• Congress Passes Restrictions On Military Funeral Protests, Delivers Blow To Westboro Baptist Church
    163 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Detective P;37085365] Basically, you're strawmanning my statement there because you don't understand the law.[/QUOTE] You want people to have the right to do annoying stuff just for the sake of doing it, at as many people's expense as humanly possible? That's insane! What happened to keeping public order?
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[QUOTE=Detective P;37085604]Are you kidding me? I want people to be able to express their beliefs and not be censored as long as they aren't breaking the law. It's like no one gets the concept of liberties and rights here. Can you give me a legal reason why someone protesting outside from a cemetery during a funeral is in any legal way different than someone protesting outside a courthouse while a law is being made? Here's a hint: it hurts people's feelings is not a legal reason to tell someone they don't get to say what they believe where they want to and when they want to. By the standard people are giving here, you all should have your right to speak in this section taken away because your opinions hurt my faith in humanity and damage my already fragile and grieving mentality. Because it inconveniences me, you don't get to speak. Deal?[/QUOTE] So people should be allowed to express any beliefs ever without any kind of rationale. Basically me going up to you and yelling in your face that your dad died because of angry space-monkeys. I'm not just inconveniencing you. Soon i'll place ads in TV about the Angry space-monkeys. I'll encourage people to disregard the doctors orders because of space-monkeys and tell them to fuck their kids, because the space-monkeys tell me that it's healthy. In a culture where rationale and proving ones basis for said argument takes second place to "FREDOM TO YELL ANYTHING ANYWHERE! NO MATTER HOW DUMB AND PROVOKING!", I'll get a massive following and i can exploit these idiots however i want. That's nothing to you... yet. However the ripples of my actions will seep into culture, politics and even education. Soon TV-Journalists will follow the idea of the angry space-monkeys and laws will be passed according to Angry Space-Monkey code. Soon, i'll conveniently discover an ancient text That orders every 13 year-old girl to my sacred space-palace to provide me with endless succor. Insanity with free reins breeds insanity. Knowledge = Freedom, yelling ain't. In this case, it's actually directly obstructive to freedom since someone somewhere who isn't WBC is going to get problems with this now (though i don't see how). This isn't "Only freedom to express as long as i like the sound" This is freedom to express as long as you're making logical sense, Not harassing anyone, Respecting local ethics/laws and don't disregard peoples feelings. And i'm not talking "oh he cursed jesus, i'm offended" No. I'm talking "Who the fuck is he to say that about my son or me? What does he know?" Personal insults. Not cool. Not cool at funerals. They're now officially uncool within 300 feet and 2 hours before/after. But guess what, they're uncool outside that space too. It's about respecting your fellow man. I find people against this "just because of principle" are the most spineless people ever. They have to respect for their fellow man when they try to give their entirely clueless viewpoint some weight on the discussion. Freedom isn't a principle. It's Happiness and coexistence. Harassment isn't coexistence and verbal abuse isn't happiness. It's entitlement, retardation and evil.
Freedom is a double edged sword and having too much of it is going to let idiots like the WBC run circles around the law with no repercussions. There's protesting and then there's just fucking blatantly spewing hate speech. With great power comes great responsibility and the WBC is anything but. Obviously trying to edge your way around the first amendment like this is a bit questionable but if it means silencing one of the most predominant and terrible hate groups in existence to a small extent then I suppose I'm all for it.
