4-year-old boy dies after being mauled by pit bulls in Detroit
193 replies, posted
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49278001]Okay? Like I'm not disputing their power guy.
[editline]8th December 2015[/editline]
It's like all the argument can be is "here let me show you a gruesome picture because context is fucking meaningless"
[editline]8th December 2015[/editline]
The context of how a dog was raised is pretty vital in how that dog turns out. Due to the fact scummy people want scary dogs they go for a breed they know people like to really fucking dramatize. Those dogs aren't raised well.
There's no question of their power. People mistreat animals all the time. We really only have outcries like this when it's mostly informed by emotion.[/QUOTE]
Their power and capability is the core most of the argument - how are you missing that? It is their capability to do damage, particularly through their instinct-driven modus operandi, which makes them so dangerous.
Their jaw's muscles and joints linking it to the skull are like a hydraulic press. Machined to not dislocate or let up. You can't pry it open. Pain doesn't make it instinctively snap open like it often does with other breeds. They sometimes die and hold on for moments after, never even in the moment of being shot or mortally struck letting up. Once it's on, it tends to be on until a) it lets go b) what it has grabbed comes off or c) the animal is neutralized. I could break my dog's jaw. I could crush her ribs. She could kill me, one-on-one given the right circumstances, but I'd have a fighting chance. It's not a poodle either - it's a half American Foxhound and half Australian Cattle dog, the latter with smidge of dominant dingo heritage expressed in both the coloration of her eyes and the structure and curvature of her tail.
I could never out run her. Most breeds couldn't outrun her, but I would be able to grapple her if I could get a hold, and break her limbs, neck, or jaw with a particularly rough twist. I could even drop on my side or knees on her and with some reliability count on several of her ribs fracturing or her sternum fatally separating. I've fought dogs before, and they can be blocked, flipped, and out-postured into backing down. When I see a stray Pit coming towards me, I'm already bracing to follow the quickest route to the nearest high object, as it is my only real chance at survival if things go sour.
Because they don't use that power if they're well trained. The issue is their image means way too many scum bags buy them
If the issue was just their power what was that 500 word essay about them being unreadable?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49278059]Because they don't use that power if they're well trained. The issue is their image means way too many scum bags buy them
If the issue was just their power what was that 500 word essay about them being unreadable?[/QUOTE]
Because traumatic memories have a funny way of getting out of hand and writing the story once the conscious mind touches upon them. As I was typing, I was remembering the visceral moment in which I discovered that the three generations of semi-feral cats had been slaughtered after the neighbor's pit-bulls had broken first through the fence, and then through the wall of a cat-house constructed from 3/4 inch plywood and 2x4's, making their own entrance after discovering none were large enough. The entire carpet inside was red, as were the Plexiglas windows that had been lovingly cut out to be placed in the imitation of an English Tudor home by whomever at my mother's work had built and eventually donated to us. Their entrails, fur, and bits of bone and sinew littered the back yard.
I know exactly what would have happened if I had been home at such a young age. I would not have been able to stop myself from trying to stop them. These were animals I'd raised and cared for for a significant portion of my childhood, and from the pattern of blood and entrails, a large portion of the slaughter had been by and against the sliding glass door. As an adult I'd "Nope" the fuck out and know that there was no sense in intervening, but at 11? If I had been home, I probably would not be as intact as I am today. I might not even be alive, had I attempted to stop the two siblings in their blood lust.
The point I was trying to make in the first post before I got carried away by anxiety and nausea that such memories tend to evoke when they suddenly reemerge, is that the technique, strength, and psychology are all a result of them being bred to be exactly that. People who are trying to own them as family pets are taking something and training it to be and do everything it has been bred not to. They are pitting nature versus nurture, for the sole purpose of proving to themselves that they can. The traits I described are all traits that were favored to help them fight better. They aren't the traits of a domesticated animal. Breeds which were developed for pit fighting are more re-feralized than anything. Contrary to what you might think, breeding has a large impact on temperament as well as physical traits. For an example, look up the Russian domesticated fox breeding program. The rate at which they are able to completely alter the offspring to something so fundamentally different from the original animal should help you comprehend the breadth of impact breeding has on an animal.
[QUOTE=Pascall;49277601]Calling a pitbull a bloodthirsty monster for reacting to a stimulus in the only way it knows how is like saying a grizzly bear is a bloodthirsty monster for doing the same. Like???
