Jeremy Clarkson really doesn't want to make another car show, this time by comparing transgenderism
502 replies, posted
[QUOTE=kenji;49598820]It's starting to feel like every time you post a dissenting opinion, or just generally playings devils advocate on the subject you're automatically labled as transphobe.[/QUOTE]
its almost like I might have been referring to the people who didn't present an actual argument besides "hurr I'm a train" or "it doesn't exist and I'm going to ignore everything you're saying to the contrary".
And more often then not those dissenting opinions are based on a simple ignorance of the facts and an unwillingness to do any research about the topic before they decided to start spouting nonsense.
[QUOTE=TheJoey;49598690]i find it very interesting that people are so afraid and stubborn of debating this subject that they, instead, just attack someone's character over a simple disagreement. so he said something you didn't like. big fucking deal. he didn't murder a transgendered person while screaming "tranny", he was asked for his opinion and he gave it. holy shit call the police
i respect anyone's right to do whatever they want to their bodies. however, doctors indulging people who want to change genders so that they can sell hormone treatments without telling anyone the risk of the mental disorder that someone may have (please refer to transgender suicide rates) is one of the reasons discussions on this subject grind to a halt, and why "not feeling like your body is your own in the gender you were born" is so widely accepted as ok. that feeling is most certainly not "ok" and may be the tip of the iceberg in terms of serious mental disorders. the fact that i bring this up will get very many people riled up and i'll probably get one or two people to believe i'm anti-trans or transphobic, instead of engaging in the topic.
i feel like the west has this obsession over transgenders and putting them up on this pedestal like they're gods, instead of just treating them like human beings. it's just above and beyond the call of transgendered rights. a celebrity riding the coat tails of their failing sports popularity and the family ties to the kardashians recently completely avoided scrutiny of their vehicular murder by becoming transgendered and not very many people batted an eye, and instead called them brave and plastered their face all over every magazine imaginable. why? why the obsession? why the immediate rejection of thinking differently from you?[/QUOTE]
I'm on mobile so I can't go into detail but this feels misguidedly ignorant, almost like you mean well but don't quite realize what you're saying. Transgender suicide rates are high because body dysmorphia is by all accounts unbearable and because transgendered people are still treated really poorly in general, not because of widespread misdiagnosis and resulting depression. I agree that the phenomenon of putting LGBT people on a pedestal is real and stupid, but for everyone that isn't on the cover of Entertainment Weekly, being trans doesn't involve a lot of praise (from what I hear). The second half of your 2nd paragraph is phrased in a way that makes it difficult for me to understand what you mean, so I won't try and address it unless it's rephrased.
[editline]24th January 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=strayebyrd;49598727]There's a difference between gender and gender roles. Gender is woman or man, gender roles are what is typically expected of these people due to historical social constructs.
That's my understanding of it at least[/QUOTE]
That makes sense, after a little reading it seems the gender being a social construct thing is pretty much universally accepted as being bull.
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;49597920]ho boy where do i fucking start?[/QUOTE]
oh look, people have opinions fruxodaily
you should try having one
[QUOTE=Xmeagol;49598924]oh look, people have opinions fruxodaily
you should try having one[/QUOTE]
You're not entitled to having your opinion go un criticized.
[QUOTE=TheJoey;49598690]i find it very interesting that people are so afraid and stubborn of debating this subject that they, instead, just attack someone's character over a simple disagreement. so he said something you didn't like. big fucking deal. he didn't murder a transgendered person while screaming "tranny", he was asked for his opinion and he gave it. holy shit call the police [/quote]
When ones opinion is both factually wrong and, at the very least, indirectly harmful then ones opinion is undeniably that of a bigot.
[quote]
i respect anyone's right to do whatever they want to their bodies. however, doctors indulging people who want to change genders so that they can sell hormone treatments[/quote]
This literally never happens to my knowledge. All this shows is that you have a very poor understanding of the process of getting hormones or of medicine in general.
[quote]
without telling anyone the risk of the mental disorder that someone may have (please refer to transgender suicide rates) is one of the reasons discussions on this subject grind to a halt,[/quote]
Are you trying to insinuate that hormones cause suicide??????
[quote]
and why "not feeling like your body is your own in the gender you were born" is so widely accepted as ok. that feeling is most certainly not "ok" and may be the tip of the iceberg in terms of serious mental disorders. the fact that i bring this up will get very many people riled up and i'll probably get one or two people to believe i'm anti-trans or transphobic, instead of engaging in the topic. [/quote]
Perhaps you should spend less time justifying your views and more time actually elaborating on what those views actually are.
