[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;32095205]It clearly is, it's curiously shaped heap of fats, sacharids, proteins and simpler substances.
This heap is produced out of curiously shaped heap of carbohydrate molecules plus water and again, some more simple chemicals.
This mix consists of conveniently arranged atoms of Carbon, Oxygen, Hydrogen Nitrogen, and some others.
These atoms all consist of Proton/Neutron core with Electrons on orbits.
These Protons, Neutrons and Electrons consist of quarks.
Your whole body, your existence, your whole world you will ever see, hear, and feel, consists of basically very simple substance, completely identical building stones, only arranged in particular way. But this arrangement is what matters. All this elaboration upon elaboration build environment for a consciousness to reside in. Our whole existence is basically all only information - real matter is completely unimportant, as in it's actual substance, it's completly same.
What matters is the conscience. What we say, what we do, what we are. We are better than animals, because we are able to claim that entitlement for ourselves.
If you want to degrade yourself and compare yourself to computer, dwelling on how simple we actually are, how predictable and mundane our brains are; suit yourself, I have no problem with it. But realize one thing. By what you are saying, you are a heap of randomly assembled gray something, which calls other randomly assembled gray something out. You are an electro-chemical computer, and I feel absolutely no urge to listen to you. Perhaps I am myself, but hell if I care.[/QUOTE]
Degradation is not the important factor. What is important is not holding fanciful and unfounded beliefs.
That the brain is somehow special or sacred in any metaphysical sense is an idea that should be discarded. If you wish to talk of how complex or intricate it is, that is another matter.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;32095205]It clearly is, it's curiously shaped heap of fats, sacharids, proteins and simpler substances.
This heap is produced out of curiously shaped heap of carbohydrate molecules plus water and again, some more simple chemicals.
This mix consists of conveniently arranged atoms of Carbon, Oxygen, Hydrogen Nitrogen, and some others.
These atoms all consist of Proton/Neutron core with Electrons on orbits.
These Protons, Neutrons and Electrons consist of quarks.
Your whole body, your existence, your whole world you will ever see, hear, and feel, consists of basically very simple substance, completely identical building stones, only arranged in particular way. But this arrangement is what matters. All this elaboration upon elaboration build environment for a consciousness to reside in. Our whole existence is basically all only information - real matter is completely unimportant, as in it's actual substance, it's completly same.
What matters is the conscience. What we say, what we do, what we are. We are better than animals, because we are able to claim that entitlement for ourselves.
If you want to degrade yourself and compare yourself to computer, dwelling on how simple we actually are, how predictable and mundane our brains are; suit yourself, I have no problem with it. But realize one thing. By what you are saying, you are a heap of randomly assembled gray something, which calls other randomly assembled gray something out. You are an electro-chemical computer, and I feel absolutely no urge to listen to you. Perhaps I am myself, but hell if I care.[/QUOTE]
I'm not degrading the human mind, it's an utterly incredible machine.
I'm just saying that's all it is, a machine.
[QUOTE=OvB;32096116]You're still a computer.
It's taken something like 2 billion years for life on earth to get to humanity. Computers have only arguably been around for less than 100 years.
We've made robotic cockroaches, lobsters and even fish. They all basically do the same thing that the actual animal does. At the end of the day, you are just a highly advanced biological computer. Imagine what computers will be like in 2 billion years. Just look at how far we've gone in 30 years with computers. Nature invented the solar panel, robotic arm, electric motor, light bulbs, navigation, night vision, and many more things we take credit for.
I'm not saying we are simple robot computers. I'm saying that we are amazing biological super computers that were developed over billions of years of trial and error. When you throw a ball in the air with one hand and catching it with your other, your brain is instantly processing calculations you don't even think you know yet. A 1st grader playing baseball has done calculus, trigonometry, and geometry without even knowing it. We [i]are[/i] computers. The computation abilities of the human brain are far superior than that of anything we've created today. While you may take offense to being categorized in the same group as a TI-84, it doesn't change the truth. While everything you've said was true and correct, We are still technically computers. and its not a bad thing. In fact, nature invented the computer way before humans did. I feel one day, computers will have the ability to be self aware if we choose to build them with that ability.[/QUOTE]
This might be semantics, but once computers become self aware, they shouldn't be called computers anymore.
Computer needs a command to function. It needs a reason to work, because it's a tool. Human starts functioning on his own. Starts progressing, improving himself, inventing. Yes, he is using very complex abilities which MIGHT one day be replicated by computer built by us, but the very word "computer", which does implies basic solving involving maths, just doesn't do it for me.
