• Guns on College Campus? What.
    306 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Kontradaz;28187531]Letting college kids, who are notorious for getting high/drunk/messing around/fighting/etc., carry guns on campus is one of the dumbest ideas I have heard so far. It's a whole different environment than your house or your neighborhood, it is an institution where more often than not a bunch of college kids live in close proximity and engage in interactions that are not always the most considerate of consequences. But then everyone believes that college kids are suddenly some of the most rational beings on this planet and having them carry guns is a marvelous idea that will allow them to stop any shooting. Bullshit.[/QUOTE] How many times must we go over this? The amount of time, training, and lack of criminal background that go into ensuring that someone who is carrying is NOT dangerous is really quite lengthy. If you think someone who carries a concealed weapon (legally) is going to just pull out his gun at any random occasion, or that any of the stereotypical "drunk college kids" are going to be approved for a CC permit, you are thinking wrong.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;28185253]Anyone carrying concealed weapons on campus should be required to enter their name on a public registry that any student attending the school has access to so everyone knows who has guns Beyond that all normal laws for concealed carry should apply[/QUOTE] But under Texas law, having a concealed weapon is treated the same as being gay under don't ask don't tell, along with the fact disclosing to the public how many, and who exactly has a gun at each campus automatically defeats the purpose of a concealed carry permit [editline]21st February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Kontradaz;28187531]Letting college kids, who are notorious for getting high/drunk/messing around/fighting/etc., carry guns on campus is one of the dumbest ideas I have heard so far. It's a whole different environment than your house or your neighborhood, it is an institution where more often than not a bunch of college kids live in close proximity and engage in interactions that are not always the most considerate of consequences. But then everyone believes that college kids are suddenly some of the most rational beings on this planet and having them carry guns is a marvelous idea that will allow them to stop any shooting. Bullshit.[/QUOTE] Except it takes a 3 month long background check in Texas before you are approved for a Concealed handgun license Also if a Concealed handgun license permit is good enough to let you walk around the State Capitol with a gun, it's sure as fuck good enough to use at collage
[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;28186127]IMHO the only "weapon" I'd carry is this: [img_thumb]http://rarebirdfinds.typepad.com/rare_bird_finds/images/2007/09/25/beltbuckle.jpg[/img_thumb] More than enough for me...[/QUOTE] You'd use a belt? Hardcore.
Also technically under Texas law, and when I say technically, I mean de jure, you could walk around the grounds of a campus with a AK-47 all day long since our Statue states the premises of a Campus is only the buildings it self and not the ground which it stands, and the fact Texas has no statues against carrying of rifles and shotguns, though de facto the Local Police will arrest your ass on the spot for doing that near about anywhere in the State due to the intentionally vaguely worded law on brandishing weapons [editline]21st February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;28185299]Actually in Arizona you can freely walk around with a concealed firearm(no permit required). You have to leave your firearm in a vehicle though when entering a school zone or any no-firearm zone.[/QUOTE] Arizona is over 900 miles away from the western most tip of Texas, how in the fuck is that state at all relevant to Texas? [editline]21st February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Mop;28186484]All I can see from this is more, [URL]http://www.cfnews13.com/article/news/2011/january/192195/Florida-State-student-dead-and-another-arrested-in-accidental-shooting-off-campus[/URL][/QUOTE] Show me where not being allowed to have a gun on campus stopped that accident, considering it occurred at off campus, at a apartment
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;28187603]How many times must we go over this? The amount of time, training, and lack of criminal background that go into ensuring that someone who is carrying is NOT dangerous is really quite lengthy. If you think someone who carries a concealed weapon (legally) is going to just pull out his gun at any random occasion, or that any of the stereotypical "drunk college kids" are going to be approved for a CC permit, you are thinking wrong.[/QUOTE] Having guns around college campuses and kids is a recipe for disaster. I don't care if the most serene and angelic person has a CC, others can gain access to it in the heat of the moment and use it. While I don't know the details of this background check, I doubt that it can prevent some of the bad apples from getting through.
