• NBC: Clinton lead over Trump would more than double without Sanders in the race
    95 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50437020]That implies that progressives can't get ahead on their own. Which is constructed from Dayz's stance. Why can't you understand me putting his thoughts into words =/= my own opinion.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure that distinction was clear from your post, but thank you for clarifying and sorry I got so defensive. I just take offense at the idea that progressives would somehow abandon their platform and vote for Trump out of spite. In reality, most progressives I've met are selfless to a fault, and I can't imagine any of them throwing their support to him, no matter how frustrated they might be. I try to drive that point home whenever possible. [QUOTE=Cone;50436920]Trump is worse because he's a sinkhole for [I]everyone's[/I] anti-establishment momentum - his, Bernie's, and the third party candidates' as well. in the likely event that he makes a mess of everything and no real reform happens in his first term, everyone gets disillusioned, the status quo suddenly seems a lot more sensible as the pressure on them is relieved, and people like Bernie are gonna have to spend half their campaign just divorcing themselves from people like Trump. you can already see the kind of name Bernie supporters have got in the media - they're painted like short-sighted, firebomb-happy anarchists. that'll only get worse ([I]far[/I] worse) if Trump gets elected. you see, even more than the candidate themselves, you need to think about what kind of political ground they'll leave behind. and while Clinton won't fix these things herself, i can guarantee you that she won't sabotage such efforts in the future. and it's a shame that American politics have reached a point where you have to metagame the system like this, but at least this road actually goes somewhere.[/QUOTE] Thanks again for mentioning this, Cone. It makes a lot of sense and I think it might help win over some undecided voters who are leaning towards Trump out of desperation. It's refreshing to get an angle on the Trump-vs-Clinton debate that isn't predicated on shaming voters into swaying one way or the other. If only this kind of discourse occurred on the 24/7 new media, perhaps we could start defusing all the tension that's been building up during this election.
[QUOTE=orgornot;50435543]Exactly. If Trump is a disaster then you will get a blue house and senate full of real liberals/progressives. You will [B]never[/B] get this if Hillary wins. But if Trump turns out to be good then everyone will benefit.[/QUOTE] If Trump wins and doesn't [i]immediately[/i] fuck things up, your genius master plan has failed. If he's even moderately well-liked, even if his policies piss all over the poor, we'll have another Reagan and push progressive policies back decades. Clinton is a product of Reagan conservatism, which shuttered the doors on any progressive policies, pushing the Democratic party [i]right[/i]. Why would it be different this time around? Why would a far-right candidate suddenly reinvigorate the left? The last time this happened, where Reagan won [i]every single state but MN[/i], the entire country was pushed right for decades and its only recently started crawling out of that slump. The reason people think Clinton is a moderate is because [i]the rabid popularity of Reagan conservatism pulled the entire political climate to the right[/i], making the Democrats more conservative than the progressive party they were in the time of FDR.
[QUOTE=Dayzofwinter;50434031]Exactly. The left is anti establishment in nature and to its core. It has become the Establishment. Without an evil other to fight against, it becomes repressive, corrupt, listless and splinters. Without a devil to rally against, it schisms and then begins to cannibalize it self. So yeah, without the darkness there can be no light. If Trump would be as a big disaster in office as Isak claims, he would be the greatest boon to the left since forever. So stop worrying about him.[/QUOTE] Liberalism isn't an ideology that depends on the existence of its ass-backwards counterpart. It stands on its own well enough - only, in the USA, both parties are pretty far right by the standards of the rest of the West. So the Democrats aren't really all that Liberal. Sanders is, sure, but he's a rarity.
[QUOTE]Dayz implied that progressives can't get ahead unless the other side [Trump] looks so impossibly bad that they can make it into office.[/QUOTE] No, not unappealing. As in actually destroy things. I am making a critique of the psychology of the left. No, not other side look bad. The only time the left does things right is when there is an opponent to actually fight or crisis needing to be corrected. [QUOTE]Why would it be different this time around? Why would a far-right candidate suddenly reinvigorate the left?[/QUOTE] The only time the left is of use is when there is a real villain to fight against, a real crisis to deal with. Which is why you should vote trump. I gave some examples to prove this point. This not a supporting of voting trump so progressive policies can be implemented. It is a satirical critique of the left. Seriously, when the last time a real threat been countered? Right now it all about jazz hands, getting into fights with 2nd wave feminists (triggerly puff versus Christina Hoff Sommers) BLM activists turning their org into human trafficking schemes and all sorts of other behaviors which indicate a lost sense of purpose and proportion. Without a villainous counter part to deal with (or a true crisis to deal with), the left is slowly becoming that abusive bad guy in the name of setting things right. The left defines and gains its self worth and identity by fighting. Without an outsider to clash with, they end up looking for any one or anything just keep the war going. [QUOTE]also why do we have to destroy everything to make a better world? what sort of fuckedup logic is that?[/QUOTE] Not logic. An observation. The left still acts like it is the 1960s or 70's. Things have changed. Their view point has not. They long for the days of being able to march and protest lockstep with the likes of Martin Luther King JR. By voting Trump, the work done can be reversed and this dream can come true. Also, who ever said the left is about empathy. BS. It is about power and control under the guise of empathy and so called morality.
I mean if I couldn't vote for Bernie I wouldn't vote at all. I waited 18 years for this shit and my first election is fucking Hillary Clinton and fucking Donald Trump. I don't want either, so I'm voting for neither.
[QUOTE=Maegord;50425334] I know it's hard, but you're eventually going to have to come to terms with the fact more people wanted Clinton than Sanders.[/QUOTE] To paraphrase Dwight Eisenhower, "Their candidate is negligible, and they are stupid." If the American people want a president that would make Richard Nixon look like Ronald Reagan, they're doing it right. What better represents America to the world than blatantly corrupt, warmongering, and stubborn politicians? It's a match made in heaven-I mean hell. Eat your heart out voters. (No seriously, how are only 30% of Americans obese. That number must be higher.)
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