• Trump to cops: 'Don't be too nice'
    90 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Skanic;52518953]You have reached Alex Jones levels if you think Russia hacked anything its just excuses for why they lost, also there are several evidence that the Russia story is fake. And before you cry out that Tim Pool is right wing or alt right, [B]I have to burst your bubble and tell you that he is more left leaning and is more of a centrist or libertarian left. [/B] I do agree that suspects should be treated with respect and dignity.[/QUOTE] Hi, I'm a completely 100% legitimately not lying about being a fully alt right trump supporting user here. I'm NOT LYING ABOUT THAT, I'd like to point out. Because I sad that, you have to know its true, so you better believe what I say or else. project Veritas is a load of horse shit [url]https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/project-veritas/[/url] [QUOTE]These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward [B]conservative [/B]causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may utilize strong loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes), publish misleading reports and omit reporting of information that may damage [B]conservative [/B]causes. Some sources in this category may be untrustworthy. [B]See all Right Bias sources.[/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Harbie;52518997]Yeah when someone cites a video from James O'Keefe its probably a good idea not to take what he says seriously. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_O'Keefe[/url][/QUOTE] Pretty sure Skanic has some weird James O'Keefe fetish or something, every time they've tried to defend Trump against the Russian collusion accusations it's been a ~~Project Veritas~~ shitshow that's "informed them of the truth". Fuck O'Keefe, dudes a massive fraud and doesn't remotely have an interest in the truth, just in whatever the guys backing him want him to push.
[QUOTE=Skanic;52518953] And before you cry out that Tim Pool is right wing or alt right, I have to burst your bubble and tell you that he is more left leaning and is more of a centrist or libertarian left. I do agree that suspects should be treated with respect and dignity.[/QUOTE] Oh look it's the good old [i]"ACKTUHLEY I'm not even alt right, It's just coincidence that I consistently spout right-wing viewpoints, bag incessantly on left wing bogeymen, and defend anything done by a right wing politician, you can totes trust me"[/i] trick. Also lmao I'm so glad these Youtube videos from a proven fraud were around so that I could become more informed!! I wouldn't want to fall for the info-wars tier bullshit being put out by the fucking [i] FBI and CIA[/i].
[QUOTE=Skanic;52518953]You have reached Alex Jones levels if you think Russia hacked anything its just excuses for why they lost, also there are several evidence that the Russia story is fake. [/QUOTE] Reaching Alex Jones levels is actually calling the Russian cyberattacks fake news. [editline]29th July 2017[/editline] Even if those videos are legitimate they prove literally nothing. Its the producer of CNN Health giving his laymans opinion that is no more informed than any of ours. "It could be mostly bullshit" is being turned into "CNN ADMITS RUSSIAN STORY IS FAKE NEWS" which is just dishonest.
[QUOTE=fulgrim;52519220]Oh look it's the good old [i]"ACKTUHLEY I'm not even alt right, It's just coincidence that I consistently spout right-wing viewpoints, bag incessantly on left wing bogeymen, and defend anything done by a right wing politician, you can totes trust me"[/i] trick. Also lmao I'm so glad these Youtube videos from a proven fraud were around so that I could become more informed!! I wouldn't want to fall for the info-wars tier bullshit being put out by the fucking [i] FBI and CIA[/i].[/QUOTE] Why is everything that opposes alt right? I am centre right , Libertarian, I guess that makes me alt right. Where did I defend what Trump did? I said that I disagree with his statement about suspects. They should be handle with respect and dignity innocent until proven guilty. Snopes is biased asf too you know. But I guess anything that criticises something on the left is is Alt right. Man and Sargon is so far right, He went to a VidCon and just sat in the row and gets called Garbage Human by Anita. Or how about Berkeley Ditching Richard Dawkins for Criticizing Islam—But NOT Christianity?
If the russia scandal is fake news why is there a special counsel investigating trump for the russian interference in the 2016 election
[QUOTE=Skanic;52519271]Why is everything that opposes alt right? I am centre right , Libertarian, I guess that makes me alt right. Where did I defend what Trump did? I said that I disagree with his statement about suspects. They should be handle with respect and dignity innocent until proven guilty. Snopes is biased asf too you know. But I guess anything that criticises something on the left is is Alt right. Man and Sargon is so far right, He went to a VidCon and just sat in the row and gets called Garbage Human by Anita. Or how about Berkeley Ditching Richard Dawkins for Criticizing Islam—But NOT Christianity?[/QUOTE] How many farmers did you employ to bring in all that straw? No one said Sargon is 'so far right'. I said he was a man of no conviction or coherent views, who knows next to nothing about politics. He's good at cooking up a big intellectual sounding word salad that panders to wherever the money is at the time. 90% of his arguments fall apart under any scrutiny and when he's out of his depth in a discussion he responds by being sarcastic, patronising and attacking character because he has nothing to say.