[quote]
i feel like the west has this obsession over transgenders and putting them up on this pedestal like they're gods, instead of just treating them like human beings.[/quote]
wut? I have never had anyone put me on a pedestal for being trans. I have literally never seen anyone do this in any way shape or form other then for Caitlyn Jenner (which is more a case of people idolizing celebrities then anything to do with trans people)
[quote]
it's just above and beyond the call of transgendered rights. a celebrity riding the coat tails of their failing sports popularity and the family ties to the kardashians recently completely avoided scrutiny of their vehicular murder by becoming transgendered and not very many people batted an eye,[/quote]
I'd love to see you even [I]try[/I] and support this.
[quote]
and instead called them brave and plastered their face all over every magazine imaginable. why? why the obsession?[/quote]
The obsessions is more because Caitlyn is a celebrity then due to her being trans.
[quote]why the immediate rejection of thinking differently from you?[/QUOTE][
Being opposed to transgender people has less to do with those people thinking differently and more to do with the fact that anyone who is opposed to the rights of trans people is undeniably a bigot.
[QUOTE=greasemunky;49598830]That's like playing the devils advocate on racial equality.[/QUOTE]
To you perhaps, but just comparing them doesn't make it so for everyone.
as much as a ~~transphobe~~ this makes me, no one is arguing for less rights, mockery, or punishment. and if they are they should be shamed. People are rightfully confused and or skeptical of claims. That's. It. Why does this have to be some sort of huge debate about people who are normally good, like most people on this forum. Why do we have to be attacked for an opinion that I would wager to guess most of us would likely change with more forthcoming evidence.
I for one just want to get to the bottom of this and science will lead us there. In the meantime my opinion is something went wrong and it resulted in some sort of mismatched feeling. Now that could affect other things that just, for lack of a better word, gender identification, it could also affect depression, which could explain why suicide rates are high. but now I'm just speculating.
but no, I'm on your side, label me a transphobe for not completely 100% agreeing with what you say. Labeling perfectly reasonable people as some sort of hateful monster. I'm on your side.
[QUOTE=Xmeagol;49598924]oh look, people have opinions fruxodaily
you should try having one[/QUOTE]
When ones opinion has no basis in fact then ones opinion should be criticized judiciously.
[editline]24th January 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=patq911;49598956]
as much as a ~~transphobe~~ this makes me, no one is arguing for less rights, mockery, or punishment. and if they are they should be shamed. People are rightfully confused and or skeptical of claims. That's. It. Why does this have to be some sort of huge debate about people who are normally good, like most people on this forum. Why do we have to be attacked for an opinion that I would wager to guess most of us would likely change with more forthcoming evidence.[/quote]
Perhaps because there IS sufficient evidence, or else the medical establishment wouldn't have gone around devising methods of treating it.
[quote]
I for one just want to get to the bottom of this and science will lead us there. In the meantime my opinion is something went wrong and it resulted in some sort of mismatched feeling. Now that could affect other things that just, for lack of a better word, gender identification, it could also affect depression, which could explain why suicide rates are high. but now I'm just speculating.[/quote]
The fact that you're speculating on things that are already known serves to outline your apparent ignorance of the topic at hand.
[quote]
but no, I'm on your side, label me a transphobe for not completely 100% agreeing with what you say. Labeling perfectly reasonable people as some sort of hateful monster. I'm on your side.[/QUOTE]
You aren't a transphobe. You are however ignorant of the topic you are discussing.
Wait, wasn't everyone defending him back when he punched the producer?
now he says one mean thing about transgender people and suddenly he's fucking worse than hitler and donald trump combined
jezza is still as based as always in my book
[QUOTE=Xmeagol;49598924]oh look, people have opinions fruxodaily
you should try having one[/QUOTE]
The existence of transexuals isn't really something you have "opinions" about
It's like, a fact. They exist.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49598943]You're not entitled to having your opinion go un criticized.[/QUOTE]
sadly doesn't seem to matter how many times its said
"opinions" is still the top way of excusing bigotry in SH
[QUOTE=DudesonFan;49599001]Wait, wasn't everyone defending him back when he punched the producer?
now he says one mean thing about transgender people and suddenly he's fucking worse than hitler and donald trump combined
jezza is still as based as always in my book[/QUOTE]
Definitely not. In my opinion, this headline could be condensed to "Massive arsehole is still a massive arsehole."
I condemned him for various reasons (Climate change denier, tory arsehole, racist) before the producer incident, all he does is add more reasons (which honestly I expected of him anyway) to dislike him.