[QUOTE=Numidium;28187086]On College? Really? Its not like you're gonna get mugged on College. And even if, I hate that stupid redneck "oh weall ima defend ma self coz u know dere coud be a robba or some shit and ima shoot em coz ima bad ass american and im all for freedom an shit". You don't need a fucking gun. If I'd walk down the streets and know everyone probably has a usp in their jacket I'd be scared.[/QUOTE] Why would you be afraid? Unless you into to harass or assault someone randomly, why would you have any fear?
[QUOTE=Kontradaz;28187814]I don't care if the most serene and angelic person has a CC, others can gain access to it in the heat of the moment and use it.[/QUOTE] By this logic, there should be no guns anywhere other than in police and military hands, as in any other case, others could get access to it.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;28185054]Then a guy has a bad day with some bible thumper calling him a wasteless sack of flesh, and an OK Corral happens in a matter of seconds.[/QUOTE] People like that will get violent anyway. I'd rather be shot than stabbed and bleed out of dozens of deep cuts all over my body. Guns will still be brought on campus if a criminal act is being plotted. Keeping it "weapon free" will simply leave people even more vulnerable when someone decides they don't like a whole mess of college students breathing anymore. [QUOTE=Canned Induvidual;28185082]pop pop pop texas' gonna suck Anyways, I doubt they will ever get a chance to use 'em for a good reason. This just opens up for more school shootings[/QUOTE] Why is that? You think an absense of firearms on campus will curb violence? Someone could just pick up a baseball bat and start hitting people with it in a fit of rage. It's not like you can kill or permanently injure someone with that or any number of common innocuous items, though, right?
[QUOTE=Kontradaz;28187814]Having guns around college campuses and kids is a recipe for disaster. I don't care if the most serene and angelic person has a CC, others can gain access to it in the heat of the moment and use it. While I don't know the details of this background check, I doubt that it can prevent some of the bad apples from getting through.[/QUOTE] Sir, please state to me how anyone else can even tell who has a gun in the state where you can be arrested for even the outline of your gun showing through your shirt, to then access it in the "heat of the moment"? Seriously, so unless you are suggesting someone else will take the loaded gun away from him after he has upholstered it, in which case you are insane, you seriously have no idea what Concealed Carry is
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;28187851]By this logic, there should be no guns anywhere other than in police and military hands, as in any other case, others could get access to it.[/QUOTE] As I have already said, a college environment is different than your personal home or neighborhood. It is a totally different makeup of individuals who are known for their irrational behavior, and allowing a small portion of them to hold guns is not conducive to a safe institutional environment. Why should I feel safe knowing that some of the people at my college have guns on them? I wouldn't feel safe, not at all.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;28185054] Then a guy has a bad day with some bible thumper calling him a wasteless sack of flesh, and an OK Corral happens in a matter of seconds.[/QUOTE] This never happens. In fact, people who legally carry firearms usually have spotless criminal records.
[QUOTE=Kontradaz;28187904]As I have already said, a college environment is different than your personal home or neighborhood. [/QUOTE] its okay to have a gun where you're not likely to get shot its not okay to have a gun where you're most likely to get shot, is basically what you just said
Either way, there is no good reason to allow students to CC guns. The only reason I have seen so far is to protect against "shootings". That's it. And there are far better ways to go about trying to prevent shootings than allowing students to carry guns themselves. The fear level will be increased, that is without a question. There is no good reason, at all. Is this simply about being more free and being able to wave that gun around in case of some extremely rare shooting? Or is it something else? Why not increase security forces and measures to prevent such shootings instead?
