• Pack Of Cigarettes 'May Rise To $100' In NZ
    281 replies, posted
[QUOTE=valkery;35693051]If the care necessitated by some is a fixable issue, and it saves money from being spent, I believe that the issue is entirely relevant.[/QUOTE] So you don't care about freedoms? Honestly tobacco is disgusting but the last thing we need is for the government to be the moral police like they are with every drug that's not nicotine and alcohol.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;35690914]Because the government doesn't belong in my body. I'm a big boy, I can make my own decisions.[/QUOTE] Your own decision to spend your money smoking something which you will become dependent on due to the strong addiction, and give yourself cancer. Who's a big boy, good for you! In all seriousness, doesn't sound too bad as a New Zealander myself. The people their strive to be healthy in so many ways, this is just a bonus for the majority.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;35692929]because that's not how a society of equals works. we all own a share in the government we all pay taxes we are all receive care equally. that some people need more care than others is irrelevant!![/QUOTE] Under normal circumstances I'd agree with this, but if you're knowingly causing long term harm to yourself, the burden shouldn't be put on other people to pick you up.
we drink and toke weed like nobodies business the fuck are you talking about
The thing that pisses the US most about NZ isn't it being nuclear-free, it's Pharmac
[QUOTE=Deamie;35694903] this is just a bonus for the majority.[/QUOTE] And we all know, the majority is always right. Grow up and realize that people smoking around you is fine because you(most likely) have legs or can ask them to move. If we were to eliminate everything that could cause anyone harm we would be living in a place without anything.
[QUOTE=Mlisen14;35691759]IT WAS DISMISSED, STOP DISCUSSING IT LIKE IT'S AN ACTUAL ISSUE[/QUOTE] What are you the discussion nazi? Someone mentioned it and we think it is interesting so we will discuss its theoretical implications. Anyway I am all for a certain amount of taxes for cigarettes, but not until cigarettes are completely unaffordable! A black market will be made! [editline]24th April 2012[/editline] A perfect government would give me the right to ruin my life and only my own life. I should be allowed to drink and do drugs until I get all sorts of horrible problems and die painfully since it was my desicion to do them. Now, the government should be allowed to discourage usage by telling the truth about it, and maybe a bit of taxation and scary packaging, but anything more is too much.
[QUOTE=Ericson666;35690819]Why allow your people to cause physical harm to themselves?[/QUOTE] Because they're people. The same logic can be applied to body modification, alcohol, or any number of things that are considered a personal choice. Your discomfort does not override the power an individual has over their own body. You are responsible for yourself. No one must share that burden with you against their will.
Basically the government can go "you should not do this cause it will fuck you over for this and that reason and we have sources and look at this scary picture" but not "you can't do this, or if you do you will pay dearly".
People who say that governments shouldn't stop people from causing harm to themselves. Sure, that's fine. I see your point there, but cigarettes hurt people around you as well. Now, that shouldn't be allowed.
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;35694964]Under normal circumstances I'd agree with this, but if you're knowingly causing long term harm to yourself, the burden shouldn't be put on other people to pick you up.[/QUOTE] You could blame just about any illness upon personal choice. That is flawed logic. You could say people with genetic abnormalities should have been aborted by their parents so as not to burden your tax dollar. Irrelevant. You could say obese people should live a live they do not prefer so as not to burden your tax dollar. Irrelevant. You could say people who get skin cancer from too much sun exposure shouldn't burden you. Irrelevant. Hell you could argue homosexuals who contract HIV shouldn't have been having sex with their own gender. Irrelevant. In Western terms, we live in a society consisting of many people, whose goal is to protect not the whole but the individual. Of all the things you can be complaining about, your tax dollar going toward individualistic and self-determinate idealism is not one of them. There is no cost that negates the ideological value of individual choice. It is not society's role to prevent risks from being taken. It is to compensate for those risks when they return negative results. We do not live in the fucking jungle. Society is altruistic by nature, and you cannot go around dictating who does and does not deserve its benefits. Either society serves everyone or it serves no-one. An exclusionary society is a failing society.
Smoking is a nasty habit anyway, most of my friends started smoking because they thought it was cool, that was 3 years ago, they still do it now but they realise they're complete dickheads for starting it. Most of the sporty one's who started smoking can't even do sports anymore because they're so unfit and run out of breath after the shortest sprint.
[QUOTE=Chicken_Chaser;35693236]So you don't care about freedoms? Honestly tobacco is disgusting but the last thing we need is for the government to be the moral police like they are with every drug that's not nicotine and alcohol.[/QUOTE] I agree with you. I wouldn't be arguing the point that I am if it weren't for NZ's Government-run healthcare system. IMO, it is unfair for people to expect others to pay for their unhealthy habits.
[QUOTE=LuckyLuke;35696023]Smoking is a nasty habit anyway, most of my friends started smoking because they thought it was cool, that was 3 years ago, they still do it now but they realise they're complete dickheads for starting it. Most of the sporty one's who started smoking can't even do sports anymore because they're so unfit and run out of breath after the shortest sprint.[/QUOTE] Bullshit on 3yearsliferuined, unless they were playing sports at a very high level or smoke a shitload that's just not true. And you're missing the point of it being a personal choice, just because this choice has consequence doesn't mean the government is right to just step in and fuck with people.