[QUOTE=Jenkem;32092980]You're right, the concept of a superior being with vastly advanced powers and capabilities existing above and beyond the human plane's range of understanding is [I]absolutely[/I] not founded in reality.
[IMG]http://images.defensetech.org/images/alien.jpg[/IMG]
...Oh.[/QUOTE]
Jenkem, are you some sort of wrong elemental?
Like a living embodiment of incorrect opinions and misguided ideals?
[editline]3rd September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;32096308]This might be semantics, but once computers become self aware, they shouldn't be called computers anymore.
Computer needs a command to function. It needs a reason to work, because it's a tool. Human starts functioning on his own. Starts progressing, improving himself, inventing. Yes, he is using very complex abilities which MIGHT one day be replicated by computer built by us, but the very word "computer", which does implies basic solving involving maths, just doesn't do it for me.[/QUOTE]
well of course they should bloody well be called computers, they compute things. Maybe they compute different things, or more complex things, but they still just compute things.
We just compute things too. Could call us computers too if you wanted to.
Jesus, just don't be PC for goddamn intelligent machines that don't even exist yet. Have some balls, man.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;32096308]This might be semantics, but once computers become self aware, they shouldn't be called computers anymore.[/QUOTE]
Since "computer" literally just means "thing that computes"...no.
I don't know a better word for what you mean. I mean, I know what you mean, you're talking about modern consumer/corporate computers, but there isn't a word just for that.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;32096308]This might be semantics, but once computers become self aware, they shouldn't be called computers anymore.
Computer needs a command to function. It needs a reason to work, because it's a tool. Human starts functioning on his own. Starts progressing, improving himself, inventing. Yes, he is using very complex abilities which MIGHT one day be replicated by computer built by us, but the very word "computer", which does implies basic solving involving maths, just doesn't do it for me.[/QUOTE]
Do you dictate everything your body does on your own? Do you tell your heart when to beat? Tell your muscle how much it needs to contract to catch the ball, to throw the ball? Do you tell your wounds to heal or your immune system to fight off that nasty cold you got? Humans have less control over our bodies than you think. Our body has been doing more math than a university mathematics major since the time we were born. Our brain processes more information everyday than probably the fastest computer to date. No matter how self aware we are, or advanced we are, we are still biological computers.
Hey guys did you hear about that train that derailed and crashed?
[QUOTE=MightyMax;32096415]Hey guys did you hear about that train that derailed and crashed?[/QUOTE]
Yes, I hear it ended up in a much more interesting location and no one cared except for the annoying people on the train.
[QUOTE=OvB;32096390]Do you dictate everything your body does on your own? Do you tell your heart when to beat? Tell your muscle how much it needs to contract to catch the ball, to throw the ball? Do you tell your wounds to heal or your immune system to fight off that nasty cold you got? Humans have less control over our bodies than you think. Our body has been doing more math than a university mathematics major since the time we were born. Our brain processes more information everyday than probably the fastest computer to date. No matter how self aware we are, or advanced we are, we are still biological computers.[/QUOTE]
The fact big amount of bodily functionality is automated doesn't quantify the whole being.
There is still big amount of unexplained behavior, for example feel for art. Once there is complete model of working human brain and you can show me that x because y thus z, every time, without unexplained exceptions, then I will condone calling human a computer, a solver, who gets input X and returns predictable outcome Y, but unti then, I reserve right to doubt that it's that simple.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;32096552]Yes, I hear it ended up in a much more interesting location and no one cared except for the annoying people on the train.[/QUOTE] gotta admit that was pretty good come back :v:
[QUOTE=OvB;32082978]The same way the computer you're typing on right now works. Just more squishy and biological.[/QUOTE]
and with less binary
[QUOTE=Murkat;32096955]and with less binary[/QUOTE]
More binary, actually. A neuron can either fire or not fire.
[QUOTE=deathstarboot;32088334]While you are completely right on one level, what makes me disagree with you is the fact that as science on human consciousness progresses, the more questions we end up with. Tests have been done that show one human brain can have an intimate connection with another, sharing specific thoughts or emotions over vast distances. And even a collective mood or feeling can be shared among people if they're gathered in a close proximity (such as a neighborhood).
