Police shoot crazy guy waving a knife in the middle of times square, all of it was caught on film
282 replies, posted
[QUOTE=AaronM202;37191513]If he didnt feel the effects of mace/pepper spray, why do you think he would feel the effects of a tazer?
Which i might add probably could have missed.[/QUOTE]
Why have you concluded that because mace didn't work a taser wouldn't have?
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;37191525]Why have you concluded that because mace didn't work a taser wouldn't have?[/QUOTE]
Because a guy posted in this very thread that he was tazed, and it was painful, but if he really wanted to he could shrug it off. I doubt this guy couldnt shrug it off if he shrugged off mace.
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;37191493]Because the methods don't all act in the same way and therefore can't be considered to not work because of another method no working[/QUOTE]
So you risk more lives, those of innocent civilians and officers, to protect the life of a criminal? This is a class A example of why personal morals have no place in law or procedures. If police officers followed your concepts, this man may have ended up harming, or even killing, multiple people.
If one life, that is attempting to take away the lives of another person or persons, has to be taken to ensure the safety of innocent people, so be it.
[QUOTE=AaronM202;37191536]Because a guy posted in this very thread that he was tazed, and it was painful, but if he really wanted to he could shrug it off. I doubt this guy couldnt shrug it off if he shrugged off mace.[/QUOTE]
You are concluding something based upon an anecdote, not a very reliable way to argue.
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;37191493]Because the methods don't all act in the same way and therefore can't be considered to not work because of another method no working[/QUOTE]
What are you even trying to say here?
They can't use less-lethal when they don't have any other options. A man is threatening bystanders and police officers, despite being completely outnumbered. He has already slashed his knife towards people around him, and he refuses to let go of his knife.
Do you
A: Attempt a less-lethal takedown, risking to get stabbed or slashed, and then having him turn on someone else
or, the super controversial
B: Respond to his lethal weapon with your lethal weapon, as training, instinct and regulations tell you to, guaranteeing you survive the day, and get to see your family again.
Also, police are trained in the effects of tasers, so many of them know how they work. If this guy could shrug off pepper spray, chances are high he would have shrugged it off too. We'll never know for sure, but if they took that risk and it failed, we have multiple people dead because of it.
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;37191548]You are concluding something based upon an anecdote, not a very reliable way to argue.[/QUOTE]
You're concluding everything you're saying based upon whatever the fuck it is you're pulling out of your ass right now. If life is so precious to you, why should the police risk getting killed over relatively small cases?
Why should the police not do their job by defending citizens against armed lunatics as quickly and cleanly as possible?
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;37191548]You are concluding something based upon an anecdote, not a very reliable way to argue.[/QUOTE]
Wow you're one to talk, you're saying "what if" to a scenario involving a guy with a knife, police, and innocent bystanders.
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;37191548]You are concluding something based upon an anecdote, not a very reliable way to argue.[/QUOTE]Its actually not anecdotal, there are plenty of recorded incidents of individuals ignoring the effects of tasers.
[QUOTE=AaronM202;37191573]Wow you're one to talk, you're saying "what if" to a scenario involving a guy with a knife, police, and innocent bystanders.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I am.
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;37191604]Yes, I am.[/QUOTE]
This makes your opinion null and void then, so nobody should listen to you.
Right?
Spot on.
When your posts start to degenerate into half assed beating around the bush, it's time to stop posting
[QUOTE=xxncxx;37190797]it looks like they had more than enough to surround him and get in close enough to tase and neutralize him. shooting him multiple times seems a bit unnecessary
[editline]11th August 2012[/editline]
if one didnt work then another one could have tried, if that still didnt work then shoot him in the knee and tackle him.[/QUOTE]
They aren't trained to shoot for knees, they shoot the center mass.
Also, there have been cases where tasers were not effective enough to take down a particularly tough or frenzied suspect. The spray did not work on him, and it was possible that if they waited longer he could be more than just a nuisance on the street, possibly entering into traffic or pedestrians at which point firearms would not be usable.