[QUOTE=Skanic;52519271]Man and Sargon is so far right, He went to a VidCon and just sat in the row and gets called Garbage Human by Anita.[/QUOTE] Is this real? Are you trying to claim that Sargon's politics are affected by the fact that he attended a convention and got verbally abused by a panelist? Well, I guess George W. Bush is a liberal because that Arabic dude threw his shoes at him??? I think you may not be as good at arguing as you think you are, because all you've done here is waffle and post alt-right propaganda and try and pretend it's honey.
[QUOTE=Skanic;52519271]Snopes is biased asf too you know.[/QUOTE] What?
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;52518021]Never. Have you not figured this out by now? There is [U]nothing[/U] that he can do or say that his core supporters will not rationalize and accept.[/QUOTE] I know it's easy to write your opponents off as irrational so you don't have to deal with them, but you're really expressing your own biases here by refusing to accept that people actually agree with this position. Increased scrutiny on the police because of sensitivity over an old and very american racialized class issue, which has come in recent years because the left is winning the culture war, is not welcomed by many people and is documented to reduce the effectiveness of police. Further, the military has been polled on the direction it's taking, and after only a quarter approved of it, the #2 issue cited (after budget cuts) was the politicization of their jobs, political correctness, and becoming 'soft' to avoid mass media scrutiny, which is driven by fear of supplying a recently popularized trend of injustice stories, a fear which signals the changing balance of power of cultural - political battles. This has fueled a gap not only between progressive cultural and political elites and the average person, but also between institutions, companies, etc. and the people who work within them. Polls show [url=http://www.forbes.com/sites/bowmanmarsico/2017/06/05/polls-on-political-correctness/]50-70% [/url] consider political correctness a serious issue depending on wording. Many also take serious issue with globalization. Yet, a more liberal part of the elite and big insitutions they fight cultural battles in and perform political auditing on continue on their own way regardless of popular opinions, they exist together in a sort of class based bubble as inequality worsens, polarization drives society apart, the internet permits homogeneity of opinions, and globalization is 'unrelatable'. Dr Jordan Peterson explains why nationalism is rising and more 'relatable': [video]https://youtu.be/IpXVoSZyHXM[/video] So the issue isn't your opponents are irrationally following a strongman and the next hitler, this is more of the arrogance I was talking about (and mirrors something like the attitude towards the populist Caesar and the roman plebs). The issue is the left is victorian in its arrogance. It holds cultural and political sway over the heights of society and has a sense of right side of history derived from globalization and where the money is going (open, consumerist societies and free flow of goods and labor). It's almost as if the bicoastal, urban liberal upper classes speak a different language than the average working class person. In that light, people stubbornly hold on to figures like trump as a man they propelled to the top to reign in the unpopular excesses. [B]This is because despite being egalitarians that apologize for western history, the class character of the left is such that it is an expression of a very American kind of inequality[/b]. There is an alignment between the left and money that is intensely resented because one is part of a culture war and the other part of a class war as global market corrections (of the gap between first and third world) mean the middle class shrinks, economic prospects for the young darken, and the native working class feels marginalized by the concept of globalization (which even Trudeau admitted to, once the right wing populists seized upon this demographic in the form of brexit and trump). This is why f.e. the Russia thing won't change anything for a significant plurality of the country, they don't care. They see treason, as you do, but not in a poor speaker of a president, but a far more powerful wealthy, socially trendy elite. [Url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/05/04/nationalists-are-losing-ground-in-the-white-house-thank-wealthy-elites/]The balance of power between to the two is recognized by WaPo in this piece.[/url]
[QUOTE=Conscript;52519392]Increased scrutiny on the police because of sensitivity over an old and very american racialized class issue, which has come in recent years because the left is winning the culture war, is not welcomed by many people and is documented to reduce the effectiveness of police.[/QUOTE] When you have no-knock drug raids by SWAT teams on [I]the wrong residential home[/I] in the middle of the night and flashbangs are being thrown into fucking baby cribs, [B]there is a justified reason for increased police scrutiny that has nothing to do with cultural warfare.[/B] Unwelcome my ass, inceased scrutiny is "unwelcome" from the people it's least needed by. That's a sacrifice I'm willing to fucking force others to make if it means [I]cops don't get to cover up fatal mistakes[/I]. What decreases police effectiveness more? Increased bureaucracy or a civilian population that is traumatized and hostile to police intervention and will refuse to cooperate with police inquiries for fear of collective retribution or betrayal. And if you say that can't happen, drive down to Ferguson and try telling them your views.
