Jeremy Clarkson really doesn't want to make another car show, this time by comparing transgenderism
502 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Joz;49597835][QUOTE]"And her parents had simply indulged this whim."[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
Well at least he's complied to identifying them the right pronoun, right?
Disregard all that Napoleon shit and whatnot, I thought the consensus on gender dysphoria was that it is a mental sickness cured by reassignment, is that right?
Real political issues? Two pages of minor discussion?
A celebrity fuels the media publicity train by saying something contriversial and dumb? 7 pages in three hours.
I can't believe that people are even giving what he said any sort of real attention. Reading through the thread, honestly the way both sides are acting are really fucking dumb. Step back and look at the first two pages of "lol no u" arguments or whatever. Neither side of this argument has represented themselves wrong at all and honestly, it's like watching two groups of angry kids throwing shit at each other.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49599126]Except they do? Literally every trans person I know of feels immensely better once they start hormones. Hell since I started hormones my own mood has been 30 times better then its EVER been in my life.[/QUOTE]
Hold on, in [url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1502990&p=49598694&viewfull=1#post49598694]this post[/url] you admonished someone for using personal anecdotes. You can't complain when other people use personal anecdotes, then use anecdotes yourself.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49599126]The mind should never be modified to suit the body.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you'll find many people who actually believe that. See the thread where a woman cut off her own legs because she strongly felt she shouldn't have them- the consensus is generally more 'you need psychological help' than 'yes, make your body fit your mind'. Not to imply that transgenderism is in any way the same as wanting to cut off your legs, but you can't say definitively that the mind should never be modified to suit the body when there are a plethora of examples where the contrary is socially accepted.
i think jeremy clarkson discovered that the only way to be relevant now is to spew 1/8th right 7/8th wrong statements.
[QUOTE=madnath619;49599427][b]Real political issues? Two pages of minor discussion?
A celebrity fuels the media publicity train by saying something contriversial and dumb? 7 pages in three hours.[/b]
I can't believe that people are even giving what he said any sort of real attention. Reading through the thread, honestly the way both sides are acting are really fucking dumb. Step back and look at the first two pages of "lol no u" arguments or whatever. Neither side of this argument has represented themselves wrong at all and honestly, it's like watching two groups of angry kids throwing shit at each other.[/QUOTE]
Man dude I wish I was as cultured as you so I can be on your level.
Different people care about different things. Not only that but it should come as no shock people care more about pop culture, celebrities, and random crap over things that require much more thought and knowledge. Stop twirling your wine and put the glass down.
[QUOTE=madnath619;49599427]Real political issues? Two pages of minor discussion?
A celebrity fuels the media publicity train by saying something contriversial and dumb? 7 pages in three hours.
I can't believe that people are even giving what he said any sort of real attention. Reading through the thread, honestly the way both sides are acting are really fucking dumb. Step back and look at the first two pages of "lol no u" arguments or whatever. Neither side of this argument has represented themselves wrong at all and honestly, it's like watching two groups of angry kids throwing shit at each other.[/QUOTE]
I can only assume you failed to read past page 2 and missed [url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1502990&p=49598711&viewfull=1#post49598711]this post[/url] and a lot of the other stuff afterwards. It is silly that we have to have a 7 page discussion about something which could really be resolved with two posts, but that's how it is.
[QUOTE=madnath619;49599427]Real political issues? Two pages of minor discussion?
A celebrity fuels the media publicity train by saying something contriversial and dumb? 7 pages in three hours.
I can't believe that people are even giving what he said any sort of real attention. Reading through the thread, honestly the way both sides are acting are really fucking dumb. Step back and look at the first two pages of "lol no u" arguments or whatever. Neither side of this argument has represented themselves wrong at all and honestly, it's like watching two groups of angry kids throwing shit at each other.[/QUOTE]
the problem with posts like these, is that they always go "I'm better than both groups I'm shit talking, get good" essentially.
People who are invested in this conversation on the pro trans side are invested because they are either trans, have trans friends, or in general, support the cause of trans people. For most people in that boat, sitting back and letting people say completely unfounded things is a bad thing and should at the very least, be argued against. Yes, this doesn't end up very far for the people arguing.
Transgenderism is an issue in todays world, and the way it's approached by some people is an issue in todays world, and having a discussion about that is hardly dumb.