It's an animal. If it feels like it's in danger or its dominance is being challenged, then it's gonna act on it. It's a common similarity of predatory animals.[/QUOTE][B]WHY THE FUCK DO YOU HAVE THAT KIND OF AN ANIMAL WHEN IT CAN ACCESS HUMAN CHILDREN?[/B] People aren't allowed to own fucking grizzly bears in the city for that very reason what the fuck. If you need to train your fucking dog not to maul kids you have a dangerous dog, I don't care if it's sweet and kind after training. They have all the qualities that make them incompatible with living in an urban neighborhood, they're large, muscular dogs noted for their bite and strong prey drive.
[QUOTE=OvB;49277719]There are millions of pit bulls in North America. [I]Millions.[/I] If the dogs are so dangerous, why aren't there millions of victims. The dogs are statistically harmless. [I][B]Because they don't kill for fun.[/B][/I][/QUOTE]They lead dog attacks by a pretty wide margin, they're not statistically insignificant, and no they do absolutely kill for fun.
Let me tell you a story.
I was about 16, had just woke up and I was staying at my uncle's farm to help out that summer because he broke his ankle. I had to go out and feed all the animals, make sure they were watered, clean out the stalls, and then get to work on chopping wood. I knew this was all my responsibility and I was genuinely okay with that because I could work at my own pace and it was peaceful. About halfway to the barn I heard an awful, ear-piercing [I]scream[/I] from the goat pen and I ran over to see what had happened; inside were a trio of pitbulls that were covered in blood and surrounded by dead goats and kids, and they were busy literally tearing another kid in half. My uncle had lost [B]$21,000 dollars[/B] (according to the insurance company) to three fucking dogs. Three. Dogs. Since the laws in Tennessee are apparently like the laws in Minnesota the owners of the dogs tried and failed to sue and guess were held liable for the damages.
Long and short of it is I really, really hate this breed of dog and I honestly can't stand people who own them. I'm just automatically disgusted by them because they always talk about how ~sweet and wonderful~ their dogs are and I'm just thinking of some of the sweet and wonderful dogs I grew up with that eventually snapped and went mean. Granted it isn't some inevitable thing but [I]sometimes[/I] it happens and when you have a dog like a fucking pitbull it should be a concern.
I literally did not say that pitbulls are not dangerous.
In fact, I have been saying the exact opposite !
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49278001]The context of how a dog was raised is pretty vital in how that dog turns out.[/QUOTE]
But that's just it -- plenty of attacks, specially to toddlers, were *unprovoked*, as in, they didn't DO anything to the dog, and it happened to caring owners.
Usually the reason you see a lot of stuff in the media about Pitbulls and other 'aggressive' breeds (Staffies in the UK) attacking people is because they have a bad reputation as attack dogs and get bought by people who don't treat them properly and teach them to attack. Someone I know has a Pitbull-Staffie cross and I swear he's one of the dopiest dogs alive, jumping on people's laps as if he were still a puppy and so on.
And yeah you do get isolated incidents where Pitbulls turn but that happens to any breed, it's just the media loves to make a shitshow about it. Blame the owner, not the dog.
[QUOTE=HybridTheroy;49271727]That's a great start, but I believe anyone that handles dangerous breeds should have to get some kind of certification.[/QUOTE]
I think we should require licenses to have kids, those come from a pretty dangerous species.
[QUOTE=GordonZombie;49278487]Usually the reason you see a lot of stuff in the media about Pitbulls and other 'aggressive' breeds (Staffies in the UK) attacking people is because they have a bad reputation as attack dogs and get bought by people who don't treat them properly and teach them to attack. Someone I know has a Pitbull-Staffie cross and I swear he's one of the dopiest dogs alive, jumping on people's laps as if he were still a puppy and so on.
And yeah you do get isolated incidents where Pitbulls turn but that happens to any breed, it's just the media loves to make a shitshow about it. Blame the owner, not the dog.[/QUOTE]
I've owned two doberman pinscher's, two Staffordshire Bull Terrier's and now a cross Staffie - absolutely nothing wrong with these dogs. That being said I've also got a parrot and a cat, they all have been fine amongst one another - maybe it's the fact I grew up in the country around animals as a child and what-not.
[QUOTE=Pascall;49278261]I literally did not say that pitbulls are not dangerous.