[QUOTE=Conscript;52519392]I know it's easy to write your opponents off as irrational so you don't have to deal with them, but you're really expressing your own biases here by refusing to accept that people actually agree with this position. Increased scrutiny on the police because of sensitivity over an old and very american racialized class issue, which has come in recent years because the left is winning the culture war, is not welcomed by many people and is documented to reduce the effectiveness of police. Further, the military has been polled on the direction it's taking, and after only a quarter approved of it, the #2 issue cited (after budget cuts) was the politicization of their jobs, political correctness, and becoming 'soft' to avoid mass media scrutiny, which is driven by fear of supplying a recently popularized trend of injustice stories, a fear which signals the changing balance of power of cultural - political battles. This has fueled a gap not only between progressive cultural and political elites and the average person, but also between institutions, companies, etc. and the people who work within them. Polls show [URL="http://www.forbes.com/sites/bowmanmarsico/2017/06/05/polls-on-political-correctness/"]50-70% [/URL] consider political correctness a serious issue depending on wording. Many also take serious issue with globalization. Yet, a more liberal part of the elite and big insitutions they fight cultural battles in and perform political auditing on continue on their own way regardless of popular opinions, they exist together in a sort of class based bubble as inequality worsens, polarization drives society apart, the internet permits homogeneity of opinions, and globalization is 'unrelatable'. Dr Jordan Peterson explains why nationalism is rising and more 'relatable': [video]https://youtu.be/IpXVoSZyHXM[/video] [/QUOTE] Interesting note on the Police I guess, you really think they need less accountability? Need more force? I can tell you our Police Force is magnitudes softer than yours even after this tone down and works great. Dr Peterson is a Clinical Psychologist way in over his head. His Politics are based on a total misunderstanding of postmodernism and a lovely Marxist strawman. Both are open to criticism but to base your entire outlook on something you don't understand means you can't make the incredible conclusions he does because your argument's foundations don't hold up. He's good at self help though.
[QUOTE]The issue is the left is victorian in its arrogance. It holds cultural and political sway over the heights of society and has a sense of right side of history derived from globalization and where the money is going[/QUOTE] Can't you say the exact same thing about the right in America (and many other countries) in that they have cultural and political sway over the heights of society because you know [B][I]TRUMP IS A FUCKING BILLIONAIRE WHO'S MADE A TON OF MONEY OFF GLOBALISATION AND ITS INTO COMPANIES LIKE HIS WHERE THE MONEY IS GOING?[/I][/B] Trump's no fucking friend of any fucking working class person in any fucking country. End. Fucking. Of. He's a billionaire establishment person who is only interested in making money and refuses to disassociate himself with his businesses. It is [B]bollocks[/B] to claim otherwise. And if you don't think the American right is arrogant, oh boy, outside looking in, you only need to look at Chris Christie to find that proven true. Or well, many of the Trump supporters here. Remember the lad who after saying Trump was "better for LGBT than Clinton" called another member a "gender confused twat"? Yeah, I fuckin' remember. Or all the shit that people's worries about Trump's policies on groups like women or racial minorities or LGBT, etc. etc. were "memes" and "based completely on media manipulation?" Do I even need to point out what's happened in the last few months to show those [B]fears were entirely correct?[/B] EDIT: this whole shit of an American cultural war that "liberals" are winning is hilarious when the Republican Party in America constantly and consistently seeks to remove LGBT rights. They don't want a "culture" war? [B]Start treating people like god-damn, fucking, people.[/B] ... sigh this is just a complete rant. But I've had it. My fears for what would happen to my American friends are edging closer and closer to being realised. While luckily this type of bullshit isn't being pushed onto us in Ireland, I still have a great anxiety about the whole thing and it makes me angry that he's getting away with this stuff in the 21st century.