[QUOTE=Kontradaz;28187904]As I have already said, a college environment is different than your personal home or neighborhood. It is a totally different makeup of individuals who are known for their irrational behavior, and allowing a small portion of them to hold guns is not conducive to a safe institutional environment. Why should I feel safe knowing that some of the people at my college have guns on them? I wouldn't feel safe, not at all.[/QUOTE] So basically to you college is full of insane irrational people? Maybe people should be afraid of you then. [editline]e[/editline] [QUOTE=Kontradaz;28188052]Either way, there is no good reason to allow students to CC guns. The only reason I have seen so far is to protect against "shootings". That's it. And there are far better ways to go about trying to prevent shootings than allowing students to carry guns themselves. The fear level will be increased, that is without a question. There is no good reason, at all. Is this simply about being more free and being able to wave that gun around in case of some extremely rare shooting? Or is it something else? Why not increase security forces and measures to prevent such shootings instead?[/QUOTE] Security can't be everywhere, security can't follow every student around every hour of the day. Not everyone is an irrational buffoon who can't carry because of their passionate moments or whatever the hell you're talking about, this is Texas' policy and it has served them relatively well for a while now, take it up with your legislature which has seen the exact opposite results you are predicting (with what evidence i don't know), this is your irrational fear. There are no numbers or facts or even educated guessing behind your statements. Contrary to you and Mister Hobbes not all men are created assholes and not everyone out there will murder you the first chance they get, especially not those who go out of their way to follow the law and get a CCW permit.
[QUOTE=s0beit;28188089]So basically to you college is full of insane irrational people? Maybe people should be afraid of you then.[/QUOTE] No, don't twist my words around. College students are young adults, and, unless you have never gone to college, they do not simply sit around and study while being little angels. They drink, smoke weed, they party and do a variety of crazy things to have fun. They are not insane, but they are not always restricted by an adult mindset. [editline]21st February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=s0beit;28188089] Security can't be everywhere, security can't follow every student around every hour of the day. Not everyone is an irrational buffoon who can't carry because of their passionate moments or whatever the hell you're talking about, this is Texas' policy and it has served them relatively well for a while now, take it up with your legislature which has seen the exact opposite results you are predicting (with what evidence i don't know), this is your irrational fear. There are no numbers or facts or even educated guessing behind your statements. Contrary to you and Mister Hobbes not all men are created assholes and not everyone out there will murder you the first chance they get, especially not those who go out of their way to follow the law and get a CCW permit.[/QUOTE] You keep on twisting my words and placing words into my mouth that I have not said. I did not declare that every student is irrational, but the activities that many students partake in are not focused around being rational. Passionate moments exist in a college environment, and countless conflicts have ended up in a scuffles rather than a gunfight. What policy? It has not even been enacted yet and you tell me they have results that are opposite of what I predict? Bullshit. Unless you are willing to provide numbers or facts, don't try to bash on my argument with a dumb rebuttal like that. I never said all men are created assholes. I never said everyone will murder me the first change they get. At the current moment, there is absolutely no study that I have seen that proves that allowing kids to carry guns on college campus is a good idea. I still hold to my belief that an increase in security measures and forces is far better than allowing college students to hold guns.
[QUOTE=Bletotum;28185074]the problem is morons who would start a shootout over some argument.[/QUOTE] Which would be a great excuse if it wasn't for the fact that, statistically, concealed carry holders are extremely law abiding citizens and virtually never murder people. [editline]21st February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Kontradaz;28188052]There is no good reason, at all. Is this simply about being more free and being able to wave that gun around in case of some extremely rare shooting? Or is it something else? Why not increase security forces and measures to prevent such shootings instead?[/QUOTE] Mostly it just discourages people from going through with the shooting in the first place. It is a lot easier to shoot a bunch of people up when you know for a fact that only the police will be armed. In reality you are just scared. Time has shown that concealed carry civilians has not had any negative effects on pretty much anything and the argument can be made that it is actually beneficial to the decrease in crime rates. But in spite of zero evidence suggesting that your side has any merit whatsoever, you still want to ban firearms. So unless you have some magical evidence which suggests that this would actually do harm, then you need to seriously reconsider your position. Otherwise you are denying other human beings access to the tools to defend themselves and their friends, because guns terrify you.
