTE=Cuon Alpinus;32095446]Brains and our desktops may both be computers, but they are almost nothing alike. Is your computer conscious? Is it aware of itself? No, it is not. Is your computer programmed from its "birth" with all the software required to do [I]everything[/I] needed to work properly? No, it is not. Sure, a computer's "brain" sends commands to the various different parts of its "body" and does thorough calculations, just like a human brain, but that's where the similarities end. They're almost completely different things.[/QUOTE] [I]"Are we made out of SILICON? ARE WE?!"[/I] You've completely misunderstood his analogy, and taken it to extremes. Our bodies are "just" survival machines for our genes, this is a fact. We are not any worse off because of this fact. If anything it just makes our very existence that much more amazing. Why do we have to convince ourselves that we are somehow more than what we are? The human body and brain are absolutely incredible, why do they have to be 'magical' too?
[QUOTE=Cuon Alpinus;32095446]Is your computer programmed from its "birth" with all the software required to do [I]everything[/I] needed to work properly? No, it is not.[/QUOTE] Neither is a brain. I certainly wasn't born knowing how to be an engineer, musician, or whatever else. Hell, I had to be taught how to do what I'm doing now. At least my computer knew a few languages right out of the box. The primary difference is the consciousness thing, and every other difference is debatable. Otherwise computational neuroscience and the like wouldn't be fields of study.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;32095778]Neither is a brain. I certainly wasn't born knowing how to be an engineer, musician, or whatever else. Hell, I had to be taught how to do what I'm doing now. At least my computer knew a few languages right out of the box. The primary difference is the consciousness thing, and every other difference is debatable. Otherwise computational neuroscience and the like wouldn't be fields of study.[/QUOTE] I was actually born with complete mastery of DOOM 1 and original Settlers. I wonder if dad didn't do something funky with all these diskettes laying around at the time of my conception.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;32095778]Neither is a brain. I certainly wasn't born knowing how to be an engineer, musician, or whatever else. Hell, I had to be taught how to do what I'm doing now. At least my computer knew a few languages right out of the box. The primary difference is the consciousness thing, and every other difference is debatable. Otherwise computational neuroscience and the like wouldn't be fields of study.[/QUOTE] I'm pretty damn sure you were born with the knowledge to do things needed in order to survive- that's what I meant. But I guess it was still a bad analogy on my part, seeing as most computers are shipped with the ability to be booted up and running.
[QUOTE=Cuon Alpinus;32095887]But I'm pretty damn sure you were born with the knowledge to do things needed in order to survive.[/QUOTE] So does a frog. [editline]3rd September 2011[/editline] Actually, a frog is capable to survive all life from what it knows at birth. A newborn human doesn't last a day on it's own.
[QUOTE=Cuon Alpinus;32095887]I'm pretty damn sure you were born with the knowledge to do things needed in order to survive- that's what I meant. But I guess it was still a bad analogy on my part, seeing as most computers are shipped with the ability to be booted up and running.[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure you have no idea how to survive in your first few years, that's why you have parents. Humans aren't equipped to survive without outside help from birth.
[QUOTE=Miskav;32096021]I'm pretty sure you have no idea how to survive in your first few years, that's why you have parents. Humans aren't equipped to survive without outside help from birth.[/QUOTE] I meant bodily functions, like a beating heart, working lungs, ect. That's why I said my analogy was bad, since most computer's are shipped with the ability to turn on.
[QUOTE=Cuon Alpinus;32096052]I meant bodily functions, like a beating heart, working lungs, ect.[/QUOTE] Well sure, but even my car "knows" enough to run when you turn it on, even if it needs somebody to refuel it and move 'er around so the battery doesn't die every so often. That [I]was[/I] a pretty terrible analogy ,now I have no idea what's going on.
You're still a computer. It's taken something like 2 billion years for life on earth to get to humanity. Computers have only arguably been around for less than 100 years. We've made robotic cockroaches, lobsters and even fish. They all basically do the same thing that the actual animal does. At the end of the day, you are just a highly advanced biological computer. Imagine what computers will be like in 2 billion years. Just look at how far we've gone in 30 years with computers. Nature invented the solar panel, robotic arm, electric motor, light bulbs, navigation, night vision, and many more things we take credit for. I'm not saying we are simple robot computers. I'm saying that we are amazing biological super computers that were developed over billions of years of trial and error. When you throw a ball in the air with one hand and catching it with your other, your brain is instantly processing calculations you don't even think you know yet. A 1st grader playing baseball has done calculus, trigonometry, and geometry without even knowing it. We [i]are[/i] computers. The computation abilities of the human brain are far superior than that of anything we've created today. While you may take offense to being categorized in the same group as a TI-84, it doesn't change the truth. While everything you've said was true and correct, We are still technically computers. and its not a bad thing. In fact, nature invented the computer way before humans did. I feel one day, computers will have the ability to be self aware if we choose to build them with that ability. [editline]3rd September 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Miskav;32096021]I'm pretty sure you have no idea how to survive in your first few years, that's why you have parents. Humans aren't equipped to survive without outside help from birth.[/QUOTE] You were born with your brain doing math you won't even "learn" until highschool on a daily basis.
I would say its more like: Your desktop / laptop is a really advanced computer Your brain is a billion super-simple computers
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