In fact, I have been saying the exact opposite ![/QUOTE]I've been following your posts and I realize you haven't specifically said that pitbulls aren't dangerous but you have said in no uncertain terms that they do bad things for a "reason." My point? Fuck their reason, if one exists at all. They're aggressive, territorial dogs that tear into people with little provocation; training and environment only go so far when they are hard-wired to fight. It's a breed characteristic after all and it's why they're so popular in dogfighting. Just like it would be fucking retarded to have a beagle or an Irish wolfhound act as a guard dog on a poultry farm it boggles my goddamn mind that people leave their children with these types of dogs. Actually? I wouldn't leave a small child alone with any dog. Period. I don't trust dogs. I like dogs, I own dogs, but in the back of my head I know no matter how much I love and care for them there is always a chance something bad could happen. People anthropomorphize their animals and think they're capable of all these complicated thought processes when they actually can't, then when some dipshit pitbull owner's kid gets their face torn off the owner is fucking baffled as to why that happened.
I'm not against people owning pitbulls, I don't think they should be banned or all put down or anything like that, but I getting real sick of pitbull owners trying to convince everyone that [I]their[/I] dog is an [I]angel![/I] #notallpitbulls am I right???? That doesn't even make any goddamn sense. They're responsible for over half of all attacks so either there's a ridiculous number of underground dogfighting rings out there or at least [U]some[/U] of those owners are full of shit.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49278617]I've been following your posts and I realize you haven't specifically said that pitbulls aren't dangerous but you have said in no uncertain terms that they do bad things for a "reason." My point? Fuck their reason, if one exists at all. They're aggressive, territorial dogs that tear into people with little provocation; training and environment only go so far when they are hard-wired to fight. It's a breed characteristic after all and it's why they're so popular in dogfighting. Just like it would be fucking retarded to have a beagle or an Irish wolfhound act as a guard dog on a poultry farm it boggles my goddamn mind that people leave their children with these types of dogs. Actually? I wouldn't leave a small child alone with any dog. Period. I don't trust dogs. I like dogs, I own dogs, but in the back of my head I know no matter how much I love and care for them there is always a chance something bad could happen. People anthropomorphize their animals and think they're capable of all these complicated thought processes when they actually can't, then when some dipshit pitbull owner's kid gets their face torn off the owner is fucking baffled as to why that happened.
I'm not against people owning pitbulls, I don't think they should be banned or all put down or anything like that, but I getting real sick of pitbull owners trying to convince everyone that [I]their[/I] dog is an [I]angel![/I] #notallpitbulls am I right???? That doesn't even make any goddamn sense. They're responsible for over half of all attacks so either there's a ridiculous number of underground dogfighting rings out there or at least [U]some[/U] of those owners are full of shit.[/QUOTE]
Guilty until proven innocent is a decency given to humans, and dogs being an intelligent animal I feel like they deserve at least a single iota of similar respect.
So yes the reason matters, because statistically they don't attack for fun it is almost always because of some outside stimuli that resulted in an aggressive response. The amount of attacks are fucking minority cases with pit bulls and like OvB said, the fraction of the population that carries out these killings or attacks is mind bogglingly miniscule, around [B].000385%[/B]. Along with professional dog breeders and even the CDC saying that their temperament is actually [B]better[/B] at a bout 83% than the average of nearly all other good tempered dogs at around 77%
All studies around the breed, be it temperment, number of attacks proportional to population, etc. Show that there are reasons they attack and that despite whether or not you or anyone else likes, they are professionally considered one of the most well mannered breeds available.
[editline]9th December 2015[/editline]
[URL="http://https://www.aspca.org/about-us/aspca-policy-and-position-statements/position-statement-breed-specific-legislation"]http://https://www.aspca.org/about-us/aspca-policy-and-position-statements/position-statement-breed-specific-legislation[/URL]
A source that also talks about and links to other sources I talk about.
The CDC themselves said they were against discriminatory regulation against breeds. What the hell else do you want to show they aren't the "monsters" you detractora claim them to be.