The Suffolk County Police Department (the dudes in the background laughing and clapping as the President talks about roughing up criminals) has been under investigation in the past for discriminating against Latinos, and who's former police chief was sent to prison for beating a suspect. On the plus side, they are directly contradicting the President on Twitter [media]https://twitter.com/SCPDHq/status/891038888315244544[/media]
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;52519459]Do I even need to point out what's happened in the last few months to show those [B]fears were entirely correct?[/B][/QUOTE] It didn't even takes months, that's probably the worst part. It was weeks at most. Within hours of being inaugurated Trump went straight to the Executive Orders for some of his worst "policy" ideas. Either knowing fully well that they wouldn't stand a chance in the Senate and House, or because he genuinely thought that's how the presidency worked. He proved every fear about him correctly almost instantly, and has only be reaffirming those fears on a daily basis since. He's still a vulgar manchild with absolutely no idea what he is doing, he's appointing friends and business partners to every position he damn well can and he clearly hasn't actually given up control of his own companies since, giving them to your family is hardly enough to break a conflict of interest in the future. With these recent talks he's given to the Boy Scouts and these Cops, I'm not entirely sure he should ever really be allowed to speak publicly again. I'm almost embarrassed for the US at this point.
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;52518051]The cheering and whistling at that comment is really disturbing. It's nothing but cruelty, and completely pointless... what the fuck.[/QUOTE] Police in many parts of the States are little better than a street gang.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;52519477]With these recent talks he's given to the Boy Scouts and these Cops, I'm not entirely sure he should ever really be allowed to speak publicly again. I'm almost embarrassed for the US at this point.[/QUOTE] I really disliked the fascist talk when Trump was first elected, iirc. I did think he was slightly authoritarian and was certainly xenophobic, but not fascist. I also didn't believe the Russian collusion thing was anything more than Russia trolling in support without direct collusion (or something to that effect). Now? Trump is authoritarian and practically fascist. If he's not working towards it, he'd gleefully take any opportunity to increase his power to that of a dictator's. It's clear to me he's fully racist and completely anti-LGBT and his Republican allies will push and enable those policies and beliefs. And it's clear there has been some level of collusion between Russia and the Trump campaign. There are way, way too many links. They are not innocent. He's guilty of [I]something.[/I]
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;52518058]Not surprised, but still disgusted. This is what I've been guessing for months now. Once the evidence becomes impossible to deny, Trump's extremists will switch tracks from claiming it's all "fake news," to arguing that collusion was a justified necessity, and that we should be [I]thanking[/I] Trump for shattering the integrity of our entire electoral process, because it saved us from that [B]BENGHAZI[/B] witch, Hillary. Thanks for the poll.[/QUOTE] Why in every trump thread somebody gotta go "hillary haha" or "lol email!" sarcastic bullshit. Hillary should be locked up for being crooked. She is literally a sociopath as well if you read her emails. She is just a shit politican over all. The poster child of the fake smiling lairs in the democratic party. Trump should also be locked up because he may have literally sold us out to russia. but for some reason people act like it cant be both? They are both trash, most of congress are scumbags and needs to get kicked out of office. Trumps entire administration should be kicked out as well.
[QUOTE=Sky King;52519506]Why in every trump thread somebody gotta go "hillary haha" or "lol email!" sarcastic bullshit. Hillary should be locked up for being crooked. She is literally a sociopath as well if you read her emails. She is just a shit politican over all. The poster child of the fake smiling lairs in the democratic party. Trump should also be locked up because he may have literally sold us out to russia. but for some reason people act like it cant be both? They are both trash, most of congress are scumbags and needs to get kicked out of office. Trumps entire administration should be kicked out as well.[/QUOTE] Is there any evidence of Hillary's crookedness?
[QUOTE=Sky King;52519506]Hillary should be locked up for being crooked. [B]She is literally a sociopath[/B] as well if you read her emails. She is just a shit politican over all. The poster child of the fake smiling lairs in the democratic party.[/QUOTE] Most politicians are, that's not a crime either. You first of all need to give us a reason to "LOCK HER UPP!!!!!!!!1!". Thus far, no investigation has actually pushed for any kind of punishment. Unless you have some evidence they do not? People bring her up sarcastically because Trump supporters will [I]always[/I] bring her up as a deflection whenever anybody "threatens" their God Emperor. And I dunno about you, but mocking idiots is a fun past time.
[QUOTE=Sky King;52519506]Why in every trump thread somebody gotta go "hillary haha" or "lol email!" sarcastic bullshit. Hillary should be locked up for being crooked. She is literally a sociopath as well if you read her emails. She is just a shit politican over all. The poster child of the fake smiling lairs in the democratic party. Trump should also be locked up because he may have literally sold us out to russia. but for some reason people act like it cant be both? They are both trash, most of congress are scumbags and needs to get kicked out of office. Trumps entire administration should be kicked out as well.[/QUOTE] Because Hillary's incompetence has absolutely zero bearing on anything that this current administration has done and as such is a cheap cop out and an attempt to divert blame whenever a Trump supporter can't find anything else to defend him with. Criticize Hillary all you want but it shouldn't have anything to do with Trump.
