• Guns on College Campus? What.
    306 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Kontradaz;28189188]The stats that I have provided, that you dismissed, give you the evidence for the case that I have made. I won't spend my whole day drudging through data to try and prove to you this, but it seems we have different views of what is most important to a society. While I view the safety of the individuals and institutions as being the most important, and evidence points to the low rate of violence and crime within institutions as a whole (Look at what I have provided), you believe that not restricting the rights of the individual is the best. [/quote] I have looked at what you have provided. You have stated that college campuses are statistically more safe than the largely low income housing that appears off campus. No shit sherlock, we all already figured as much. What it DOESN'T say is that lifting firearm restrictions would have any sort of negative effect. Nor does it provide evidence for such restrictions in the first place. [quote]Go to Somalia, you can have all the guns and freedom you want there.[/quote] Yeah how dare I want laws to be based around evidence and logic instead of knee-jerk responses based on fear. Silly me. [quote]P.S: This is a debate. There is evidence for both sides, yet you wish to pin all the work on me. Stop being such a lazy asshole and actually try to prove your point other than sitting there constantly saying I need to prove mine.[/QUOTE] Why? I don't have anything that needs to be proven. You are the one making claims here. Sure I could provide evidence that CCW firearms elsewhere don't cause problems, but that would suggest that I consider your side to have any merit whatsoever. I don't counter your argument with evidence for the same reason that I don't counter a homeless man on the street claiming he has trapped god in a coke bottle. Arguing with him only makes him think his side has value. Until he provides evidence, he is just blowing hot air.
[QUOTE=GunFox;28189451]I have looked at what you have provided. You have stated that college campuses are statistically more safe than the largely low income housing that appears off campus. No shit sherlock, we all already figured as much. What it DOESN'T say is that lifting firearm restrictions would have any sort of negative effect. Nor does it provide evidence for such restrictions in the first place. Yeah how dare I want laws to be based around evidence and logic instead of knee-jerk responses based on fear. Silly me. Why? I don't have anything that needs to be proven. You are the one making claims here. Sure I could provide evidence that CCW firearms elsewhere don't cause problems, but that would suggest that I consider your side to have any merit whatsoever. I don't counter your argument with evidence for the same reason that I don't counter a homeless man on the street claiming he has trapped god in a coke bottle. Arguing with him only makes him think his side has value. Until he provides evidence, he is just blowing hot air.[/QUOTE] Well, that is just one of the most narrow-minded views I have ever seen. I myself agree that your side has merits, and this is a very controversial topic that is flanked by evidence from both sides. Yet you have the audacity and arrogance to claim that my side has no merit and is beneath your effort to even try to disprove. You obviously don't wish to actually research into this and look for any evidence at all, and you claim to hold a superior ground on some claims of basing your argument on "evidence and logic"; of which I have seen neither. Arguing anything with you is a waste of time.
I never understood why people think it's impossible to hurt someone if guns aren't allowed. They just think guns are the over all cause of every death and they also raped their mother and could possible give you a STD. I mean holy shit it's just allowed CCW inside school buildings. I assume the teachers could carry too.. and I would hope they exercise that.
[QUOTE=Kontradaz;28189589]Well, that is just one of the most narrow-minded views I have ever seen. I myself agree that your side has merits, and this is a very controversial topic that is flanked by evidence from both sides. Yet you have the audacity and arrogance to claim that my side has no merit and is beneath your effort to even try to disprove. You obviously don't wish to actually research into this and look for any evidence at all, and you claim to hold a superior ground on some claims of basing your argument on "evidence and logic"; of which I have seen neither. Arguing anything with you is a waste of time.[/QUOTE] I love this method of arguing. When you know the other side is either crazy or full of shit, all you have to do is stick to your guns and demand evidence. It goes one of a few ways in my experience. 1) They go straight to personal attacks. 2) (the case here) They attempt to provide evidence, but either provide a terrible source or evidence that has nothing to do with the topic and THEN resort to personal attacks when it is shot down. I've yet to see a third scenario, though I imagine one exists. Your frustration, in case you are curious, stems from realizing that your side of the argument is wrong and having no idea what to do with that information. I don't fuck around in these debates anymore because I have had them so many times that yes, I now know that your side actually has no merit. It SEEMS like it does at first, but years of no evidence or false evidence has made me realize that there is nothing behind your side of the debate. This is why I pushed for evidence. I know there is none. Why provide evidence for my side and sidetrack the debate when I know for certain that you can't provide anything that suggests your side is correct?