[QUOTE=rosar0980;28187366]Oh well. I can't find it. Basically, it's divided into four ctions, one with Columbine, Omaha Mall, Virginia Tech, and one other. They're all looking at theno gun signs wit weaponry in their hans, with the same thought in the middle "Good, noone will fight back here."[/QUOTE] [img]http://www.nationalgunrights.org/images/gun-free-zone-cLR.jpg[/img] here you go, sir
[QUOTE=Kontradaz;28188138] You keep on twisting my words and placing words into my mouth that I have not said. I did not declare that every student is irrational, but the activities that many students partake in are not focused around being rational. Passionate moments exist in a college environment, and countless conflicts have ended up in a scuffles rather than a gunfight. [/quote] How am i twisting your words? You just contradicted your own statement and agreed with me. You envision a college campus where instead of throwing fists everyone just shoots each other in a quite irrational context. [QUOTE=Kontradaz;28188138] What policy? It has not even been enacted yet and you tell me they have results that are opposite of what I predict? Bullshit. Unless you are willing to provide numbers or facts, don't try to bash on my argument with a dumb rebuttal like that. I never said all men are created assholes. I never said everyone will murder me the first change they get. At the current moment, there is absolutely no study that I have seen that proves that allowing kids to carry guns on college campus is a good idea. I still hold to my belief that an increase in security measures and forces is far better than allowing college students to hold guns.[/QUOTE] You just bring college campuses up because it effects you, i mean, why should we let people in college drive if all they do is get drunk? People would be run over on campus like mad, mass anarchy, bodies flying everywhere, instead of fistfights people will just run each other over with vehicles! See how stupid that sounds? Cars kill more people per year than firearms and simply dwarfs criminal shootings by CCW holders. If these people are "kids" then i don't know what they're going to do out in the real world. Will all these people continue throughout their lives owning guns and shooting individuals instead of fighting them? Evidence points to the contrary.
these are pretty funny [img]http://divisionoflabour.com/archives/LesterGunsatMallCartoon.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.willowtown.com/reality/GunFreeZone.jpg[/img] [img]http://swissgunblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/gun-free-zone.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=GunFox;28188337]Which would be a great excuse if it wasn't for the fact that, statistically, concealed carry holders are extremely law abiding citizens and virtually never murder people. [editline]21st February 2011[/editline] Mostly it just discourages people from going through with the shooting in the first place. It is a lot easier to shoot a bunch of people up when you know for a fact that only the police will be armed. In reality you are just scared. Time has shown that concealed carry civilians has not had any negative effects on pretty much anything and the argument can be made that it is actually beneficial to the decrease in crime rates. But in spite of zero evidence suggesting that your side has any merit whatsoever, you still want to ban firearms. So unless you have some magical evidence which suggests that this would actually do harm, then you need to seriously reconsider your position. Otherwise you are denying other human beings access to the tools to defend themselves and their friends, because guns terrify you.[/QUOTE] Uhh, I don't think your side of the argument has presented any evidence at all. Other than some vague reference to some studies done, you have nothing to backup your argument at all. My argument rests on the fact that a college environment does not need the addition of guns on some, yet again, vague notion of more safety. "“A 2001 study by the U.S. Department of Education found that the overall homicide rate at postsecondary education institutions was 0.07 per 100,000 of enrollment in 1999.2 By comparison, the criminal homi- cide rate in the United States was 5.7 per 100,000 persons overall in 1999, and 14.1 per 100,000 for per- sons ages 17 to 29. Another study, conducted by the Department of Justice, found that 93% of violent crimes that victimize college students occur off campus.3 This research demonstrates conclusively that students on the campuses of postsecondary institutions are significantly safer than both their off-campus counterparts and the nation as a whole.”" Where is your research? Why are people so intent on claiming I am wrong and lacking evidence while all of you are just as lacking in evidence and actual factual information as I was. As far as I have seen, research is a mixed bag of results with some claiming that CC is beneficial while others claim it has increased violence rates. Considering the current violence/homicide rates in universities (which is quite low), I find the claim that we need to be able to hold guns for "safety" reasons to be unproductive and currently unsubstantiated with actual evidence (from what I have seen)
The University of Texas shooting could have been a lot worse, but civilians who were carrying firearms engaged the suspect before police even arrived, making it difficult for him to make clean shots.