[quote]The Ministry of Health wants New Zealand to be smoke free by 2025 and the suggested increase gives the first hint of the drastic measures being discussed.[/quote] what a kind and compassionate thing to do, drastically increase the price of an addictive substance, surely that is a reasonable way to enforce your own lifestyle on a huge population of people. i can't believe 45 people thought this is a good idea, at least it makes an easy list of people to never take seriously ever again [editline]24th April 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=person11;35695319]Basically the government can go "you should not do this cause it will fuck you over for this and that reason and we have sources and look at this scary picture" but not "you can't do this, or if you do you will pay dearly".[/QUOTE] huh? what are you even talking about
[QUOTE=zakedodead;35696043]Bullshit on 3yearsliferuined, unless they were playing sports at a very high level or smoke a shitload that's just not true. And you're missing the point of it being a personal choice, just because this choice has consequence doesn't mean the government is right to just step in and fuck with people.[/QUOTE] Im not joking though, some of them can't run without running out of breath, I don't know how they can after only 3 years. But yeah, it IS a personal choice, but people have to be reminded of how it can potentially affect you, I mean, if there was a minor or major life-changing choice I had to make, i'd like to know the advantages / disadvantages of each option/choice given to me. So, the government stepping in and forcing them to change, that should definitely not be allowed because it's forcing a lifestyle that isn't theirs onto them.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;35696103]This is bullshit. [editline]24th April 2012[/editline] or you could ask the smoker to smoke somewhere else that's not next to you, or move a little yourself. it's not rocket science.[/QUOTE] Marbalo huh? I think your are MARLBORO IN DISGUISE. But yeah if you can't handle smoke walk away.
[QUOTE=chunkymonkey;35692094]But it's the nicotine that's the addictive chemical. I don't see how arsenic plays a part in making someone dependent.[/QUOTE] actually nicotine isn't THAT addictive, there's about 8 other chemicals in tobacco that synergise with the nicotine and make it act as a pretty potent mono amine oxidase inhibitor, hence people get depressed when they quit smoking. i think that's the real reason it's so addictive, not merely the nicotine.
[QUOTE=Ordigenius;35691989]the problem with cigarettes it's that they are harming not only the smoker, but the people nearby him[/QUOTE] Then smokers should just be ineligible for certain health care discounts instead of making each pack cost a ridiculous amount which just fuels a stupid black market this is silly
Welcome the massive growth in the black market and associated crime lovingly :) Authoritarian measures like this are not the answer, education is the answer and if people continue to smoke tobacco even when they know the dangers it should be left up to them as it is their liberty and they should have to pay for the associated medical costs.
Now do the same with alcohol, if you already want to make more people who've made their own choices mad.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;35690914]Because the government doesn't belong in my body. I'm a big boy, I can make my own decisions.[/QUOTE] I completely agree that people should decide themselves what they want to do witht heir body, but this is *still* a choice. I think it is a outragous price though, but I don't find the system here in Denmark bad. There's no "gain" from smoking (there's of course the relaxing aspect, but still), and many young people begin early on, which is not a good thing. Lungcancer is pretty expensive to treat as well, and as we have free helthcare here in Denmark, the 8-10$ isn't by any means too high. [editline]24th April 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=JustExtreme;35696376]Welcome the massive growth in the black market and associated crime lovingly :) Authoritarian measures like this are not the answer, education is the answer and if people continue to smoke tobacco even when they know the dangers it should be left up to them as it is their liberty and they should have to pay for the associated medical costs.[/QUOTE] Now, if we go this route, people should also pay for the education wasted on them - they took away 7 years of their lives, why shouldn't they pay for the education that could've gone to a longer-living person? If we had to pay for all state-related wasted resources because of personal choices, society would eb a mess.
[QUOTE=valkery;35691076]More like; "Your childish actions could end up costing many people the funds that they should get from our healthcare system because of an accident or from no fault of their own. Since you are most likely going to get cancer because of the actions that you take, we are going to make it very expensive for you go take those actions. Then we can put the money we would spend on you to good use saving people that truly deserve it."[/QUOTE] by that logic someone who breaks his leg leaning too far on a ladder also deserves to pay $10k or whatever the ludicrous bills are in the US, purely because a momentary decision.
Fuck just cigarettes, let's make all drugs legal. Except pot, it's called dope for a reason.
[QUOTE=Drsalvador;35696486]by that logic someone who breaks his leg leaning too far on a ladder also deserves to pay $10k or whatever the ludicrous bills are in the US, purely because a momentary decision.[/QUOTE] No, because that was a momentary, reaction that, while unfortunate and possibly preventable, was not a long drawn out group of actions that led to his hospitalization. Also, a broken leg is much easier to fix than lung cancer, diseased liver, and failing kidneys.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;35690914]Because the government doesn't belong in my body. I'm a big boy, I can make my own decisions.[/QUOTE] yeah but your second-hand smoke doesn't belong in my body either.
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;35697025]yeah but your second-hand smoke doesn't belong in my body either.[/QUOTE] Hold your breath.
[QUOTE=Ordigenius;35691989]the problem with cigarettes it's that they are harming not only the smoker, but the people nearby him[/QUOTE] In my country smoking inside a public building is illegal. This includes bars and restaurants. Add to that I don't know many smokers who actually stick to non-smokers in order to blow their smoke right on their face.
Thats not a good thing. Groups will form over there JUST to sell cigarettes illegally, cause its a good business. Now what happens when two of these groups have a fight over their territories where they sell the cigarettes? Figure out the rest. And another reason why i think its bad is that smoking is entirely our decision, not the governments.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;35690808]Thank god the world has governments to protect people from choice![/QUOTE] I think it's a good idea. :colbert: Smokers can ruin their lungs as much as they want, but I'm not a fan of passive smoking. At least alcoholics don't go around spitting vodka on everyone.
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