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[QUOTE=Bomimo;37086322]So people should be allowed to express any beliefs ever without any kind of rationale. Basically me going up to you and yelling in your face that your dad died because of angry space-monkeys. I'm not just inconveniencing you. Soon i'll place ads in TV about the Angry space-monkeys. I'll encourage people to disregard the doctors orders because of space-monkeys and tell them to fuck their kids, because the space-monkeys tell me that it's healthy. In a culture where rationale and proving ones basis for said argument takes second place to "FREDOM TO YELL ANYTHING ANYWHERE! NO MATTER HOW DUMB AND PROVOKING!", I'll get a massive following and i can exploit these idiots however i want. That's nothing to you... yet. However the ripples of my actions will seep into culture, politics and even education. Soon TV-Journalists will follow the idea of the angry space-monkeys and laws will be passed according to Angry Space-Monkey code. Soon, i'll conveniently discover an ancient text That orders every 13 year-old girl to my sacred space-palace to provide me with endless succor. Insanity with free reins breeds insanity. Knowledge = Freedom, yelling ain't. In this case, it's actually directly obstructive to freedom since someone somewhere who isn't WBC is going to get problems with this now (though i don't see how). This isn't "Only freedom to express as long as i like the sound" This is freedom to express as long as you're making logical sense, Not harassing anyone, Respecting local ethics/laws and don't disregard peoples feelings. And i'm not talking "oh he cursed jesus, i'm offended" No. I'm talking "Who the fuck is he to say that about my son or me? What does he know?" Personal insults. Not cool. Not cool at funerals. They're now officially uncool within 300 feet and 2 hours before/after. But guess what, they're uncool outside that space too. It's about respecting your fellow man. I find people against this "just because of principle" are the most spineless people ever. They have to respect for their fellow man when they try to give their entirely clueless viewpoint some weight on the discussion. Freedom isn't a principle. It's Happiness and coexistence. Harassment isn't coexistence and verbal abuse isn't happiness. It's entitlement, retardation and evil.[/QUOTE] Yes, people should be allowed to express any beliefs, whether they have a rationale or not. Nice Space-Monkey Strawman, you aren't fooling anyone. That stuff doesn't happen. And people's freedom of expression don't have to make logical sense. What sounds logical to me sounds crazy to you, and vice versa. If illogical speech was made illegal, those laws could be used to censor political opposition. And don't disregard people's feelings? words can hurt, deal with it. I find people who support censorship in order to "respect your fellow man" are the most spineless people ever. Freedom is a principle. Freedom is much more important than happiness and coexistence, especially since you can't be happy and unfree. Censorship is thought policing.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;37080150]'incredibly liberal' lol you have free speech zones.[/QUOTE] Clearly we don't know anything, being from those "fairly conservative" free speech nations. Hell, can we even think on our own without the government telling us what we should say?
[QUOTE=Detective P;37085604] I want people to be able to express their beliefs and not be censored as long as they aren't breaking the law. It's like no one gets the concept of liberties and rights here. [/quote] Define "harassment" in legal terms, then. I'm pretty sure you aren't really protesting anything when all you're doing is stating "God hates fags" and "I'm glad your son/daughter died!" at a fucking funeral. Ah, here it is. [quote]harassment (either harris-meant or huh-rass-meant) n. the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands. The purposes may vary, including racial prejudice, personal malice, an attempt to force someone to quit a job or grant sexual favors, apply illegal pressure to collect a bill, or merely gain sadistic pleasure from making someone fearful or anxious. Such activities may be the basis for a lawsuit if due to discrimination based on race or sex, a violation on the statutory limitations on collection agencies, involve revenge by an ex-spouse, or be shown to be a form of blackmail ("I'll stop bothering you, if you'll go to bed with me"). The victim may file a petition for a "stay away" (restraining) order, intended to prevent contact by the offensive party. A systematic pattern of harassment by an employee against another worker may subject the employer to a lawsuit for failure to protect the worker.[/quote] [quote]Can you give me a legal reason why someone protesting outside from a cemetery during a funeral is in any legal way different than someone protesting outside a courthouse while a law is being made? Here's a hint: it hurts people's feelings is not a legal reason to tell someone they don't get to say what they believe where they want to and when they want to.[/quote] Because harassment. [quote]By the standard people are giving here, you all should have your right to speak in this section taken away because your opinions hurt my faith in humanity and damage my already fragile and grieving mentality. Because it inconveniences me, you don't get to speak. Deal?[/QUOTE] There's a difference between an internet forum and a funeral procession. They all have their specific purposes, and on a forum, you have the power to block/ignore the posts you find so offensive to your sensibilities. Kinda hard to ignore a bunch of raving loonies with day-glo signs PAH-RAYYYYZIN' THA LORD-DAH! because your kid died "defending them da-gum faggots!" Though a friend of mine on Facebook did point out a slight hypocrisy with this bill: [quote]What irritates me most about Westboro is that it's nothing short of an inbred cult and very little has been done to them to stop their blatant and belligerent harassment of people under the guise of church legitimacy. It's sad that they can get away with all that hate, but if a college group had a sit-down and did a peaceful protest, cops would rush in with S.W.A.T. teams and the protesters would be hit with tear gas and rubber bullets.[/quote]
It's about time they made WBC's disgusting conduct towards our veterans illegal. What they do is just plain evil. and they make people mad on purpose in attempts to get someone to attack them, then sue the person into bankruptcy, which is how they probably continue funding their operations. Well done congress, you got one right. +1
[QUOTE=Bomimo;37082322]That is the thickest, most ignorant and most republican post i've seen in my entire existence. Here's why: You proceed to not read the article, presume in your little skull that Harassment is being abolished and proceed to post about how BAD that is! Because FREEDOM!!! READ![/QUOTE] So it's ok to take away one's guaranteed right to express their opinion when you don't agree with it?