I would gladly arm myself in a bad community even at a school.
[QUOTE=Kontradaz;28188684]Uhh, I don't think your side of the argument has presented any evidence at all. Other than some vague reference to some studies done, you have nothing to backup your argument at all. [/QUOTE] You are the one attempting to ban something, therefore you are the one who provides evidence that backs it up. The burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies. Note that a low homicide rate on campuses doesn't mean shit. Those are not valid grounds to remove someone's rights. Even assuming that they were, your stats are a fucking joke that don't pertain to the topic at all.
[QUOTE=Kontradaz;28188684] "“A 2001 study by the U.S. Department of Education found that the overall homicide rate at postsecondary education institutions was 0.07 per 100,000 of enrollment in 1999.2 By comparison, the criminal homi- cide rate in the United States was 5.7 per 100,000 persons overall in 1999, and 14.1 per 100,000 for per- sons ages 17 to 29. Another study, conducted by the Department of Justice, found that 93% of violent crimes that victimize college students occur off campus.3 This research demonstrates conclusively that students on the campuses of postsecondary institutions are significantly safer than both their off-campus counterparts and the nation as a whole.”" [/QUOTE] What you have provided us with is evidence that college students are overwhelmingly responsible adults with little to no violent tendencies which basically obliterates your entire argument.
[QUOTE=GunFox;28188805]You are the one attempting to ban something, therefore you are the one who provides evidence that backs it up. The burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies. Note that a low homicide rate on campuses doesn't mean shit. Those are not valid grounds to remove someone's rights. Even assuming that they were, your stats are a fucking joke that don't pertain to the topic at all.[/QUOTE] No, you are the one trying to legalize the possession of guns on a campus on the vague grounds (That you still have not gotten any evidence for!) of greater safety in schools. Thus, the burden of proof lies upon your shoulder. I'm sorry, but I am all for restricting some rights if they manage to keep people safer and lower the rate of violence, especially in schools. But, since this is the land of Guns and Freedom, restricting rights in favor of lower violence rates seems to be taboo. It's trying to fix something that is not broken by adding a larger degree of lethal weapons in the mix. Those stats definitely pertain to the topic. They both introduce the fact that most conflicts occur off-campus and that campuses are some of the safest places to be due to their low violence rates. Thus, the inclusion of guns within such a safe environment is dumb and not conducive to a safer environment. [editline]21st February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=s0beit;28188868]What you have provided us with is evidence that college students are overwhelmingly responsible adults with little to no violent tendencies which basically obliterates your entire argument.[/QUOTE] No, that is not what the research concludes. The research asserts that most violent crimes occur off campus and that research has determined that campuses and students are safer within college campuses rather than off-campus. This goes against the need for more guns in the effort to create more safety, when campuses are currently fine and not a place where people need to carry guns in order to protect themselves.
[QUOTE=Numidium;28187086]On College? Really? Its not like you're gonna get mugged on College. And even if, I hate that stupid redneck "oh weall ima defend ma self coz u know dere coud be a robba or some shit and ima shoot em coz ima bad ass american and im all for freedom an shit". You don't need a fucking gun. If I'd walk down the streets and know everyone probably has a usp in their jacket I'd be scared.[/QUOTE] As a Virginia Tech student I would like to declare that this post is retarded.