They acted properly.
[QUOTE=Jund;37191656]When your posts start to degenerate into half assed beating around the bush, it's time to stop posting[/QUOTE]
It isn't easy being opinionated on these forums, nor is it arguing against the majority, but I will take some timely advice and stop posting.
I'm just going to give you guys facts seeing as I've worked in this field and actually have used the tools they use. Its a field which I should be back into in a few months.
I'm only drawing this out because it seems that certain people can't grasp why you don't do what people are saying.
This situation is simple enough, man had knife, cut someone, then finally ran around and didn't give it up.
A knife is a weapon, it is more brutal and scarier then a gun. Why do you think movie directors use knifes in horror movies? Anyway, general rule is 21 feet is the minimum distance needed for an attacker with a knife to charge you and cut you several times before you can draw your gun and shoot a round.
This rule has been used in a court of law and stands on its own. Depending on the person attacking the the officers experience they may get a shot off, they may not. Anything closer then 21 feet is pretty much a death wish.
Tasers are great tools, but they're simply that - a Tool. Tasers are not to be relied on, training says that. Taser can fail, be ineffective or just plain miss. People have to understand how a taser works, when it fires probes come out, the probes shoot at like a 15-25 degree angle so they spread out. Depending on what is going on it is very easy to miss. The point is, training says use soft hand techniques and hard hand techniques and other defensive training when a situation a-rises. Tasers are fucking lazy in my opinion, people think they're reliable and should be used all the time. They're really shitty in my opinion. If it rains they can get fucked up, its a small computer with a plastic housing, and a battery that is it. Some times they fucking fail to even turn on and flash an error message. It could work is not a good enough answer for me, if you're one of them officers that leave shit to chance then get out of the job real quick. All you're going to do is hurt someone or yourself.
When deadly force is being used by someone you meet that with equal force. The use of force matrix isn't a step by step guide, you can go from verbal commands to deadly force within seconds. You can go from deadly force to verbal commands in seconds. It can bounce around till the situation is resolved. You simply don't risk yourself or other officers with stupidity like trying to disarm a person with a knife. You don't disarm them, you naturalize them. If you shoot him once and he goes down and lives, then so be it. If you shoot him once and he continues to rush you, you put in a few more till he stops moving. Call it what you want, but the guy made the choice to go and stab someone, then run around outside. A lot of officer carry back-up/defense knifes, because if deadly force is being used against them and there is a struggle they can use it. Hell if i have to I can take a rock and smash someones head in if they're trying to strangle me. Deadly force is deadly force, it does not matter what you use.
He was given a chance to surrender and he forced the polices hands. Sometimes the only person in control of the situation is the subject, police a reactive most of the time. The react to something or a subject.
In all honesty it isn't even worth arguing because you know what, the guy is dead. It was justified, end of story. Don't like it? Then don't be a nut trying to stab people with a knife.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;37191305]No, you shouldn't. When an individual poses a serious threat, they are trained to shoot to kill to guarantee it will neutralize the threat. Any time lost by using an alternative method is time that can be used to inflict harm on others.[/QUOTE]
They are not trained to shoot to kill. They are trained to shoot until the threat has been neutralized.
FYI: The taser only reaches 21' which is the boundary for the 21' foot rule. No cop is stupid enough to taze someone with a knife
[QUOTE=xxncxx;37190699]and none of these officers had a taser?[/QUOTE]
That guy was jumping and moving around a lot. They'd have to land two prongs on him and in the skin for a taser to work.
NYPD historically has a 20% hit ratio in a shooting situation.
[QUOTE=Bound;37190829]Posting this here for every armchair warrior that thinks cops have aimbots :
Tasers are unreliable as FUCK. I'd look up a video where a cop was five feet from a man, deployed the taser, the taser failed and he was jumped immediately and got the shit beat out of him / his eyebrow torn off but I'm busy right now.