What are we supposed to do but argue or talk? Is the world missing out on something by us spending 7 pages on this, and not 7 pages on your pet issue? What is the world missing out on because of this?
Why do you even care so much that there's a discussion important to some people that you just don't care about?
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49599402]FP has a sizable transgender community. The vast majority of FP is quite tolerant. (Hell I'm trans myself)[/QUOTE]
Hey, that's all g man, good for you and have a great day!
[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;49599441]Man dude I wish I was as cultured as you so I can be on your level.[/QUOTE]
well tbh he's right in a sense that we're giving attention to someone we shouldn't give attention to, but then again that's not our fault.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;49599354]I really hate when arguments devolve in to arguing semantics over definitions provided by Google
usually not even an actual Dictionary source just Google
[editline]e[/editline]
and I know you got it from Google both because you quoted the Google provided definitions almost verbatim and also because if you had gone on Merriam Webster or Oxford or some shit you would have read
or
both of which Jeremy here fits under[/QUOTE]
After following a train of thought through Merriam-Webster I conclude that under their definition you could say that he's bigoted. Because dislike means "a feeling of not liking or approving of something or someone".
I fucked myself with my own argument.
I don't think Jeremy is hateful. Just look at his article on the sunday times.
[url]http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/comment/columns/jeremyclarkson/article1659305.ece[/url]
no one has posted the full thing yet, so we can't actually argue about him honestly. It even implies he's changed his mind. Or amended it.
[QUOTE=T-Sonar.0;49599441]Man dude I wish I was as cultured as you so I can be on your level.[/QUOTE]
Since when was what I said anything to do with some sort of culture? Nice way to spew words with no real reason.
And yeah, I guess I shouldn't be shocked that people care more and that stuff. While it's a big interest, it's great that people are willing to give attention to a person who is blatantly trying to get it. You are feeding the kind of shitstorm that was intented to be created. Get over being "offended" after you've made a point of him being dumb, and stop falling for shit like this.
[QUOTE=kenji;49598820]It's starting to feel like every time you post a dissenting opinion, or just generally playings devils advocate on the subject you're automatically labled as transphobe.[/QUOTE]
I have the feeling that those people tend to forget that outside of America, the UK and Thailand, that transgenderism is really uncommon. There are more than enough countries where it is practically unheard of.
Hell, the Netherlands is seen as one of the most liberal countries in the world in regards to legitimizing LBGT laws, including the first to legitimize same-sex marriages, yet in my more than 20 years that I've lived here, I've yet to meet one single trans person.
[QUOTE=madnath619;49599478]Since when was what I said anything to do with some sort of culture? Nice way to spew words with no real reason.
And yeah, I guess I shouldn't be shocked that people care more and that stuff. While it's a big interest, it's great that people are willing to give attention to a person who is blatantly trying to get it. You are feeding the kind of shitstorm that was intented to be created. Get over being "offended" after you've made a point of him being dumb, and stop falling for shit like this.[/QUOTE]
Oh no people are arguing about the wrong pet cause on the internet better let them know what they need to care about instead
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49599491]Oh no people are arguing about the wrong pet cause on the internet better let them know what they need to care about instead[/QUOTE]
You've missed the point of what I'm saying so much you're somewhere completely different.
Read, comprehend, post.
[QUOTE=catbarf;49599431]Hold on, in [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1502990&p=49598694&viewfull=1#post49598694"]this post[/URL] you admonished someone for using personal anecdotes. You can't complain when other people use personal anecdotes, then use anecdotes yourself.
[/QUOTE]
[quote=http://www.wpath.org/uploaded_files/140/files/IJT%20SOC,%20V7.pdf]A prospective study conducted in the Netherlands
evaluated 325 consecutive adult and
adolescent subjects seeking sex reassignment
(Smith, Van Goozen, Kuiper, & Cohen-Kettenis,
2005). Patients who underwent sex reassignment
therapy (both hormonal and surgical intervention)
showed improvements in their mean gender
dysphoria scores, measured by the Utrecht Gender
Dysphoria Scale. Scores for body dissatisfaction
and psychological function also improved
in most categories. Fewer than 2% of patients
expressed regret after therapy.[/quote]
Is that satisfactory?