[QUOTE=Kontradaz;28189589] You obviously don't wish to actually research into this and look for any evidence at all, and you claim to hold a superior ground on some claims of basing your argument on "evidence and logic"; of which I have seen neither. Arguing anything with you is a waste of time.[/QUOTE] I would say the opposite. Just looking over this "debate" I've seen you attribute others with this illogical, redneck, "WOO FREEDOM 'MERICA" mindset numerous times without listening to their logic.
[QUOTE=GunFox;28189798]I love this method of arguing. When you know the other side is either crazy or full of shit, all you have to do is stick to your guns and demand evidence. It goes one of a few ways in my experience. 1) They go straight to personal attacks. 2) (the case here) They attempt to provide evidence, but either provide a terrible source or evidence that has nothing to do with the topic and THEN resort to personal attacks when it is shot down. I've yet to see a third scenario, though I imagine one exists. Your frustration, in case you are curious, stems from realizing that your side of the argument is wrong and having no idea what to do with that information. I don't fuck around in these debates anymore because I have had them so many times that yes, I now know that your side actually has no merit. It SEEMS like it does at first, but years of no evidence or false evidence has made me realize that there is nothing behind your side of the debate. This is why I pushed for evidence. I know there is none. Why provide evidence for my side and sidetrack the debate when I know for certain that you can't provide anything that suggests your side is correct?[/QUOTE] I really love your arguments GunFox. I've seen you do that in a few threads and it's normally a slap in the face to the other person.
IMO, they should only be allowed to carry .22s or Tasers.
[QUOTE=Kontradaz;28189188]The stats that I have provided, that you dismissed, give you the evidence for the case that I have made. I won't spend my whole day drudging through data to try and prove to you this, but it seems we have different views of what is most important to a society. While I view the safety of the individuals and institutions as being the most important, and evidence points to the low rate of violence and crime within institutions as a whole (Look at what I have provided), you believe that not restricting the rights of the individual is the best. Go to Somalia, you can have all the guns and freedom you want there. P.S: This is a debate. There is evidence for both sides, yet you wish to pin all the work on me. Stop being such a lazy asshole and actually try to prove your point other than sitting there constantly saying I need to prove mine.[/QUOTE] Even if your evidence was valid, what your argument essentially boiled down to was this: "College campuses are safe enough, they don't need to be able to carry guns." This is faulty in and of itself. How does the fact that there are less homicides there now mean that adding guns will make it worse? Adding guns to a scenario does not always make it more dangerous, contrary to what you may think. As GunFox and several others have pointed out, other places allow people to carry concealed weapons, and these are still adults, as irrational as you believe they are. And for a final point, when have we have EVER started banning things because we didn't [B]absolutely need [/B]them? That's like if I said, "We don't need cigarettes in society, our lungs are healthy enough, let's ban cigarettes outright." There is no logic behind it.
I don't really see how a college is different than any other place, other than possibly more people, so I don't think I oppose applying the same gun laws to campuses, however I do think that the idea that more people with guns = safer schools is bullshit. I support gun ownership as a right, but I think that on average, it creates more safety hazards than it solves.
I wish we did this here, I have to bike home after class through some sketchy parts of town and I can't bring a gun since I have to go onto campus.
If this applied to weapons in general, I'd carry a katana strapped to by belt for shits and giggles. :v: But seriously, this is a good idea,[B][I] in theory.[/I][/B] Stressing the [U][I][B]IN THEORY[/B][/I][/U] part. Then someone throws a party involving alcohol and five minutes later we have another VA Tech. This might actually be [B][I]worse [/I][/B]that that carry weapons into bars bill in Wisconsin.
[QUOTE=BANNED USER;28190298]I wish we did this here, I have to bike home after class through some sketchy parts of town and I can't bring a gun since I have to go onto campus.[/QUOTE] I love living in an upper class European town.