[QUOTE=Pascall;52519536] Criticize Hillary all you want but it shouldn't have anything to do with Trump.[/QUOTE] That was the point I was trying to make.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;52519523]Most politicians are, that's not a crime either.[/QUOTE] (Note, this isn't aimed at you in particular, this is aimed at everyone in general). Things like this upset me because while I am certainly no defender of most politicians and believe in some ways they're all a little corrupt - there's no evidence that most politicians have mental illnesses or in some way not ordinary people. They most definitely are. Read any political memoir or look into the history of any political figure. In particular, I think there's a lot to learn from the rise and fall of one of Ireland's greatest politicians, Charles Stewart Parnell. This dehumanisation of politicians leads to all sorts of shitty and apathetic beliefs like "they're all the same!" or that it's not worth fighting for anything in politics. I wouldn't be surprised if beliefs like that play a part in events like Jo Cox's murder, for example. While I have certainly ranted against quite a number of politicians and hate quite a lot of them... they are ultimately people, and even with ones I disagree heavily with (but can still respect their stance on), I don't go about believing they're mentally ill or horrible people in real life. Beliefs like that - they undermine democracy, and I think they might be part of the reason some will give dangerous people like Trump a chance - because they "appear" more human.
The gang shit is p fucking bad out here on LI, but that doesnt make it ok to tell cops to let power get to their head [editline]29th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Raidyr;52519460]The Suffolk County Police Department (the dudes in the background laughing and clapping as the President talks about roughing up criminals) has been under investigation in the past for discriminating against Latinos, and who's former police chief was sent to prison for beating a suspect. On the plus side, they are directly contradicting the President on Twitter [media]https://twitter.com/SCPDHq/status/891038888315244544[/media][/QUOTE] Really? Didnt even know that about my own PD... but i guess i just never heard about it
[QUOTE=Conscript;52519392]I know it's easy to write your opponents off as irrational so you don't have to deal with them, but you're really expressing your own biases here by refusing to accept that people actually agree with this position. Increased scrutiny on the police because of sensitivity over an old and very american racialized class issue, which has come in recent years because the left is winning the culture war, is not welcomed by many people and is documented to reduce the effectiveness of police. Further, the military has been polled on the direction it's taking, and after only a quarter approved of it, the #2 issue cited (after budget cuts) was the politicization of their jobs, political correctness, and becoming 'soft' to avoid mass media scrutiny, which is driven by fear of supplying a recently popularized trend of injustice stories, a fear which signals the changing balance of power of cultural - political battles. This has fueled a gap not only between progressive cultural and political elites and the average person, but also between institutions, companies, etc. and the people who work within them. Polls show [url=http://www.forbes.com/sites/bowmanmarsico/2017/06/05/polls-on-political-correctness/]50-70% [/url] consider political correctness a serious issue depending on wording. Many also take serious issue with globalization. Yet, a more liberal part of the elite and big insitutions they fight cultural battles in and perform political auditing on continue on their own way regardless of popular opinions, they exist together in a sort of class based bubble as inequality worsens, polarization drives society apart, the internet permits homogeneity of opinions, and globalization is 'unrelatable'. Dr Jordan Peterson explains why nationalism is rising and more 'relatable': [video]https://youtu.be/IpXVoSZyHXM[/video] So the issue isn't your opponents are irrationally following a strongman and the next hitler, this is more of the arrogance I was talking about (and mirrors something like the attitude towards the populist Caesar and the roman plebs). The issue is the left is victorian in its arrogance. It holds cultural and political sway over the heights of society and has a sense of right side of history derived from globalization and where the money is going (open, consumerist societies and free flow of goods and labor). It's almost as if the bicoastal, urban liberal upper classes speak a different language than the average working class person. In that light, people stubbornly hold on to figures like trump as a man they propelled to the top to reign in the unpopular excesses. [B]This is because despite being egalitarians that apologize for western history, the class character of the left is such that it is an expression of a very American kind of inequality[/b]. There is an alignment between the left and money that is intensely resented because one is part of a culture war and the other part of a class war as global market corrections (of the gap between first and third world) mean the middle class shrinks, economic prospects for the young darken, and the native working class feels marginalized by the concept of globalization (which even Trudeau admitted to, once the right wing populists seized upon this demographic in the form of brexit and trump). This is why f.e. the Russia thing won't change anything for a significant plurality of the country, they don't care. They see treason, as you do, but not in a poor speaker of a president, but a far more powerful wealthy, socially trendy elite. [Url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/05/04/nationalists-are-losing-ground-in-the-white-house-thank-wealthy-elites/]The balance of power between to the two is recognized by WaPo in this piece.[/url][/QUOTE] Are you seriously saying the police shouldn't have accountability because it makes their job harder Are you really fucking serious