[QUOTE=DudesonFan;49599001]Wait, wasn't everyone defending him back when he punched the producer?
now he says one mean thing about transgender people and suddenly he's fucking worse than hitler and donald trump combined
jezza is still as based as always in my book[/QUOTE]
Are you being funny or do you really not understand why people might defend a violent outburst but not an insulting column about transgender people?
[QUOTE=srobins;49598877]That makes sense, after a little reading it seems the gender being a social construct thing is pretty much universally accepted as being bull.[/QUOTE]
Gender roles and norms are usually what people are talking about when they say "gender is a social construct". Usually you only see that thrown around in groups who know what is meant by it anyway. So it's not exactly confusing terminology to those people.
You'll be somewhat hard pressed to find someone who actually has some weight behind their name say gender itself is a social construct. We've known it isn't for a while, hence why we distinct sex (the physical, genetic side) and gender (the hormonal and mental side).
I don't understand transsexuals either but I'd never say that out loud.
[QUOTE=Satansick;49599087]I don't understand transsexuals either but I'd never say that out loud.[/QUOTE]
You literally just did that?????
what a sensationalist headline :v:
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49598962]When ones opinion has no basis in fact then ones opinion should be criticized judiciously.
[editline]24th January 2016[/editline]
Perhaps because there IS sufficient evidence, or else the medical establishment wouldn't have gone around devising methods of treating it.
The fact that you're speculating on things that are already known serves to outline your apparent ignorance of the topic at hand.
You aren't a transphobe. You are however ignorant of the topic you are discussing.[/QUOTE]
As far as I've heard the medical establishment has tried multiple things, and unless I'm "ignorant" again I heard that some reassignment surgery/hormones don't actually reduce suicide rates. Though I will concede that's not the only metric. and how far should they go? If there was a treatment that makes you "normal" for lack of a better word, how many transgenders would do it? Now that I say it it does seem a little bit like "curing" the gay.
[editline]24th January 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49599094]You literally just did that?????[/QUOTE]
I think he means what Jeremy said, not that he would never say he doesn't understand transsexuals.
[QUOTE=patq911;49599111]As far as I've heard the medical establishment has tried multiple things, and unless I'm "ignorant" again I heard that some reassignment surgery/hormones don't actually reduce suicide rates.[/quote]
Except they do? Literally every trans person I know of feels immensely better once they start hormones. Hell since I started hormones my own mood has been 30 times better then its EVER been in my life.
[quote]
Though I will concede that's not the only metric. and how far should they go? If there was a treatment that makes you "normal" for lack of a better word, how many transgenders would do it? Now that I say it it does seem a little bit like "curing" the gay.[/QUOTE]
The mind should never be modified to suit the body.
I might as well walk up to Clarkson and say that he has a nice diesel Mercedes. Sure, it factually is a petrol car, but in my [i]opinion[/i] it is a diesel.
He's welcome to have an opinion, but having whether being trans is real is not really an opinion.
Based Clarkson saying it like it is. If Amazon fire him, he really should think about entering politics. It really feels like us conservatives have been gaining a voice these last few months. Quite a few right-wing Youtubers have emerged, internet free speech zones have grown in popularity, Trump's leading the polls and a close friend of mine recently came out to me as socially conservative.
On topic though, Clarkson's absolutely right. You can dress up and mutilate yourself as much as you like, you'll never truly be who you want to be. Sounds harsh but it's the truth. Maybe if you're lucky, you'll fool people and look somewhat passable, still won't be able to shit out babies or stick magazine pages together (i.e. what actual members of the sex can do).
Until the day that science can rewrite every cell in your body and you grow a baby oven, this case is closed.
[QUOTE=Craigewan;49598730]I'm pretty boggled that this appears to be some watershed for people on deciding that Jeremy Clarkson is a massive nob. He's had fucking distasteful views on the environment (and environmentalists etc), race, and generally being an all round mean-spirited tory cunt for the past ten/fifteen years and this is what pisses people off? Did anyone seriously [b]not[/b] expect him to hold this view?
He's a hyper-conservative dickwad, of course he doesn't support LGBT rights or believe the T part is a real thing.
I stopped watching Top Gear as a fucking teen because I got pissed off with him constantly making a joke out of things like Climate Change, Deforestation etc.[/QUOTE]
jesus, imagine being such an intellectually fragile snowflake that you get so upset you stop watching a critically acclaimed show just because of deliberate jabs designed to specifically go against the grain and people such as yourself
imagine not taking the jokes lightheartedly and brushing it off like a normal human being and instead throwing a tantrum and becoming just like the caricature the person on the television is making fun of
the only reason i was laughing at his jokes was because i knew somewhere people like you are getting offended and shutting off their televisions
Wow what a fucking fucker
[QUOTE=Nasspray;49599135]Based Clarkson saying it like it is. If Amazon fire him, he really should think about entering politics. It really feels like us conservatives have been gaining a voice these last few months. Quite a few right-wing Youtubers have emerged, internet free speech zones have grown in popularity, Trump's leading the polls and a close friend of mine recently came out to me as socially conservative.