Cops have a minimum safe distance of 25 feet from any armed suspect, especially one with a blade. Someone with a knife can sprint 25 feet in the blink of an eye, and knives do more damage than guns at extremely close range.
I don't think you know this but when you fire a taser both prongs don't go straight, one goes forward and then one goes in a downward angle. If your target so much as flinches your taser shot is fucked.[/QUOTE]
Not particularly relevant, but this shows how fast a person can strike
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4KROpdUkrM[/media]
[QUOTE=areolop;37191701]They are not trained to shoot to kill. They are trained to shoot until the threat has been neutralized.[/QUOTE]Yeah, kill. They are not trained to wound or go for non-lethal shots. They are trained specifically to aim for the center of mass and fire as many times as necessary to "neutralize" the threat. They only use the term "neutralize" because its nicer than saying "kill". Literally the first rule of any firearm safety course is "Do not aim at anything you do not intend to destroy." This goes far greater for law enforcement.
Was probably trying to commit suicide, people do this all the time honestly.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;37191355]you don't know what non lethal means[/QUOTE]
Out of interest, where do you think "verbal takedown" is on a scale of:
Non-lethal force, less-than-lethal force, lethal force.
Edit: I mean non-lethal as in "no chance to cause physical harm to suspect"
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;37191740]Yeah, kill. They are not trained to wound or go for non-lethal shots. They are trained specifically to aim for the center of mass and fire as many times as necessary to "neutralize" the threat. They only use the term "neutralize" because its nicer than saying "kill". Literally the first rule of any firearm safety course is "Do not aim at anything you do not intend to destroy." This goes far greater for law enforcement.[/QUOTE]
Just sayn' I know what you meant its just that people get the impression that police are just there to pop rounds in your ass.
[QUOTE=areolop;37191701]FYI: The taser only reaches 21' which is the boundary for the 21' foot rule. No cop is stupid enough to taze someone with a knife[/QUOTE]Actually, they do make cartridges that can reach up to 35 feet.
[QUOTE=Wolfmatyr;37191749]Out of interest, where do you think "verbal takedown" is on a scale of:
Non-lethal force, less-than-lethal force, lethal force.[/QUOTE]
None of the above. It goes under command, or officer, presence. Then it escalates into non-lethal (spray) and then to lethal
[editline]11th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;37191755]Actually, they do make cartridges that can reach up to 35 feet.[/QUOTE]
Law enforcement does not carry these (or atleast not around here)
[QUOTE=Wolfmatyr;37191749]Out of interest, where do you think "verbal takedown" is on a scale of:
Non-lethal force, less-than-lethal force, lethal force.[/QUOTE]
Non-lethal force does not exist. All 'non-lethal' force weapons are labeled 'less-than-lethal' or 'less-lethal' because they can usually cause deaths in some situations.
[QUOTE=areolop;37191759]Law enforcement does not carry these (or atleast not around here)[/QUOTE]They are only issued to law enforcement/non-civilian personnel. Civilians are limited to 15 foot cartridges.
[QUOTE=Ybbats;37191775]Non-lethal force does not exist. All 'non-lethal' force weapons are labeled 'less-than-lethal' or 'less-lethal' because they can usually cause deaths in some situations.[/QUOTE]
Ok, I think I wasn't clear in my message then.
I meant non-lethal as in "no chance of causing physical harm to a suspect".
[QUOTE=Wolfmatyr;37191812]Ok, I think I wasn't clear in my message then.
I meant non-lethal as in "no chance of causing physical harm to a suspect".[/QUOTE]
Tasers hurt, they are barbs that get stuck in your skin. Pepper spray is a major irritant to your eyes to put it simply and is not pleasant.
The only non-lethal I can think of is talking to a subject to get them to back down, and that rarely works.
[QUOTE=Wolfmatyr;37191812]Ok, I think I wasn't clear in my message then.
I meant non-lethal as in "no chance of causing physical harm to a suspect".[/QUOTE]
Yeah, then you're limited to yelling.
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