-oh lordy there was a whole page i missed, sniperino-
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;52519414]When you have no-knock drug raids by SWAT teams on [I]the wrong residential home[/I] in the middle of the night and flashbangs are being thrown into fucking baby cribs, [B]there is a justified reason for increased police scrutiny that has nothing to do with cultural warfare.[/B] Unwelcome my ass, inceased scrutiny is "unwelcome" from the people it's least needed by. That's a sacrifice I'm willing to fucking force others to make if it means [I]cops don't get to cover up fatal mistakes[/I]. What decreases police effectiveness more? Increased bureaucracy or a civilian population that is traumatized and hostile to police intervention and will refuse to cooperate with police inquiries for fear of collective retribution or betrayal. And if you say that can't happen, drive down to Ferguson and try telling them your views.[/QUOTE] That anecdote is sad, but I don't know how it's an argument. The state should regulate, but still be behind its police so its officers can have the confidence knowing they can deal with a rather crime ridden first world country without being thrown under the bus, just to save the career of some bureaucrat from the post-colonial victim narrative and anti-American/anti-Western sentiment. That is cultural warfare. It's hard to imagine curbing police brutality through overregulation out of left wing political motivations, disproportionately supported by left wing types who live nowhere near problematic neigbhorhoods, saves us as much social harm as supporting them when they're dealing with the following: [b]Murder rate:[/b] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate[/url] The US has a murder rate of 4.9 per 100,000. In comparison to other developed countries, Japan has .4. Germany has .8, Australia 1, France 1.1, and Britain ([url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-violent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html]europe's violent crime problem child[/url]) has 1.2. [b]World's most dangerous cities:[/b] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_murder_rate[/url] America is fourth in representation for number of cities in the top 50. There are no asian or european cities on the list. [b]Rape, drugs, others:[/b] America has an unusual rate of rape for a western country: [url]http://www.indexmundi.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/un-police-reported-rape.jpg[/url] America has almost half the world's drug market in value [url]https://www.unodc.org/pdf/WDR_2005/volume_1_chap2.pdf[/url] America's safety index is 20-25% lower than much of Europe's: [url]https://www.numbeo.com/crime/gmaps_rankings_country.jsp?indexToShow=safety&title=2017-mid[/url] As for the rest of your post, I don't know what you mean about fear of police retribution or betrayal reducing civilian cooperation and police effectiveness. Anti-snitching culture is far more of an issue than that. Consider this: [url]https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20160204/loop/chicago-police-detectives-solved-just-26-percent-of-472-homicides-2015[/url] [quote] In 2015, the percentage of murders solved by Chicago Police tumbled to a near-record low, and gunmen who shot and wounded people escaped charges 94 percent of the time, a DNAinfo Chicago analysis of police data shows.[/quote] [url]http://www.gallup.com/poll/192701/confidence-police-recovers-last-year-low.aspx[/url] [quote]At this point, 25% of Americans say they have a great deal of confidence in the police, 31% quite a lot, 29% "some," 13% "very little" and 1% "none." The combined 14% who have very little or no confidence in the police is down from 18% last year, which was the highest negative confidence reading in Gallup's history of rating the police.[/quote] 94% of gunmen escape charges versus 18% distrust and 50-55% confidence in police when distrust was at its highest in 2016. Doesn't add up. On the other hand, there's even a name for the social effect of cultural conflict affect political support for police. It's called the Ferguson effect. [url]https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/01/11/ferguson-effect-study-72-us-cops-reluctant-make-stops/96446504/[/url] [quote]More than three-quarters of U.S. law enforcement officers say they are reluctant to use force when necessary, and nearly as many — 72% — say they or their colleagues are more reluctant to stop and question people who seem suspicious as a result of increased scrutiny of police, according to a new study published Wednesday by the Pew Research Center.