There are a plethora of professionals that show a multitude of reasons why they aren't bad, and why regulation or demonization of more than just pit bulls is unfounded blissful ignorance on the part of those arguing against the breed.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49278617]I've been following your posts and I realize you haven't specifically said that pitbulls aren't dangerous but you have said in no uncertain terms that they do bad things for a "reason." My point? Fuck their reason, if one exists at all. They're aggressive, territorial dogs that tear into people with little provocation; training and environment only go so far when they are hard-wired to fight.[/QUOTE]
Pit bulls aren't "hard wired" to fight. They are more sensitive to unknown or strange stimuli but you can't breed violence or blood lust into an animal. When you read about how pit bulls were bred for dogfighting it was to give them a balance of [B]physical [/B]traits, that being strength, stamina, and agility. And no they don't tear apart people. A very miniscule percentage of the breed attacks people. Many people have already shown you less than 1%. OvB is right. Damn the statistics, all it takes is a few sensationalist stories and you are willing to throw a perfectly good animal under the bus.
btw for the people who only see pits as fighting dogs, they were bred for fighting for a couple decades before dogfighting was banned. Then they were bred as working and companion dogs for over a [B]hundred years[/B].
[QUOTE=Raidyr;49280350] They are more sensitive to unknown or strange stimuli but you can't breed violence or blood lust into an animal.[/QUOTE]
Completely wrong.
See the Russian Silver Fox experiment. They bread aggressiveness out. You can breed it back in as well. It's also been shown that there significant links between physical characteristics and emotional ones, particularly with dogs. The dogs that were bread for docility developed floppy ears, curly tails, and shorter legs all in the span of a few generations.
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;49280972]Completely wrong.
See the Russian Silver Fox experiment. They bread aggressiveness out. You can breed it back in as well. It's also been shown that there significant links between physical characteristics and emotional ones, particularly with dogs. The dogs that were bread for docility developed floppy ears, curly tails, and shorter legs all in the span of a few generations.[/QUOTE]
I wasn't talking about aggressiveness and docility I was talking about violence and bloodlust. This is very specific language being used to demonize an entire breed of dog for the actions of a fraction of a percent.
[QUOTE=ghghop;49278676]Guilty until proven innocent is a decency given to humans, and dogs being an intelligent animal I feel like they deserve at least a single iota of similar respect.[/QUOTE]ahahaha No they don't, they're animals they do animal things they're not guilty or innocent of anything. They are what they are, stop trying to turn them into these noble fantasy creatures.
[QUOTE=ghghop;49278676]So yes the reason matters, because statistically they don't attack for fun it is almost always because of some outside stimuli that resulted in an aggressive response.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=ghghop;49278676]All studies around the breed, be it temperment, number of attacks proportional to population, etc. [B]Show that there are reasons they attack[/B] and that despite whether or not you or anyone else likes, they are professionally considered one of the most well mannered breeds available.[/QUOTE]This breed has a [U]very[/U] well-documented history of mauling human babies, so please, detail the "outside stimuli" that would provoke all of these:
[url]http://www.wcvb.com/news/fall-river-baby-mauled-by-familys-pit-bull/36236216[/url]
[url]http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/new-york-baby-mauled-death-family-pit-bull-article-1.2437241[/url]
[url]http://newsone.com/2053877/pittbull-kills-3-week-old-baby-detroit/[/url]
[url]http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/mom-whose-baby-was-mauled-by-pit-bull-barred-from-seeing-her-children-b99609315z1-339981201.html[/url]
[url]http://www.inquisitr.com/2028126/baby-killed-by-pit-bull-2-month-old-infant-mauled-to-death-by-family-pit-bull/[/url]
I can post a hell of a lot more if you like, I've got plenty of material to work with.
[QUOTE=ghghop;49278676]The CDC themselves said they were against discriminatory regulation against breeds. What the hell else do you want to show they aren't the "monsters" you detractora claim them to be.[/QUOTE]I never said they were monsters and I never said they should be regulated, I stated as much in my post. I am calling people who blithely ignore the potential dangers of having an animal that leads in dog attacks, especially fatal ones, by a large margin complete fucking idiots though.