[b]Also another important thing to consider are Near-Death-Experiences, for example, there are multiple reports of people in car accidents, where one person in the accident lives, and the other dies. The person that ends up living recalls talking to the other person and knowing they were dead as a result of the crash from a broken neck (or whatever it may have been), all without actually anybody even telling them anything about it.[/b]
Another thing, children in some countries, more so in the east than in the west (as they learn to talk) start having nightmares, and start to know things they claim are from "past lives". I've seen a few documentaries and have read some books on this, and it's really quite strange. It's not really "reincarnation" as it is some kind of "memory transfer". It usually happens when a violent death occurs (there were a lot of these cases in WW2 and Vietnam era), where a child can know the names of the soldiers he was in command with, and know how they all died, without ever even knowing the existence of this other person who's memories exist in their head.
My point is that we know [b]other dimensions exist in our reality[/b]. So while I still believe monotheism and all religion on the face of the earth is medieval and archaic, from a scientific standpoint it's not impossible that our consciousness exists in another dimension we're not aware of. So if human emotions and thoughts can be shared by people, or people in NDE's can know things they couldn't have possibly known otherwise, memories can be transferred after death, my feeling is that we're connected on a deeper level than science currently understands, and that goes for all human beings.
So for your example about people that have strokes, since your mind is so fundamental in having a healthy perception on reality, damaging it can impair that perception. Your brain can be seen as a "vessel" for your deeper level of consciousness (or your "soul" if you even wanna call it that) that everyone possesses.[/QUOTE]
NDEs are caused by the brain dumping DMT causing you to trip balls. Also DMT is released when you sleep and it causes you to have dreams.
[quote=Wikipedia.org][b]Several speculative and yet untested hypotheses suggest that endogenous DMT is produced in the human brain and is involved in certain psychological and neurological states. DMT is naturally occurring in small amounts in rat brain, [u][i]human cerebrospinal fluid[/i][/u], and other tissues of humans and other mammals. It may play a role in mediating the visual effects of natural dreaming, and also near-death experiences, religious visions and other mystical states.[/b][96] A biochemical mechanism for this was proposed by the medical researcher J. C. Callaway, who suggested in 1988 that DMT might be connected with visual dream phenomena: brain DMT levels would be periodically elevated to induce visual dreaming and possibly other natural states of mind.[97] However, these theories are unlikely as DMT has never been found in the human brain. A new hypothesis proposed is that in addition to being involved in altered states of consciousness, endogenous DMT may be involved in the creation of normal waking states of consciousness. It is proposed that DMT and other endogenous hallucinogens mediate their neurological abilities by acting as neurotransmitters at a sub class of the trace amine receptors; a group of receptors found in the CNS where DMT and other hallucinogens have been shown to have activity. Wallach further proposes that in this way waking consciousness can be thought of as a controlled psychedelic experience. It is when the control of these systems becomes loosened and their behavior no longer correlates with the external world that the altered states arise.[81][/quote]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine#Conjecture]Source[/url]
[QUOTE=deathstarboot;32088334]Also another important thing to consider are Near-Death-Experiences, for example, there are multiple reports of people in car accidents, where one person in the accident lives, and the other dies. The person that ends up living recalls talking to the other person and knowing they were dead as a result of the crash from a broken neck (or whatever it may have been), all without actually anybody even telling them anything about it.
Another thing, children in some countries, more so in the east than in the west (as they learn to talk) start having nightmares, and start to know things they claim are from "past lives". I've seen a few documentaries and have read some books on this, and it's really quite strange. It's not really "reincarnation" as it is some kind of "memory transfer". It usually happens when a violent death occurs (there were a lot of these cases in WW2 and Vietnam era), where a child can know the names of the soldiers he was in command with, and know how they all died, without ever even knowing the existence of this other person who's memories exist in their head. [/QUOTE]
Near-death experiences: your brain does a lot of crazy shit when it's dying. Yeah, there are cases of people knowing things they shouldn't, but it's probably coincidence: how many people have been in an accident, woken up, assumed their passenger died, found out they didn't, and happily forgot all about their dream?
Same goes for kids knowing people's names. They have vivid imaginations. Turns out they imagined something close to reality in some way and therefore everyone flips a shit and declares it a supernatural phenomenon.
The last thing in your post that irked me was your statement that groups of humans in close proximity will share emotions. That's not anything supernatural or unexplained by science, that's just human compassion. It's a rather key part of who we are today, as well as- getting back to the OP- how we got here.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;32095496]I used to think about spiritualism, souls, gods, realities... All after all, it simply doesn't matter.