[/quote] With such an overwhelming majority of officers fearing the atmosphere of retribution, and with a cop more likely to be killed than to kill (in 2016, 963 killed by police versus 135 officers killed, which means assuming all actual 963 were black males police killed .00004% of the black male population [21.5 million] whereas police lost .00018% of sworn officers [750k] [url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2017/]source[/url] [url=http://www.cbsnews.com/news/police-killed-line-of-duty-increase-2016/]source #2[/url]), it's obvious it makes more sense to support police if your motivations are reduced social harm. Not so much if your motivations are political in nature. [QUOTE=BlackMageMari;52519459]Can't you say the exact same thing about the right in America (and many other countries) in that they have cultural and political sway over the heights of society because you know[/quote] You can, but then, most trump supporters don't like neocons and other conservatives who just want to hold onto their money. In other countries, nationalists can be pretty socialistic when it comes to economics. [quote][B][I]TRUMP IS A FUCKING BILLIONAIRE WHO'S MADE A TON OF MONEY OFF GLOBALISATION AND ITS INTO COMPANIES LIKE HIS WHERE THE MONEY IS GOING?[/I][/B][/quote] Trump's value has fallen 200 million and he is not making money off this. Like a lot of rich people, trump got into politics as a philanthropist. However, he's doing it quite differently than others. That is, instead of being something like, say, a former politician going around giving paid speeches about the virtues of green energy to industrial giants and how its in their interests, he's actively threatening those interests. He's a nationalist with some strong sympathies for the American worker, and is essentially a renegade member of his class. [quote]Trump's no fucking friend of any fucking working class person in any fucking country. End. Fucking. Of. He's a billionaire establishment person who is only interested in making money and refuses to disassociate himself with his businesses. It is [B]bollocks[/B] to claim otherwise.[/quote] He's not much of a friend, but he says things that the working class is thinking, and it's scaring those in power into thinking a Hitler and the brownshirts are coming for them. The hysteria is actually pretty amusing, but more importantly also shifting the overton window. By bringing up nazism of all things when confronted with the most basic versions of civic nationalism and pandering to the economic woes of the middle and working classes, you get people to think you really don't want them talking about the latter. So they do it out of spite. [quote]And if you don't think the American right is arrogant, oh boy, outside looking in, you only need to look at Chris Christie to find that proven true.[/quote] He's my governor. I go to the beach his fat ass closed for himself. [quote]Or well, many of the Trump supporters here. Remember the lad who after saying Trump was "better for LGBT than Clinton" called another member a "gender confused twat"? Yeah, I fuckin' remember. Or all the shit that people's worries about Trump's policies on groups like women or racial minorities or LGBT, etc. etc. were "memes" and "based completely on media manipulation?"[/quote] The LGBT thing was stupid, I don't know why people believed that about him. But let's be serious, there are no trump supporters here. FP was always on the liberal side, but american polarization has turned it into an echo chamber. [quote]EDIT: this whole shit of an American cultural war that "liberals" are winning is hilarious when the Republican Party in America constantly and consistently seeks to remove LGBT rights. They don't want a "culture" war? [B]Start treating people like god-damn, fucking, people.[/B][/quote] American culture wars are older than today's LGBT rights movement. Today, it's also much bigger than that, it's about a kind of identity politics tribalism that undermines Western liberalism and turns democratic representation into a zero-sum game of in groups. It's the post-colonial, anti-Western left wing narratives that completely sabotages the middle class dream (you can never achieve it because of the white supremacist capitalist patriarchy), the American civic identity (it's a false consciousness that makes you submit to the white supremacist capitalist patriarchy), and liberal individualism (we can analyze society on the basis of class, race, and sex and arrive at the conclusion we live in a white supremacist capitalist patriarchy and not a democracy of free individuals). Thus Sargon of Akkad. The changing face and demographic of american society will significantly harm the health of liberal-democracy if we don't convince the new lot that though there are classes they are free and there is social mobility, though there are 'races' and 'genders' they are individuals, and together this means people have responsibility and choice for their lot in life. Then we can tell them they don't need to, in tribal fashion, bind together against the ubiquitous property-owning white male and then have them take that logic to its conclusion and start hating the Republic. [QUOTE=Itachi_Crow;52519619]Are you seriously saying the police shouldn't have accountability because it makes their job harder Are you really fucking serious[/QUOTE] Strawman.