You should be able to express yourself only as long as it's well mannered speech. WBC is freedom turned into chaos. Funereal is not a place where you should be expressing your "opinions" about dead people and their families. What WBC does is also not a protest because no one at the funereal will do anything about WBC's ideas. If you want to protest, do it near a government facility. Would it be okay if KKK went to black man's funereal and started spouting racial slurs? If yes, this is not the kind of freedom I want. What WBC does is hurt the common man, not some government authority. If your freedom allows you to hurt a common man, then your freedom is shit.
[QUOTE=Beetle179;37075076]I'm sorry, why is this getting so much support? Aren't we always pouncing on politicians who try to pass laws that are obviously in violation of the Constitution? Why is this an exception? So what, WBC is a terrible organization (though they don't practice what they preach, they just do what they do so that they can sue people who attack/harass them), but why is it suddenly okay to strip them of their rights as American citizens? I don't support what WBC does. I really don't. I hate them just as much as the rest of you. But this is ridiculous. I honestly hope this gets overturned by the Supreme Court. [editline]a[/editline] For those who aren't aware, the first amendment grants all American citizens the right to freedom of "speech, press, assembly, religion, and petition".[/QUOTE] You raise a really important point, and everyone who immediately dismissed it is a fool. That said, they are limited to 300 feet away from grieving family members of [i]dead[/i] men/women, which I am hard-pressed to consider a violation of free-speech.
The Supreme Courts view on Free Speech (ever since Brandenburg v. Ohio) is that it can only be limited if someone is trying to directly incite violence or criminal behavior. You can even advocate violence, as long as you are not directly inciting it. I don't see how "god hates fags" violates this.
[QUOTE=zombieslaya;37104259]So it's ok to take away one's guaranteed right to express their opinion when you don't agree with it?[/QUOTE] No. I'm against it when it's objectively wrong and is actual Harassment disguised as a protest to exploit one of the bajillion loopholes in a flawed constitution that no one wants to fix because for some odd reason, it's holy. And you still didn't read the OP.
[QUOTE=Bomimo;37105830]No. I'm against it when it's objectively wrong and is actual Harassment disguised as a protest to exploit one of the bajillion loopholes in a flawed constitution that no one wants to fix because for some odd reason, it's holy. And you still didn't read the OP.[/QUOTE] I did actually, the human wall method works very well for dealing with people like the Westboro Baptist types and it doesn't involve politicians taking away people's right to exercise free speech. [hd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82ZbmcjKh4I[/hd]
[QUOTE=zombieslaya;37106598]I did actually, the human wall method works very well for dealing with people like the Westboro Baptist types and it doesn't involve politicians taking away people's right to exercise free speech. [/QUOTE] Harassment =/ Free speech. You need to get that before you argue with anyone from europe. Respecting your next of kin works fine over here as a social norm, but you guys... It's a massive failure, as we can see. Yet WE still have anti-harassment laws. You're free to speak, but don't go offending people without justifiable reason to do so. It works fine and i feel you guys would do well with that. Your social norms are degrading seriously fast. People are so busy taking care of family values that they don't ever realize that they're the whole problem. People are so busy defending abusive peoples rights, that they never see that revoking right to abuse wouldn't even harm them. When you have no logic behind what you're saying, yet claim the right to abuse, favor and even deny services towards people who see through your shallow idea, then we're in a shit position. Over here, one can sue, with you guys, it seems to be all cool. That Romney will want to pass bedroom laws, forbid stem cell and Aids research and many other logically sound things, just because some space-monkey told him to via an ancient book that is an utter shit lie. Do you think that is all ok? Should Romney or anyone else be able to force-pass laws based on the bible? Should he even be allowed to run for presidency when so far, he's denying every system of logic that a president will need to have total understanding of in order to lead. Does this guy even have any idea about how society works? How often do you protest a funeral? For real? Ok. How often does WBC NOT harass the family of or the dead soldier directly or indirectly when they protest? They excuse themselves with "But the family came to us and started yelling" No shit sherlock. As someone already said. If these were muslims, everyone would be a-okay with silencing them. But let's see what happens next. There's a giant Sikh uprising in USA right now, yes? Let's wait and see what this ends with and then we can decide if it's only ok because Jesus or you guys are actually for real OK with legit protests, let alone harassment in public areas.