[QUOTE=ghghop;49278676]There are a plethora of professionals that show a multitude of reasons why they aren't bad, and why regulation or demonization of more than just pit bulls is unfounded blissful ignorance on the part of those arguing against the breed.[/QUOTE]Children's Hospital of Philadelphia's data: [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19644273[/url]
(50.9% goes to American pitbull terriers, runner up is the rottweiler at 8.9%)
Pitbull attacks are more fatal: [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21475022[/url]
A study of dog bites from 1982 to 2006: [url]http://dogbitelaw.com/images/pdf/Dog_Attacks_1982-2006_Clifton.pdf[/url]
(surprise! pitbulls are listed as a breed responsible for a large amount of attacks, once again joined by rottweilers)
[B]TL;DR? Pitbulls are a dangerous breed that require a higher level of competence in their owners. Period. A massive chunk of those vicious pitbull attacks happen because dumb motherfuckers do not understand that dogs are not like children, they are domesticated predatory animals: [U]they[/U] [U][I]kill[/I][/U] [U]to[/U] [U]survive[/U] when they are feral and running wild.[/B]
Baby attacks can be largely attributed to either prey drive, territory issues, or both.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;49281144]I wasn't talking about aggressiveness and docility I was talking about violence and bloodlust. This is very specific language being used to demonize an entire breed of dog for the actions of a fraction of a percent.[/QUOTE]I don't know, 50.9% of all the torn up faces thanks to dog attacks isn't exactly a fraction of a percent.
oh, and that "violence and bloodlust" comes from aggressiveness. A breed can absolutely have aggressive behaviors bred into it, you know, critical fucking features for a type of dog bred specifically for dog fighting.
[editline]9th December 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Pascall;49281629]Baby attacks can be largely attributed to either prey drive, territory issues, or both.[/QUOTE]...
HOW does that make it any better? That actually is a case for destroying pitbulls.
Aggressiveness isn't the same as "having bloodlust". Bloodlust is a humanized terminology that shouldn't be given to an animal that has been bred for certain reactions to certain aggressors. It might seem like a small detail, but it's things like this that encourage people to continue to purchase and breed dangerous animals for nefarious purposes; the very thing you are trying to prevent.
Dogs are not capable of having bloodlust, regardless of what fucked up shit they do. They do not have the mental development to kill for fun. It's either for food, dominance, territory, fear, or any number of other things. But dogs are not humans. Dogs do not kill for pleasure.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49281611]
[B]TL;DR? Pitbulls are a dangerous breed that require a higher level of competence in their owners. Period. A massive chunk of those vicious pitbull attacks happen because dumb motherfuckers do not understand that dogs are not like children, they are domesticated predatory animals: [U]they[/U] [U][I]kill[/I][/U] [U]to[/U] [U]survive[/U] when they are feral and running wild.[/B][/QUOTE]
Again you just can't understand the feedback loop of "Oh I want a dangerous dog" "Oh pitbulls are literally the devils dog and are always violent so get one of those Crack Head Jim" "Yes I will do that thanks Crack head bob." as being a huge part of why the dogs are seen like that.
People who want violent dogs buy the breed with the most violent history further skewing the stats with their actions.
I have lived around pitbulls my whole life. I have seen them behave well even where I have seen other breeds not do so because they were trained well. Yes, they need competent owners because they're more powerful so if they do get out of control it needs a better owner to deal with that and ensure it never happens in the first place. People train these dogs to be aggressive.
I have seen a 16 year old girl competently train a pitbull from infancy to it's full adulthood and her dog is incredibly well behaved. I have seen this with other friends. Pitbulls are mistreated for their reputation. Pitbulls are bought for bad reasons for their reputation. The people who buy them to have loving pets, find out, when they're trained like they should be, they're fucking loving pets.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49281630]
HOW does that make it any better? That actually is a case for destroying pitbulls.[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying it makes it better lol you're so adamant in trying to make my posts seem like I'm excusing behavior when I'm not.
I'm saying that you continue to humanize their behavior which does not help the issue.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49281630]I don't know, 50.9% of all the torn up faces thanks to dog attacks isn't exactly a fraction of a percent.
oh, and that "violence and bloodlust" comes from aggressiveness. A breed can absolutely have aggressive behaviors bred into it, you know, critical fucking features for a type of dog bred specifically for dog fighting.
[editline]9th December 2015[/editline]
...
HOW does that make it any better? That actually is a case for destroying pitbulls.[/QUOTE]
So you're just going to totally ignore OvB's earlier posted statistics that show it is a fraction to fuel an emotional argument?
[QUOTE=Pascall;49281629]Baby attacks can be largely attributed to either prey drive, territory issues, or both.[/QUOTE]
I like to read this post as people being attacked by aggressive babies.
In addition, it's pretty standard responsible dog ownership not to leave any dog around a baby unsupervised so anyone who is not aware of that probably should not have a dog, period tbh.
[editline]9th December 2015[/editline]
I wouldn't leave my maltese-poodle mix around a baby any more than I would leave a pitbull around one.