If I am mere heap of happily arranged matter, why not. If that matter has soul behind it, cool, I guess. What I know is that I am somebody who has a name, who has relatives, who is seeking his place in this world.
I enjoy fulfilling my basic instincts as eating food, having comfortable sleep, I enjoy having sex. Yes, these constructs obviously come out of evolution, they drove us through our unaware times of, but that doesn't make them any less important for me.
If I die and I am offered an afterlife, realizing I have a soul, well damn, woo, that would be rad.
If I am offered brain implants which will mesh with my actually simple and understandable purely matterious brain, cool, lets boost my shit.
But unless there is actual practical reason for seeing one or other concept real - I am not going to limit myself in any way. I am Milan, born in Prague, in year 1992, and I will live my life in enjoyable fulfilling way.
Call yourself a computer, call yourself a soul. I simply don't give a shit.[/QUOTE]
We are talking about brain chemistry.
What the fuck are you doing.
Science is the only thing that can provide answers to everything that surrounds us, and our origins.
I see a thread titled "Your brain chemistry existed before animals did"
I say to myself "Cool, chemistry."
I enter and I see a theological and philosophical discussion not related at all to the topic.
[QUOTE=chrishind10;32082745]And this is why I love science, real tangible answers instead of "God did it"[/QUOTE]
You started this. I hope you're satisfied.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;32099073]I see a thread titled "Your brain chemistry existed before animals did"
I say to myself "Cool, chemistry."
I enter and I see a theological and philosophical discussion not related at all to the topic.
You started this. I hope you're satisfied.[/QUOTE]
Incredibly.
[QUOTE=chrishind10;32093270]Science Fiction =/= Science
Although the existance of another form of life that evolved on another planet is a statistical probability.[/QUOTE]
I wasn't citing the actual thing in the photo, just the concept.
Now, I personally do not ascribe to the "God is an alien" line, but the resemblance to qualities attributed to potential otherworldly beings is undeniably similar. We're arrogant to assume God doesn't exist - to challenge the idea of something that exists beyond our plane, that is the height of wisdom, power, and intelligence, and cannot even logically be comprehended (while using limited human reason and perception no less) is amazing.
If we get annihilated by some being(s) better than us that we didn't believe existed, we had that coming...the ostrich "let's bury our collective heads in the sand and pretend we're not about to be eaten by a predator" approach only takes you so far.
[editline]3rd September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;32096327]Jenkem, are you some sort of wrong elemental?
Like a living embodiment of incorrect opinions and misguided ideals?
[editline]3rd September 2011[/editline][/QUOTE]
I have to ask you a question. Can you refute what I said? So far all you did was just say "no your wrong" without justifying your insult.
Mankind is arrogant. We think we know God doesn't exist, yet we accept the possibility of another race more advanced, intelligent, and powerful. I don't understand how that's even possible without committing the Orwellian sin of doublethink...
This is not natural. What if we are from another planet?
I think you guys are forgetting that most NDExperiencers' brains are already dead and they're having a continuing experience; NOT like it all of a sudden stops and then next thing they remember is that they wake up.
[QUOTE=AngryChairR;32082861]How can you explain how it all works together though? Our mind? Soul?
It all comes from somewhere and it isn't worms.[/QUOTE]
Well, here. Tim Minchin will take a shit on that argument and any others you might have.
[media]http://youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U[/media]
The main reason religious people see science and say "it can not answer everything therefore it is false!" is because they are looking at it as if it was a religion. Science as we know it is a system and thought process that makes no sense whatsoever to those who are looking at it without understanding it, and this leads to people saying stupid bullshit like "science cannot answer everything" when in fact science is a system we use to continue to progress and understand as we go.
Furthermore people in religion see popular science pfigures like darwin, dawkins, tyson, sagan, hawkins as our leaders in the same way that jesus or god is their leader. they think they can attack them or discredit these people, we are proven false in the same way that if jesus was proven not to exist their religion would crumble .if evolution is false, then all of science is false for these people who simply dont understand it. If evolution was proven false tomorrow with scientific evidence, then thats the science! evolution is not science, its a scientific theory.
Hope that analysis is accurate
[editline]4th September 2011[/editline]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j8ZMMuu7MU&feature=feedu[/media]
here is an interesting if boring and slow analysis of why religious people get angry at you, which i generally agree with. I thought this video was bullshit until they got to the actual meat of it, so just a warning.