Obligatory [video=youtube;JrTFa-vhSMw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrTFa-vhSMw[/video]
[QUOTE=Detective P;37085365]Actually, it's not private property because my apartment is in a complex, which is private property. if you wanted to camp out on the sidewalk and not block traffic then yes, you do have that right. But not 24/7 because protests or public displays must be within your local or state ordinance's time codes which can not be seen as unfair by the Court. Nor can you blare the music because of sound ordinances. Basically, you're strawmanning my statement there because you don't understand the law.[/QUOTE] so you resort to saying i can't or shouldn't because of laws that restricts my speech, yet you fully support grieving already volatile family members by having people saying their sons or daughters are faggots going to hell? nice why do people keep fucking saying SLIPPERY SLOPE, WHATS NEXT, and etc.? we already had the 2 hour before / after protest law, you don't see the government one-upping it and saying you can't protest the government 10 hours or after a bill has passed do you? this is a retarded concept and statement, protest is supposed to have meaning, not to spite others into hurting or suing them so they can make money off of it, get off your moral high horse. SHIT, CAN NO LONGER PROTEST A GRIEVING FAMILY'S FUNERAL WHICH HAS NO MEANING NOR RESULTS, FIRST AMENDMENT DEAD, WE CAN'T SAY SHIT WITHOUT BIG BROTHER BREATHING DOWN OUR SHOULDERS, ACLU! ACLU!
[QUOTE=lolwutdude;37108571] SHIT, CAN NO LONGER PROTEST A GRIEVING FAMILY'S FUNERAL WHICH HAS NO MEANING NOR RESULTS, FIRST AMENDMENT DEAD, WE CAN'T SAY SHIT WITHOUT BIG BROTHER BREATHING DOWN OUR SHOULDERS, ACLU! ACLU![/QUOTE] This is the part people seem to ignore, just so they can go all dramaqueen about their freedoms... It's not a protest, it's a mock protest. In Europe, you have to have authorization to do a protest. This isn't given via subjective evaluation, as many of you keep saying is how this law could be abused. It's done by you bringing evidence that your protest is legit. WBC claim to... what? I forget, but it's something about american being shit because homosexuals. So. They'd need to bring scientific studies that support that point, factual evidence that the bible is correct and that kind of shit. Ethics are entirely subjective, facts aren't. Protests NEED to be backed by facts. You CAN protest to raise awareness for starving african kids, because you can factually prove that they're starving. From there, using Ethos is perfectly ok. You really can't protest faggots ruining america, because you really can't objectively support that argument with valid sources. You can't start a protest because not enough people follow the bible or believe in it, because you can't factually prove shit of it. That's the whole idea behind managing protests. Does it make sense to have it? Are gays oppressed? Studies show "FUCK YES" well then protest! If anyone SHOULD goddamn protest, then it's gays and veterans who should protest WBC's abuse of mock protests in order to harass, because that can be proven wrong by backing it with social norms, studies of positive social conduct and law. It really ain't that hard to spot a legit argument and a shit one. Does the argument stand or are they just whoring? Why don't anyone follow that? Should the first ammendmend be fixed? Well, let's look up all the cases of it being abused and loopholed. If a ton, then protest, if none. Then this is officially a cover-up and China is now heaven compared to this.
[QUOTE=Bomimo;37082322]That is the thickest, most ignorant and most republican post i've seen in my entire existence. Here's why: You proceed to not read the article, presume in your little skull that Harassment is being abolished and proceed to post about how BAD that is! Because FREEDOM!!! READ![/QUOTE] No, he is right. This law is a direct attack on free speech. How about we set a 300 foot limit on protesting banks, and you can't be there two hours before or after the bank closes. Same for government buildings. Sounds good right? We wouldn't want to harass anyone.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;37109031]No, he is right. This law is a direct attack on free speech. How about we set a 300 foot limit on protesting banks, and you can't be there two hours before or after the bank closes. Same for government buildings. Sounds good right? We wouldn't want to harass anyone.[/QUOTE] There's a slight difference between protesting a bank's policies and a group of people screaming at a grieving family that their young deceased child is burning in hell, at the funeral.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;37109031]No, he is right. This law is a direct attack on free speech. How about we set a 300 foot limit on protesting banks, and you can't be there two hours before or after the bank closes. Same for government buildings. Sounds good right? We wouldn't want to harass anyone.[/QUOTE] yes, cause protesting banks or corporation is totally same as a grieving family that's in a state of wrecked mind! call the ACLU, doing this will inevitably kill our freedom of speech forever, heil hitler.