[QUOTE=Pascall;49281654]Aggressiveness isn't the same as "having bloodlust". Bloodlust is a humanized terminology that shouldn't be given to an animal that has been bred for certain reactions to certain aggressors.[/QUOTE]Which was my point, hence the wacky quotation marks.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49281659]Again you just can't understand the feedback loop of "Oh I want a dangerous dog" "Oh pitbulls are literally the devils dog and are always violent so get one of those Crack Head Jim" "Yes I will do that thanks Crack head bob." as being a huge part of why the dogs are seen like that.[/QUOTE]Three of the stories I posted have nothing to do with crackheads or people seeking deadly dogs for the sake of having a vicious killer. Here's a quote from the one in New York:[quote]The sudden act of deadly aggression is a shock to the grieving family who said Diesel never acted violently toward the children. The family had raised Diesel since he was a puppy.[/quote]
Yeah, sure seems like a household full of drug dealers and bank robbers!
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49281659]I have seen a 16 year old girl competently train a pitbull from infancy to it's full adulthood and her dog is incredibly well behaved. I have seen this with other friends. Pitbulls are mistreated for their reputation. Pitbulls are bought for bad reasons for their reputation. The people who buy them to have loving pets, find out, when they're trained like they should be, they're fucking loving pets.[/QUOTE]Yeah and I grew up around German Shepherds my entire life, and I have a four inch scar on my lower back from when my dog (that I grew up with) tore across the room and sunk his teeth into my side when I was playing video games. Another breed with a history of violence bred for being a guard and protector and his life ended when my grandpa shot him behind the shed. Sweet, kind, and gentle, most loyal and loving dog I knew right up until he snapped.
[QUOTE=Pascall;49281662]I'm not saying it makes it better lol you're so adamant in trying to make my posts seem like I'm excusing behavior when I'm not.
I'm saying that you continue to humanize their behavior which does not help the issue.[/QUOTE]I'm not humanizing their behavior, they're [B]DOGS[/B] they're doing what they're bred to do.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49281665]So you're just going to totally ignore OvB's earlier posted statistics that show it is a fraction to fuel an emotional argument?[/QUOTE]What, that serious dog attacks in general are a non-issue statistically? No, of course not, which is why I [B]clearly stated[/B] I am not in favor of licenses or bans or mass-killing all the pitbulls.
[editline]9th December 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Pascall;49281718]In addition, it's pretty standard responsible dog ownership not to leave any dog around a baby unsupervised so anyone who is not aware of that probably should not have a dog, period tbh.
[editline]9th December 2015[/editline]
I wouldn't leave my maltese-poodle mix around a baby any more than I would leave a pitbull around one.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49278617]Actually? I wouldn't leave a small child alone with any dog. Period. I don't trust dogs. I like dogs, I own dogs, but in the back of my head I know no matter how much I love and care for them there is always a chance something bad could happen.[/QUOTE]
So what do you want to happen here.
You call people idiots for owning pitbulls. Okay. That's their call then. There are people out there who own poisonous snakes too. It's gonna happen. Humans, as a species, are prone to taking risks when it comes to animals that are more dangerous than we are. It's been happening forever. Ultimately, I don't understand what your argument is beyond "they're all idiots" and your pretty fervent emotional response to the discussion as a whole.
[editline]9th December 2015[/editline]
Personally, I'd like to see responsible breeders begin to start introducing calmer, more docile individuals into the blood lines - something similar is happening to the Pug in which they are attempting to breed them with longer snouts to avoid brachycephaly and promote breed health in general - in order to lessen the stigma as much as possible.
But to be perfectly fair, there will always be people who wanna breed violent dogs for violent purposes and perfectly innocent people end up as victims as a result.
The less we keep raising the argument that they're all monsters, or evil, or they all deserve to die, and more pushing for education and urging RESPONSIBLE breeders to do their part, the better the future looks for these breeds of dogs.
But nah some people like to just say "yeah I got attacked by a dog once he bit me" as an attempt to convince someone that it can only be the dog's fault. Which sets us backwards. And only continues the cycle.
It's gotta be broken somewhere.
So then what are you actually suggesting about the problem because all it seems to be is that you're doing what is commonly done and bagging emotional things into an argument that needs to be kept logical.
What is your solution?
You know what my solution is?
