• Guns on College Campus? What.
    306 replies, posted
people say this is a bad idea but if some angsty faggot starts popping people one student can bring him down and potentially save dozens of lives [editline]22nd February 2011[/editline] while I'm on the topic, why is it these students who do go and take out a campus never kill more than 20 people? I'm certain anyone who owns a gun at all has more rounds on hand than that, and it really shouldn't take more than one or two rounds to down the out of shape kids you usually find on a college campus
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;28198193]"skyrocketed" is a gross exaggeration (if it even is true), and the UK still has a much lower violent crime rate than the US and the violent crime rate didn't skyrocket when tons of gun restrictions were passed over the past two decades in Australia, for example[/QUOTE] Firearm crime and homicide in Australia didn't skyrocket, but it certainly showed a marked increased. However, we're all just treading the same circles we do in every one of these threads. I just don't see why it is so hard for some people to accept that MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, it's a [B]crime[/B] problem and not a firearm problem.
[QUOTE=ButtsexV2;28199543]while I'm on the topic, why is it these students who do go and take out a campus never kill more than 20 people? I'm certain anyone who owns a gun at all has more rounds on hand than that, and it really shouldn't take more than one or two rounds to down the out of shape kids you usually find on a college campus[/QUOTE]They're generally running away from the shooter and telling others to run, and humans are more resilient than we give ourselves credit for.
I wouldn't feel safe at a University where guns were allowed. Just saying. Whatever security a gun offers the owner, the feeling of safety everyone else has is gone.
[QUOTE=McFuckle;28198053]When UK nationally banned all firearms, violent crime skyrocketed - because the only people who had guns were criminals.[/QUOTE] I find the British coming here talking about how American gun laws just creates more deaths funny, considering the only place Civilians are allowed to legally own and even CARRY Handguns(!) in the UK is Northern Ireland, undeniably the most violent place in the UK
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;28199763]They're generally running away from the shooter and telling others to run, and humans are more resilient than we give ourselves credit for.[/QUOTE] don't know about you but if I got shot twice I would either be dead or writhing on the ground in pain
[QUOTE=thisispain;28198054]unlikely, the idea that guns will completely prevent massacres is as laughable as saying schools won't happen if guns were banned[/QUOTE] I didn't say it would completely prevent shootings, I'm arguing that it would give victims a chance to fight for their lives. I don't know about you, but if some kid walks into my college with a sub-machine gun, I'd want something more than a book and some plastic and aluminum chairs to defend myself. I'd say I have the right to arm and defend myself and my peers with my own firearm. Even if it never happens, it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. If you want to argue that it may cause more accidents because of irresponsible people, then increase the standards of the applications to appeal a CCP license. Require people to attend firearms safety classes. We're talking about colleges, not high schools, we're not worried about an "OG pulling a piece", we're talking about responsible people that had been background checked and tested carrying concealed firearms around for personal protection. [QUOTE=ButtsexV2;28199543]people say this is a bad idea but if some angsty faggot starts popping people one student can bring him down and potentially save dozens of lives[/QUOTE] They're sociopaths, not emo kids. They legitimately have something wrong with them, they're not "angsty". [QUOTE=ButtsexV2;28199543] while I'm on the topic, why is it these students who do go and take out a campus never kill more than 20 people? I'm certain anyone who owns a gun at all has more rounds on hand than that, and it really shouldn't take more than one or two rounds to down the out of shape kids you usually find on a college campus[/QUOTE] Because they're mentally ill, they're really not hell-bent on getting a high-score. If you've seen/read the media that came out of columbine, they dicked around for quite a while, herded their classmates around.
[QUOTE=yuki;28200530]I didn't say it would completely prevent shootings, I'm arguing that it would give victims a chance to fight for their lives. I don't know about you, but if some kid walks into my college with a sub-machine gun, I'd want something more than a book and some plastic and aluminum chairs to defend myself. I'd say I have the right to arm and defend myself and my peers with my own firearm. Even if it never happens, it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. If you want to argue that it may cause more accidents because of irresponsible people, then increase the standards of the applications to appeal a CCP license. Require people to attend firearms safety classes. We're talking about colleges, not high schools, we're not worried about an "OG pulling a piece", we're talking about responsible people that had been background checked and tested carrying concealed firearms around for personal protection.[/QUOTE] i'm not arguing anything except the idea that people having guns in school will somehow prevent school shootings is totally wrong
[QUOTE=thisispain;28201436]i'm not arguing anything except the idea that people having guns in school will somehow prevent school shootings is totally wrong[/QUOTE] This is probably true. Campus shootings often seem to be planned with suicide in mind anyways. A mall or other public location may differ in the standard MO of the shooter, but for a school I don't imagine it would prevent the shooting from happening in the first place.