On topic though, Clarkson's absolutely right. You can dress up and mutilate yourself as much as you like, you'll never truly be who you want to be. Sounds harsh but it's the truth. Maybe if you're lucky, you'll fool people and look somewhat passable, still won't be able to shit out babies or stick magazine pages together (i.e. what actual members of the sex can do).
Until the day that science can rewrite every cell in your body and you grow and baby oven, this case is closed.[/QUOTE]
I like how people like you almost always without fail ignore the literal mountains of evidence that show you have no fucking clue what you're talking about.
because if you did look at the studies, evidence, you'd quickly realize how wrong you are, how outnumbered you are, and how little your opinion on the matter actually means in the real world.
You're welcome to think what you want, but we're also welcome to think that based on evidence, you're actually just a hateful bigot.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49599158]I like how people like you almost always without fail ignore the literal mountains of evidence that show you have no fucking clue what you're talking about.
because if you did look at the studies, evidence, you'd quickly realize how wrong you are, how outnumbered you are, and how little your opinion on the matter actually means in the real world.
You're welcome to think what you want, but we're also welcome to think that based on evidence, you're actually just a hateful bigot.[/QUOTE]
It's the harsh truth. Trans will never be able to have babies with members of the opposite sex...or same sex...or whatever.
[QUOTE=Nasspray;49599135]You can dress up and mutilate yourself as much as you like, you'll never truly be who you want to be.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22051008[/url]
[url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22105293[/url]
[url]http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/AMA122.pdf[/url]
[url]http://www.wpath.org/site_page.cfm?p...n_webpage=3947[/url]
[url]http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/abou...resources.page[/url]
[url]http://www.apa.org/about/policy/transgender.aspx[/url]
It's the consensus of the medical community (eg, qualified people, not newspaper shitposters like Clarkson) that gender reassignment surgery is the single kindest and most reasonable way to go about helping people with gender dysphoria. Why do you want people to be unhappy with themselves?
[QUOTE=Nasspray;49599135]Based Clarkson saying it like it is. If Amazon fire him, he really should think about entering politics. It really feels like us conservatives have been gaining a voice these last few months. Quite a few right-wing Youtubers have emerged, internet free speech zones have grown in popularity, Trump's leading the polls and a close friend of mine recently came out to me as socially conservative.[/QUOTE]
oh boy
[quote]
On topic though, Clarkson's absolutely right. You can dress up and mutilate yourself as much as you like, you'll never truly be who you want to be.[/quote]
You really don't want to start this when its so blatantly clear you know nothing of you are discussing.
[quote]
Sounds harsh but it's the truth. Maybe if you're lucky, you'll fool people and look somewhat passable, still won't be able to shit out babies or stick magazine pages together (i.e. what actual members of the sex can do). [/quote]
"Shitting out babies" and "stick magazine pages together" are of course the only criteria for being a woman, right guys?
By that definition sterile women and people who cant.... "stick magazine pages together".... aren't women either.
[quote]
Until the day that science can rewrite every cell in your body and you grow and baby oven, this case is closed.[/quote]
Again the only basis for whether or not someone is a woman is if you can have babies or not, right? :rolleyes:
Hope the show's still on, been too excited for new Top Gear to finally pick up.
[QUOTE=kikomia;49599165]It's the harsh truth. Trans will never be able to have babies with members of the opposite sex...or same sex...or whatever.[/QUOTE]
Sure they can't have kids. I didn't know that having kids was the definition of "Being a woman".
Do you think women who are genetically unable to give birth aren't actually women? What do you call them? What about people with chromosal disorders who are male but have XX chromosomes?
Who are you to really say these things in contrast to the medical opinions of medical professionals who study this shit? Who are you to say they know nothing?
[editline]24th January 2016[/editline]
But like I said, without fail, people like you refuse to look at the medical evidence, every time.
[QUOTE=kikomia;49599165]It's the harsh truth. Trans will never be able to have babies with members of the opposite sex...or same sex...or whatever.[/QUOTE]
A gay cis man and a gay trans man can have biological children
friggin trans people period can have children before/after HRT depending on circumstances
I have personal anecdotal evidence that the "sticking pages together" works just fine. I mean not to the same degree, but same for cis? So yeah.
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