[QUOTE=s0beit;28185131] oh yeah, nevermind, it has an extremely low violent crime rate which has been falling for years,[/QUOTE] extremely low? As of 2006 Texas has the 15th highest violent crime rate in the country
[QUOTE=GunFox;28189798]I love this method of arguing. When you know the other side is either crazy or full of shit, all you have to do is stick to your guns and demand evidence. It goes one of a few ways in my experience. 1) They go straight to personal attacks. 2) (the case here) They attempt to provide evidence, but either provide a terrible source or evidence that has nothing to do with the topic and THEN resort to personal attacks when it is shot down. I've yet to see a third scenario, though I imagine one exists. Your frustration, in case you are curious, stems from realizing that your side of the argument is wrong and having no idea what to do with that information. I don't fuck around in these debates anymore because I have had them so many times that yes, I now know that your side actually has no merit. It SEEMS like it does at first, but years of no evidence or false evidence has made me realize that there is nothing behind your side of the debate. This is why I pushed for evidence. I know there is none. Why provide evidence for my side and sidetrack the debate when I know for certain that you can't provide anything that suggests your side is correct?[/QUOTE] This is absolute crap. You have provided absolutely nothing to this argument other than you constantly saying how my argument has no merit or that my side is ignorant or that my side lacks argument. Instead of actually trying to build a conclusion of your side based upon evidence that you claim is paramount, you keep on attacking my position and my view on this issue without any basis in reality. You automatically claim that since there is such little amount of evidence on my side of the argument, that your side of the argument is correct on the basis of legality and rights of the individual. You know why there is such little evidence? Because this is a topic that has not been examined in conclusive empirical studies. From my research, I have seen how little research there is on the effects of guns on college campuses (And what I have seen is a mixed bag- both your side and my side have little evidence). What this means is that neither side has much to back their argument other than personal opinion. Knowing that, you still claim to hold the superior position. On what grounds? None. No evidence at all. This is an arrogant form of debate that eludes the issue at hand and instead focuses on the other persons lack of evidence. The interesting thing is that were the roles reversed, you would have very little evidence as well. You are simply using your side of the argument to your advantage, basing it on the individual rights without much consideration of possible repercussions (which are inconclusive at the moment). How about you realize that both sides of this issue are not backed by any serious research that can objectively conclude whether such gun restrictions are beneficial or restrictive. I hold to my convictions due to the need of actual research to prove that such a release of gun restrictions would be beneficial. Without research that concludes your viewpoint, or mine, it would not be in the best interest of individuals to simply go ahead and allow CC in campuses in a vain hope that it would increase safety.
you dont live in texas so u cant do shit about it lol theyll probably follow through with this either way
There is evidence for his side e.g. the rates of crime having dropped continuously in shall-issue states, CCW licence carrying individuals being some of the most law-abiding citizens in the US, the stringent procedures required to get such a licence (i.e. the boozy knobheads in college aren't going to be able to get one). This argument really has been done to death; the horse has been beaten into a quivering pile of giblets. While I don't find his attitude in this instance to be rather endearing, his annoyance I can sympathise with. Facepunch debates in general are like Groundhog Day having been dragged out over 6 years.
[QUOTE=Kontradaz;28190838]This is absolute crap. You have provided absolutely nothing to this argument other than you constantly saying how my argument has no merit or that my side is ignorant or that my side lacks argument. Instead of actually trying to build a conclusion of your side based upon evidence that you claim is paramount, you keep on attacking my position and my view on this issue without any basis in reality. You automatically claim that since there is such little amount of evidence on my side of the argument, that your side of the argument is correct on the basis of legality and rights of the individual. You know why there is such little evidence? Because this is a topic that has not been examined in conclusive empirical studies. From my research, I have seen how little research there is on the effects of guns on college campuses (And what I have seen is a mixed bag- both your side and my side have little evidence). What this means is that neither side has much to back their argument other than personal opinion. Knowing that, you still claim to hold the superior position. On what grounds? None. No evidence at all. This is an arrogant form of debate that eludes the issue at hand and instead focuses on the other persons lack of evidence. The interesting thing is that were the roles reversed, you would have very little evidence as well. You are simply using your side of the argument to your advantage, basing it on the individual rights without much consideration of possible repercussions (which are inconclusive at the moment). How about you realize that both sides of this issue are not backed by any serious research that can objectively conclude whether such gun restrictions are beneficial or restrictive. I hold to my convictions due to the need of actual research to prove that such a release of gun restrictions would be beneficial. Without research that concludes your viewpoint, or mine, it would not be in the best interest of individuals to simply go ahead and allow CC in campuses in a vain hope that it would increase safety.[/QUOTE] Respond to my post please.
So much Euro sensation here. About how the USA is inferior because we allow the carrying of firearms.
europe: " lets do research about shooting kids and ban all weapons in hopes of preventing tragedy" america: " fuck that, let's grab the .45 and make dad proud"
[QUOTE=Zambies!;28191105]So much Euro sensation here. About how the USA is inferior because we allow the carrying of firearms.[/QUOTE] Seems pretty [B]superior[/B] to me. [editline]21st February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Moose;28191155]europe: " lets do research about shooting kids and ban all weapons in hopes of preventing tragedy" america: " fuck that, let's grab the .45 and make dad proud"[/QUOTE] Glad to know all of Europe is one country and that all Americans own a gun.