I might be oversimplifying the grand spectrum of insane armed gunmen, but I'm pretty sure none of them plan on things going well for their own person.
[QUOTE=RyanDv3;28201702]I might be oversimplifying the grand spectrum of insane armed gunmen, but I'm pretty sure none of them plan on things going well for their own person.[/QUOTE] I think it's more about limiting the amount of innocent people injured/killed by the shooter before they do themselves in.
My biggest issue with giving everyone a gun would be the assumption that everybody is going to know who is the "bad guy" in a shooting. If you see 2 people shooting at each other in a public place, and you don't know anything about either of them or what's going on, how are you going to know who to shoot? What will you do? Will you do nothing? Will you shoot at them both? What if you do know what's going on and start shooting at the bad guy, and someone else sees that and starts shooting at you too, are you going to fire back at him? Maybe he's the bad guy's friend, or maybe he's a confused person who thinks [I]you[/I] are the bad guy. The potential for armed people to panic in that situation could make things backfire [B]hard[/B].
ya know i already made this argument a few pages back but whatevs I'm glad to see I'm not alone there is a very clear history of poor communication during school shootings
While I am in support of concealed carry, I do agree with one thing this guy said: ""People tell me that if they would have been there, they would have shot that guy. That offends me," Goddard said. "People want to be the hero; I understand that. They play video games and they think they understand the reality. It's nothing like that."" While he's gone about it in a condescending way, I do agree people strongly underestimate the sheer amount of fear being under threat of death induces.
Security guards seem to fix this problem. If you have 15 armed people in a room with 200 hundred people and someone starts firing, it'll be fucking CHAOS. Everyone will be running and nobody knows who the fuck to shoot. Security guards exist for a reason.
What i see here is a disconcerting lack of faith in any human being besides each one of you. This is fairly common in left politics i find. Everyone is an irresponsible moron, we got it. Except authority figures, those guys are gods among men.
that's not it at all. either engage in debate with some damn nuance or leave. that "OH you liberals/conservatives are always Xing" bullshit never gets anyone anywhere [editline]21st February 2011[/editline] i mean I disagree with the people who want to pass this law, but I, and most people in this thread, have the decency not to post dumb crap like "oh you conservatives just want to shoot everyone" have some damn integrity
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;28203555]that's not it at all. either engage in debate with some damn nuance or leave. that "OH you liberals/conservatives are always Xing" bullshit never gets anyone anywhere[/QUOTE] How exactly am i supposed to argue against an imagined scenario where everyone is a god damned idiot shooting each other in the street, not having any idea who they're shooting or who is actually the attacker. CCW classes address all of these issues and last i checked is most places they are mandatory to obtain one. Your weirdo violence orgy which hinges on everyone being a [b]total moron[/b] isn't really flying with me, even if it did fly and i accept your ridiculous argument, how are police or security officers immune from this stupidity? Maybe police and security guards will shoot the innocent.
[QUOTE=s0beit;28203576]How exactly am i supposed to argue against an imagined scenario where everyone is a god damned idiot shooting each other in the street, not having any idea who they're shooting or who is actually the attacker. CCW classes address all of these issues and last i checked is most places they are mandatory to obtain one. Your weirdo violence orgy which hinges on everyone being a [b]total moron[/b] isn't really flying with me, even if it did fly and i accept your ridiculous argument, how are police or security officers immune from this stupidity? Maybe police and security guards will shoot the innocent.[/QUOTE] except police officers train for these types of situations. it's fairly easy to get a CCW. all you need to do is take like an eight hour course and demonstrate that you can safely operate a gun.
what you do is you take issue with the scenario instead of slighting the person who posted it based on some silly perception of what the left thinks what you do is you engage in a resonable debate without using sweeping generalizations and ad hominem against your opponents
[QUOTE=JDK721;28203614]except police officers train for these types of situations. it's fairly easy to get a CCW. all you need to do is take like an eight hour course and demonstrate that you can safely operate a gun.[/QUOTE] Alright well please detail their training exercise for "everyone is shooting everyone", i'd like to hear it.
A few hours of training isn't enough to prevent a fish in the barrel situation. I don't necessarily think the scenario would be prevalent, but it's still likely to happen from time to time. Trained infantrymen sometimes shoot each other in the fog of combat, you have a 30 odd or so people panicking in a small room as gunfire is sprayed past their heads and it's very likely some stray rounds in return fire are going to be hitting unintended targets.