Shut down ALL puppy mills. EVERY. ONE. Every puppy mill nation wide needs to be disposed of. Dogs need to be sold by breeders who love the dogs, and breed the dogs themselves as if they were a member of the family, and who don't sell the dogs to people they don't personally want to have the dogs. This is how I buy every dog I ever get. From breeders who do this and love doing it. More people need to do that to make up the supply and demand, but removing puppy mills helps do a few things.
1) it gets rid of the mass ease of getting a living animal to mistreat
2) it provides a level of background check from the seller, as in my experience, they want to know a lot about you before giving you a puppy they love deeply themselves.
3) You can have more effective breeders managing to reduce some of the attitude and aggression issues some breeds display.
Pitbulls are like any other large breed. They contain innate risk and danger. If you own one and don't respect that, that's YOUR fault. The damage it does is YOUR fault. You need to respect that it's a potentially dangerous animal even if it's a loving docile pet that never shows signs of aggression. You're right, some times dogs do just snap, there are reasons behind that and I firmly believe there's a reason the dog behaves in the manner it does even when it snaps. That doesn't make it a risk you can't manage, an animal you can't train.
I don't see you actually offering any solution, you say you're not for licences or bans or mass killings but what do you want as you seem to be a very, very against anyone owning a dog like this based on an emotional gut feeling.
Oh yeah fuck puppy mills too. Lots of dogs from there are already fucked up, socially and developmentally which ends up putting a possibly dangerous dog into the hands of innocent people.
Also give more responsibility to shelters for rehabilitating dogs. Some of them just like to throw aggressive dogs at people in an attempt to get rid of them.
[QUOTE=Pascall;49281856]So what do you want to happen here.
You call people idiots for owning pitbulls. Okay.[/QUOTE][B][U]No.[/U][/B] I'm calling idiots doing idiotic things idiots; owning a pitbull is not like owning a gecko it can tear your fucking baby's face off because it gets some bug up it's ass. People who understand that I have no problem with, they're not even remotely an issue.
It's not hard to figure out honestly. Pretending like a pitbull is some magic fluffy love cloud that can do no wrong is actively enabling the type of dumb son of a bitch who gets a kid killed through their negligence.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49281897][B][U]No.[/U][/B] I'm calling idiots doing idiotic things idiots; owning a pitbull is not like owning a gecko it can tear your fucking baby's face off because it gets some bug up it's ass. People who understand that I have no problem with, they're not even remotely an issue.
It's not hard to figure out honestly. Pretending like a pitbull is some magic fluffy love cloud that can do no wrong is actively enabling the type of dumb son of a bitch who gets a kid killed through their negligence.[/QUOTE]
But painting them as monsters is part of the fucking problem dude. You paint them as monster, the lovers of pitbulls have to respond with that they're loving pets. You get a complete polarization of reality and the truth is, they are loving pets that are dangerous when mishandled like any high risk object in society which most of us deal with on a very regular basis.
Okay so you're making an argument against who???????
Neither of us are saying that owning a pitbull doesn't require responsibility and caution.
You're going in circles trying to act like we're both disagreeing with you when we're not.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49281903]But painting them as monsters is part of the fucking problem dude. You paint them as monster, the lovers of pitbulls have to respond with that they're loving pets. You get a complete polarization of reality and the truth is, they are loving pets that are dangerous when mishandled like any high risk object in society which most of us deal with on a very regular basis.[/QUOTE]I don't really care though, that's what you're not getting. Sure, if somebody wants to say my caution is "painting them as monsters" then fine, whatever, I guess they're monsters. I see them as a dog breed that's doing what it's bred to do, period, but that doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day if I see one near my animals I will shoot to kill. I'm not going to weigh the morality of it, I'm not going to risk giving that dog a single second to up and decide it's going to start ripping throats out. Actually, regarding that:
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49281881]What is your solution?[/QUOTE]Start holding people accountable and start charging shitheads who get their baby killed with negligent homicide. Shut down puppy mills because they're just bad in general.
Oh, and the moment your dangerous dog leaves your property and does damage it should be on you 100% no questions asked. Treat any dog-related crime with the same attitude that are given to farm-related dog incidents: you are responsible for all damages incurred by your dog, and the farmer absolutely will blast your precious pooch into the next world.
[editline]9th December 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Pascall;49281906]You're going in circles trying to act like we're both disagreeing with you when we're not.[/QUOTE]Hey, I was responding to what you two were saying, I went into this today replying to ghghop.
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