[QUOTE=Zambies!;28191105]So much Euro sensation here.[/QUOTE] not really
[QUOTE=Zambies!;28191105]So much Euro sensation here. About how the USA is inferior because we allow the carrying of firearms.[/QUOTE] I live in EU and I hate that. I'd love to own a firearm, but noo, you can't use it.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;28189976]Even if your evidence was valid, what your argument essentially boiled down to was this: "College campuses are safe enough, they don't need to be able to carry guns." This is faulty in and of itself. How does the fact that there are less homicides there now mean that adding guns will make it worse? Adding guns to a scenario does not always make it more dangerous, contrary to what you may think. As GunFox and several others have pointed out, other places allow people to carry concealed weapons, and these are still adults, as irrational as you believe they are. And for a final point, when have we have EVER started banning things because we didn't [B]absolutely need [/B]them? That's like if I said, "We don't need cigarettes in society, our lungs are healthy enough, let's ban cigarettes outright." There is no logic behind it.[/QUOTE] The logic lies within the fact that before making such a drastic change within our educational institutions, we should first make sure that such a change is beneficial. As far as I have seen, there is no evidence to support the fact that increasing the amount of gun holding students within a campus location is beneficial in the majority of situations. You may link to CC in other societal locations or the qualities of CC holders, but that is within a different environment and not one wherein a bunch of college students are together and live a different lifestyle.
[QUOTE=Zambies!;28191105]So much Euro sensation here. About how the USA is inferior because we allow the carrying of firearms.[/QUOTE] no i don't really see that at all [editline]21st February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Kontradaz;28191201]The logic lies within the fact that before making such a drastic change within our educational institutions, we should first make sure that such a change is beneficial. As far as I have seen, there is no evidence to support the fact that increasing the amount of gun holding students within a campus location is beneficial in the majority of situations. You may link to CC in other societal locations or the qualities of CC holders, but that is within a different environment and not one wherein a bunch of college students are together and live a different lifestyle.[/QUOTE] of course it's always been my theory that, given the history of poor communication between faculty, students, and authorities at school shootings, this could likely lead to accidental violence in the event of a shooting. It would, of course be unclear who the original shooter was, and so the person taking action against the shooter could likely be, themselves, shot by someone thinking that they were the shooter, and so on. I have no doubt that the majority of CCW licensed-individuals are responsible people, but I have a huge amount of doubt in the ability of people to properly communicate the nature of the situation to the few people who have concealed-carry weapons (making this legal won't mean everyone and their mother will start bring guns to school; there will still only be a very small number of armed individuals, probably not much larger (or even smaller) than the proportion of concealed-carry licensed individuals within the population at large)
[QUOTE=Kontradaz;28191201]The logic lies within the fact that before making such a drastic change within our educational institutions, we should first make sure that such a change is beneficial. As far as I have seen, there is no evidence to support the fact that increasing the amount of gun holding students within a campus location is beneficial in the majority of situations. You may link to CC in other societal locations or the qualities of CC holders, but that is within a different environment and not one wherein a bunch of college students are together and live a different lifestyle.[/QUOTE] I'm all for confirming whether or not it would be beneficial, but first we should determine if it will be negative. You evidence does not prove that, as it merely shows that there are more crimes in the nearby off-campus area than on campus. I ask you, what does that have to do with guns? Keep in mind that there being less homicides in the off-campus area does not mean that it is because there are no legal guns.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;28191376]I'm all for confirming whether or not it would be beneficial, but first we should determine if it will be negative.[/QUOTE] uh that's implicit in confirming if it is beneficial or not
well if two guys end up shooting each other, you can always do police work and ask the students which of the two was more awkward socially and edgy or on medication etc. then determine that one of them was most likely the aggressor of the situation, but this is all speculation and its not very likely that you'll see more than a few people die if something bad does happen because only a few will actually follow through with obtaining a license. this is all hypothetical because none of us live at that campus and know the people that inhabit it's hallways.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;28185116]Well to bring in some debate... Should people be required to have a permit to have a concealed firearm on campus?[/QUOTE] I honestly think this is a good compromise. Taking and passing a conceal carry class and permit shows the person is trained and knows the proper time to use a weapon. Plus, it lets them hide it, which keeps the hippies from shitting all over the place...
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;28191394]uh that's implicit in confirming if it is beneficial or not[/QUOTE] I merely say that because he is saying we should keep guns banned on campuses. [editline]21st February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Ridge;28191469]Plus, it lets them hide it, which keeps the hippies from shitting all over the place...[/QUOTE] What "hippies" are you referring to?
[QUOTE=Ridge;28191469]I honestly think this is a good compromise. Taking and passing a conceal carry class and permit shows the person is trained and knows the proper time to use a weapon. Plus, it lets them hide it, which keeps the hippies from shitting all over the place...[/QUOTE] Doesn't state law require a concealed weapons license to have a concealed weapon anyways?
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