[QUOTE=s0beit;28203646]Alright well please detail their training exercise for "everyone is shooting everyone", i'd like to hear it.[/QUOTE] I meant the active shooter situation regular civilians who happen to have CCWs have absolutely no training in dealing with them
[QUOTE=JDK721;28203681]I meant the active shooter situation regular civilians who happen to have CCWs have absolutely no training in dealing with them[/QUOTE] I'm still waiting for an answer, what makes them more qualified to handle that situation exactly besides some vague perception of their training. Do you even know at all? It's a pretty simple question, back up your claim. CCW holders i believe are advised in their classes to call the authorities if their life is not in immediate danger, also, i would like for some one to post at least on article where this "fish in the barrel" incident took place, anywhere in the United States before. Just one would be nice. Two or more CCW holders shooting at an innocent man, or shooting at each other accidentally when one wasn't the criminal, one piece of evidence to back up your claim is all i want.
[QUOTE=s0beit;28203510]What i see here is a disconcerting lack of faith in any human being besides each one of you. This is fairly common in left politics i find. Everyone is an irresponsible moron, we got it. Except authority figures, those guys are gods among men.[/QUOTE] did you just say the left trusts authority figures? what insane definition of left-wing do you have? fyi conservatism is by definition an appeal to authority.
[QUOTE=s0beit;28203724]I'm still waiting for an answer, what makes them more qualified to handle that situation exactly besides some vague perception of their training. Do you even know at all? It's a pretty simple question, back up your claim. CCW holders i believe are advised in their classes to call the authorities if their life is not in immediate danger, also, i would like for some one to post at least on article where this "fish in the barrel" incident took place, anywhere in the United States before. Just one would be nice. Two or more CCW holders shooting at an innocent man, or shooting at each other, one piece of evidence to back up your claim is all i want.[/QUOTE] Ok conversely, show us a situation in the United States that has had a bunch of people in a small classroom all carrying pistols and defending themselves when a gunman walks through the door spraying automatic fire? To clarify again, I'm not arguing against concealed carry. I am completely in support of it. I am however arguing that a large group of people all firing weapons in a compact area in a high adrenaline situation has a rather large risk of what we call a major fuck up.
let me tell you the biggest fucking problem with the world when school shootings happen, instead of anyone even giving a shit about WHY people shoot up schools, everyone just cares about whether enough people with guns are on campus the solution isn't more people with guns, the solution is tackling the reason why people shoot up schools
[QUOTE=thisispain;28203755]did you just say the left trusts authority figures? what insane definition of left-wing do you have? fyi conservatism is by definition an appeal to authority.[/QUOTE] I was going to write "except the ones who hate gays" in there, anyway, you both appeal to authority and it's silly to think that you don't. Don't use guns, call the police. Use the government to enforce regulations on the private sector, no matter what your definition is that is authority. You are just as guilty although your intentions do seem nobler, I'll give you that. [QUOTE=thisispain;28203779]let me tell you the biggest fucking problem with the world when school shootings happen, instead of anyone even giving a shit about WHY people shoot up schools, everyone just cares about whether enough people with guns are on campus the solution isn't more people with guns, the solution is tackling the reason why people shoot up schools[/QUOTE] Right but until we make mental evaluations manditory for every man, woman and child it would be nice if we didn't get shot in the face.
[QUOTE=s0beit;28203782]I was going to write "except the ones who hate gays" in there, anyway, you both appeal to authority and it's silly to think that you don't. Don't use guns, call the police. Use the government to enforce regulations on the private sector, no matter what your definition is that is authority. You are just as guilty although your intentions do seem nobler, I'll give you that.[/QUOTE] uh that's not left-wing, it might be what glenn beck calls left-wing but that's not left-wing libertarianism and anarchism are both left. if you are looking for what the democrats are, they are probably center-right. [QUOTE=s0beit;28203782]Right but until we make mental evaluations manditory for every man, woman and child it would be nice if we didn't get shot in the face.[/QUOTE] that's a stupid false dichotomy
[QUOTE=thisispain;28203819]uh that's not left-wing, it might be what glenn beck calls left-wing but that's not left-wing libertarianism and anarchism are both left. if you are looking for what the democrats are, they are probably center-right. [/quote] lol, no [QUOTE=thisispain;28203819]that's a stupid false dichotomy[/QUOTE] No, it's a real dilemma. People who shoot up schools or commit violent crimes have psychological problems that need to be addressed. Unless you're just picking people at random it will be hard to stop these crimes without intervention in youth, remember most school shooters haven't committed crimes before. It isn't like they have a criminal record for us to fall back on and recommend for psychiatric treatment.
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