[quote]
I don't think you'll find many people who actually believe that. See the thread where a woman cut off her own legs because she strongly felt she shouldn't have them- the consensus is generally more 'you need psychological help' than 'yes, make your body fit your mind'. Not to imply that transgenderism is in any way the same as wanting to cut off your legs, but you can't say definitively that the mind should never be modified to suit the body when there are a plethora of examples where the contrary is socially accepted.[/quote]
Fair enough.
[QUOTE=patq911;49599476]After following a train of thought through Merriam-Webster I conclude that under their definition you could say that he's bigoted. Because dislike means "a feeling of not liking or approving of something or someone".
I fucked myself with my own argument.
I don't think Jeremy is hateful. Just look at his article on the sunday times.
[url]http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/comment/columns/jeremyclarkson/article1659305.ece[/url]
no one has posted the full thing yet, so we can't actually argue about him honestly. It even implies he's changed his mind. Or amended it.[/QUOTE]
Googled it, and I don't have a sub so this is taken from a random user on reddit, apparently it ends with:
[quote]But then I thought of something. Let's just say that for a moment that one in 1,000 are transgender. Or one in 100,000. Or even that it's actually just one. Let's say that there is one person out there who is a woman living in a man's body, or the other way around. I started to imagine what life might be like for the poor soul. It would be dreadful. Absolutely awful. And all they seem to want to make their life better is a third gender option box on official documents. That's not really the end of the world for everyone else, is it?[/quote]
If this is the case then I guess it's Jeremy doing a very good job of making people buy times subscriptions. If this is the case, then maybe we can drop our pitchforks against Jeremy a bit, but I hope that some people were educated by this discussion.
[QUOTE=madnath619;49599496]You've missed the point of what I'm saying so much you're somewhere completely different.
Read, comprehend, post.[/QUOTE]
No I actually fully got what you were saying thanks so much though
[QUOTE=patq911;49599476]After following a train of thought through Merriam-Webster I conclude that under their definition you could say that he's bigoted. Because dislike means "a feeling of not liking or approving of something or someone".
I fucked myself with my own argument.
I don't think Jeremy is hateful. Just look at his article on the sunday times.
[url]http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/comment/columns/jeremyclarkson/article1659305.ece[/url]
no one has posted the full thing yet, so we can't actually argue about him honestly. It even implies he's changed his mind. Or amended it.[/QUOTE]
I really get the impression from the lead-in on that article that he's changed his opinion. Jeremy ribs everything and everyone, even the things and people that he likes. With "i'll be honest i thought it was fake a few years ago!!" it sounds like the rest of that thought should basically be "my opinion has changed"
[QUOTE=NeonpieDFTBA;49599511]Googled it, and I don't have a sub so this is taken from a random user on reddit, apparently it ends with:
If this is the case then I guess it's Jeremy doing a very good job of making people buy times subscriptions. If this is the case, then maybe we can drop our pitchforks against Jeremy a bit, but I hope that some people were educated by this discussion.[/QUOTE]
So it's "i think this is dumb but i don't care, live and let live" - whatever. That's fine by me.
[QUOTE=Jordax;49599489]I have the feeling that those people tend to forget that outside of America, the UK and Thailand, that transgenderism is really uncommon. There are more than enough countries where it is practically unheard of.[/quote]
There are a variety of reasons for that. Social acceptance allowing more people to come out being the major one.
[quote]
Hell, the Netherlands is seen as one of the most liberal countries in the world in regards to legitimizing LBGT laws, including the first to legitimize same-sex marriages, yet in my more than 20 years that I've lived here, I've yet to meet one single trans person.[/QUOTE]
Personal anecdotes.
How would you know IF you saw a trans person.
Different groups of people tend to linger in different areas at different parts of the day.
etc
etc
Also conservative here; gender dysphoria is real, transgirls are girls and transboys are boys as far as I'm concerned. Conservative doesn't mean "bigoted ignoramus"
e: my merge
[QUOTE=Tsanummy;49599360]Yeah, it's not like it's happening all around the world in this very moment, and all of those radical ideologies just formed in a single generation, right?
We have thousands of people buried in common graves here in spain, that were killed just because they belonged to a certain collective, and that happened 40 years ago here, in Europe.
But if that's all you can reply I'm not going to bother educating you, it's better for me to express this to the people who will listen, as long as it's before bigoted cunts get to their heads
Now go call me a SJW and win the discussion for me, please[/QUOTE]
Maybe I'm naive to think that really can't happen in the West. I don't think it will ever be normal to kill people for being transgender, or for being gay, or for whatever reason. Fringe obviously, maybe even in some countries, but those countries are known to be unfriendly to gays and women. I would be worried about them, I AM worried about them. They need to change their culture.