[QUOTE=Kontradaz;28188919]No, you are the one trying to legalize the possession of guns on a campus on the vague grounds (That you still have not gotten any evidence for!) of greater safety in schools. Thus, the burden of proof lies upon your shoulder. I'm sorry, but I am all for restricting some rights if they manage to keep people safer and lower the rate of violence, especially in schools.[b] But, since this is the land of Guns and Freedom, restricting rights in favor of lower violence rates seems to be taboo.[/b] It's trying to fix something that is not broken by adding a larger degree of lethal weapons in the mix.[/quote] American's in general don't like nanny states telling them what they can and cannot own really. [quote] Those stats definitely pertain to the topic. They both introduce the fact that most conflicts occur off-campus and that campuses are some of the safest places to be due to their low violence rates. [b]Thus, the inclusion of guns within such a safe environment is dumb and not conducive to a safer environment.[/b] [/quote] I've been over this before. There's a university in Colorado which practiced this law already way before Texas. Nothing bad has happened. To be really honest it does make me feel safer knowing that someone in the campus is armed because say for sake of example some chump decides to go Virginia Tech, I would feel better knowing someone could shoot back rather than being cattle to some loser.
[QUOTE=Kontradaz;28188919]No, you are the one trying to legalize the possession of guns on a campus on the vague grounds (That you still have not gotten any evidence for!) of greater safety in schools. Thus, the burden of proof lies upon your shoulder.[/quote] Bud, banning something is ALWAYS ON THE SIDE OF REQUIRING EVIDENCE. "The burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies" is actually better known in the United States as "Innocent until proven guilty". It is the notion that until you provide evidence for the removal of a right (In the judicial system, usually an individual's liberty or property), that those rights should not be removed. Until you provide evidence that suggests that firearms would negatively impact colleges, the pro-gun side doesn't actually have to do shit. [quote]I'm sorry, but I am all for restricting some rights if they manage to keep people safer and lower the rate of violence, especially in schools. But, since this is the land of Guns and Freedom, restricting rights in favor of lower violence rates seems to be taboo. It's trying to fix something that is not broken by adding a larger degree of lethal weapons in the mix.[/quote] Except you still have nothing to suggest that it would cause a problem. [quote]Those stats definitely pertain to the topic. They both introduce the fact that most conflicts occur off-campus and that campuses are some of the safest places to be due to their low violence rates. Thus, the inclusion of guns within such a safe environment is dumb and not conducive to a safer environment. [/QUOTE] [b]Except you still have no evidence suggesting that is the case. [/b]
[QUOTE=GunFox;28189093]Bud, banning something is ALWAYS ON THE SIDE OF REQUIRING EVIDENCE. "The burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies" is actually better known in the United States as "Innocent until proven guilty". It is the notion that until you provide evidence for the removal of a right (In the judicial system, usually an individual's liberty or property), that those rights should not be removed. Until you provide evidence that suggests that firearms would negatively impact colleges, the pro-gun side doesn't actually have to do shit. Except you still have nothing to suggest that it would cause a problem. [b]Except you still have no evidence suggesting that is the case. [/b][/QUOTE] The stats that I have provided, that you dismissed, give you the evidence for the case that I have made. I won't spend my whole day drudging through data to try and prove to you this, but it seems we have different views of what is most important to a society. While I view the safety of the individuals and institutions as being the most important, and evidence points to the low rate of violence and crime within institutions as a whole (Look at what I have provided), you believe that not restricting the rights of the individual is the best. Go to Somalia, you can have all the guns and freedom you want there. P.S: This is a debate. There is evidence for both sides, yet you wish to pin all the work on me. Stop being such a lazy asshole and actually try to prove your point other than sitting there constantly saying I need to prove mine.
[QUOTE=Kontradaz;28189188]Go to Somalia, you can have all the guns and freedom you want there.[/QUOTE] why would he want to go to somalia, it's a violent, anarchic nation
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