[QUOTE=Bentham;37109327]There's a slight difference between protesting a bank's policies and a group of people screaming at a grieving family that their young deceased child is burning in hell, at the funeral.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=lolwutdude;37109570]yes, cause protesting banks or corporation is totally same as a grieving family that's in a state of wrecked mind! call the ACLU, doing this will inevitably kill our freedom of speech forever, heil hitler.[/QUOTE] Really? I fail to see any difference. How is saying "Bankers ruined peoples lives" and "X corporation caused Y crisis" any different? [quote]call the ACLU, doing this will inevitably kill our freedom of speech forever, heil hitler.[/quote] And what the fuck does this even mean?
[QUOTE=King Tiger;37110356]Really? I fail to see any difference. How is saying "Bankers ruined peoples lives" and "X corporation caused Y crisis" any different? And what the fuck does this even mean?[/QUOTE] You're saying "This policy is bad for middle class workers!" is completely and undeniably equal to "Your child died young and we're glad and he's in hell and a faggot and you're going to hell too"? One is a justified protest, the other is harrassment.
[QUOTE=Tigster;37111014]You're saying "This policy is bad for middle class workers!" is completely and undeniably equal to "Your child died young and we're glad and he's in hell and a faggot and you're going to hell too"? One is a justified protest, the other is harrassment.[/QUOTE] Not it is not because they believe that God wants all faggots and soldiers to die and they believe it is imperative that homosexuality cease to exist. It is just as valid a concern as wanting to help the middle class.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;37110356]Really? I fail to see any difference. How is saying "Bankers ruined peoples lives" and "X corporation caused Y crisis" any different?[/QUOTE] you don't see any difference? what the fuck one is protesting the bank's policy and their practices that screws over a working class one is telling their still grieving members who lost their loved ones their son or daughter is burning in hell to spite them in hopes getting sued or attacked so they can make money off of it, if you can't tell the difference, i have no idea what to tell you, it's not just fucking 'hurting their feeling', it's not so fucking minuscule to compare it as 'hurting of feelings', it's literally mind torture, go attend a funeral for once, being on your computer 24/7 isn't helping with reality [QUOTE=King Tiger;37110356] And what the fuck does this even mean?[/QUOTE] it means you guys are fucking over exaggerating everything, you guys act as if this will kill your first amendment, it hasn't, not a single bit, and it will never be, stop thinking there's slippery slopes to every fucking thing, otherwise you might as well agree with religious people saying letting gays marry will lead to bestiality marriage
[QUOTE=lolwutdude;37111197]you don't see any difference? what the fuck one is protesting the bank's policy and their practices that screws over a working class one is telling their still grieving members who lost their loved ones their son or daughter is burning in hell to spite them in hopes getting sued or attacked so they can make money off of it, if you can't tell the difference, i have no idea what to tell you, it's not just fucking 'hurting their feeling', it's not so fucking minuscule to compare it as 'hurting of feelings', it's literally mind torture, go attend a funeral for once, being on your computer 24/7 isn't helping with reality it means you guys are fucking over exaggerating everything, you guys act as if this will kill your first amendment, it hasn't, not a single bit, and it will never be, stop thinking there's slippery slopes to every fucking thing, otherwise you might as well agree with religious people saying letting gays marry will lead to bestiality marriage[/QUOTE] I think you need to calm down.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;37111299]I think you need to calm down.[/QUOTE] cause putting profanity within my post implies im angry
[QUOTE=lolwutdude;37111390]cause putting profanity within my post implies im angry[/QUOTE] Yes actually. Also the snide insults and increasing amount of fallacies.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;37111186]Not it is not because they believe that God wants all faggots and soldiers to die and they believe it is imperative that homosexuality cease to exist. [B]It is just as valid a concern as wanting to help the middle class.[/B][/QUOTE] Are you fuckin serious?
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