And then you imply I've been corrupted by bigots. or maybe I am one myself? Didn't I say a few pages back I was on your side?
[QUOTE=Jordax;49599489]I have the feeling that those people tend to forget that outside of America, the UK and Thailand, that transgenderism is really uncommon. There are more than enough countries where it is practically unheard of.
Hell, the Netherlands is seen as one of the most liberal countries in the world in regards to legitimizing LBGT laws, including the first to legitimize same-sex marriages, yet in my more than 20 years that I've lived here, I've yet to meet one single trans person.[/QUOTE]
*you've never knowingly met a trans person. They don't all wear signs.
"Well I knew she was trans because she drank like 3 gallons of water a day"
[QUOTE=patq911;49599543]Maybe I'm naive to think that really can't happen in the West. I don't think it will ever be normal to kill people for being transgender, or for being gay, or for whatever reason. Fringe obviously, maybe even in some countries, but those countries are known to be unfriendly to gays and women. I would be worried about them, I AM worried about them. They need to change their culture.
And then you imply I've been corrupted by bigots. or maybe I am one myself? Didn't I say a few pages back I was on your side?[/QUOTE]
If I remember correctly, the rates of violent crime and sexual assault against trans people is much higher than normal.
[QUOTE=Jordax;49599489]I have the feeling that those people tend to forget that outside of America, the UK and Thailand, that transgenderism is really uncommon. There are more than enough countries where it is practically unheard of.
Hell, the Netherlands is seen as one of the most liberal countries in the world in regards to legitimizing LBGT laws, including the first to legitimize same-sex marriages, yet in my more than 20 years that I've lived here, I've yet to meet one single trans person.[/QUOTE]
That's quite the assumption. Throughout my whole life I've met two self-proclaimed transitioning persons, had five friends of the second circle go through reassignment, and my cousin has been openly genderqueer since the age of thirteen. I'm not saying it's incredibly common, but as far as I know dysphoria can happen in anyone.
You've probably unknowingly met people who struggled with their gender identity without speaking out about it. By all means there's nothing wrong with never having met one, don't get me wrong. But I don't feel the gross numbers of transfolk has increased, only the publicity of it.
If I have to be dead honest about it, the subject's actually really awkward to me and I'm sure as hell not alone on this boat.
[QUOTE=NeonpieDFTBA;49599572]If I remember correctly, the rates of violent crime and sexual assault against trans people is much higher than normal.[/QUOTE]
oh boy I'm doing semantics again, but that's not "normal" (not your use of the word, the guy I was replying to before). The general population does not think that that's ok. and rightfully so, forget transgender, that's not something ANYONE should experience.
And I don't think the general population would ever think something like that's ok.
All you defensive transsexuals are pretty bigoted yourselves.
[QUOTE=Satansick;49599637]All you defensive transsexuals are pretty bigoted yourselves.[/QUOTE]
How the fuck do you not see the irony in saying this!?
-snip-
[QUOTE=Last or First;49597905]Why do I get the feeling that he's in the closet?[/QUOTE]
Clarkson is secretly a lesbian?
[QUOTE=WhatANiceName;49599653]Man, his actions have always annoyed me but I put up with it because he was pretty entertaining in Top Gear, but this just hurts me on a personal level, it's a shame that so many people will blindly follow him.
I see myself everyday, and know some other trans people, but it is still pretty uncommon, I think you hear more from america because it just has a greater population, and don't foget that Thailand also has a population of around 70 million, that plus it being more accepted might make the number of trans people be bigger than it actually is.[/QUOTE]
The Dutch have a very down to earth attitude, and being different than others tends to be frowned upon (just act normal and you're weird enough). What people mistake for tolerance is really just general apathy towards things.
I personally believe the whole trans craze of the last couple of years is just a result of people lost in a massive grey crowd thanks to being connected to literally everyone on the world, and they are desperate to express themselves as a unique individual snowflake, so they do weird things like pretend to be animals or whatever.
But I also believe people should be allowed to live their lives however they want, as long as it doesn't endanger or seriously inconvenience others. If someone wants to chop their manbits off, chug a bottle of pills and live the rest of their lives as a woman... More power to them. Whatever makes you happy.
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