[QUOTE]You can, but then, most trump supporters don't like neocons and other conservatives who just want to hold onto their money. In other countries, nationalists can be pretty socialistic when it comes to economics.[/QUOTE] Which nationalists in which country? Most nationalists I've heard of are extremely conservative and not very socialist. In the slightest. Also, they have a strange way of saying they don't like neocons or other conservatives considering they vote for Republicans... and support a conservative that just wants to hold onto his money. [QUOTE][B]Trump's value has fallen 200 million and he is not making money off this.[/B][/quote] He literally goes to his golf club every week along with other politicians. He's making money off this no doubt. Where did you see him losing money from this?[/quote] [quote]Like a lot of rich people, trump got into politics as a philanthropist. However, he's doing it quite differently than others. That is, instead of being something like, say, [B]a former politician going around giving paid speeches about the virtues of green energy to industrial giants and how its in their interests, he's actively threatening those interests. [/B][/quote] Which is horrible and actively damaging to the planet. Does this not scare you that a man is denying climate change which we know is going to destroy large areas of the earth and cause even more problems? [quote]He's a nationalist with some strong sympathies for the American worker, and is essentially a renegade member of his class. [/QUOTE] Sympathy when he wants to kill their healthcare? When he wants to destroy their environment? When he's actively pushing against trade deals that have contributed significantly to the American environment? When he's shown in his many business decisions to have screwed over the ordinary worker? I don't see how he can be a "renegade" when quite a number of billionaires actively support him and are in his cabinet. He's an establishment billionaire - there's no other way of viewing him. [QUOTE]He's not much of a friend, but he says things that the working class is thinking, [B]and it's scaring those in power into thinking a Hitler and the brownshirts are coming for them.[/B] The hysteria is actually pretty amusing, but more importantly also shifting the overton window. By bringing up nazism of all things when confronted with the most basic versions of civic nationalism and pandering to the economic woes of the middle and working classes, you get people to think you really don't want them talking about the latter. So they do it out of spite. [/QUOTE] Considering it's the Republicans are in power and they're actively supporting him, they don't seem to be scared of brownshirts. Also I'm fairly sure people are calling Trump a fascist because he's extremely authoritarian and has fascist policies? What do you call his xenophobia... or what this thread is about? The vast majority of people here have extremely developed criticisms of Trump and don't just scream "FASCISM" like you seem to be suggesting - especially when Trump is [I]not[/I] doing the basics when it comes to civics, and his pandering to economic woes is just that - pandering without substance. [QUOTE]But let's be serious, [B]there are no trump supporters here[/B]. FP was always on the liberal side, but american polarization has turned it into an echo chamber. [/QUOTE] You have got to be kidding me. That's a blatant lie. There are plenty of Trump supporters, and there were some even more extreme ones before they got banned for breaking the rules. [QUOTE][B]American culture wars are older than today's LGBT rights movement.[/B][/QUOTE] Are you suggesting that LGBT rights are just a culture war? I'll make it clear that was not my point because I don't believe in this weird idea of a "culture war". I believe that people whining about LGBT rights being a thing should learn to just treat people like fucking people [quote][B]Today, it's also much bigger than that, it's about a kind of identity politics tribalism that undermines Western liberalism and turns democratic representation into a zero-sum game of in groups. It's the post-colonial, anti-Western left wing narratives that completely sabotages the middle class dream (you can never achieve it because of the white supremacist capitalist patriarchy), the American civic identity (it's a false consciousness that makes you submit to the white supremacist capitalist patriarchy), and liberal individualism (we can analyze society on the basis of class, race, and sex and arrive at the conclusion we live in a white supremacist capitalist patriarchy and not a democracy of free individuals). Thus Sargon of Akkad. [/B][/quote] What. That's so filled with a combination of a huge amount of terms I'm not able to respond to it properly. You do realise Akkad is known to be a liar and completely disingenuous right? You're using a bunch of words that are maybe somewhat believed by a tiny majority - and are ignoring that the vast majority of people just don't want their rights trampled on. It should be pretty fuckin' clear to you that the reason a lot of LGBT people, for example, are "left" people is because well... that's the only fuckin' side in America that gives a shit about 'em. I like how you claim it's all about identity too. And not rights. When that's at the heart of the matter. Let's be clear here, the American Republican party doesn't give a god-damn fuck about LGBT people. So naturally they're gonna be pretty vocal in their distaste for them, "wrongly" or "rightly". Tl;dr I really don't get where you're getting a lot of your ideas and thoughts from, they seem to be a complete contradiction of the facts and what's actually happening, and what we know to be true. The fact you think Sargon of Akkad of all people is somehow an intelligent response to... what, a certain amount of extreme college kids? And that justifies people like Trump, and people's support of Trump? is very fucking scary to someone living in Europe. You made a point earlier that America has a high crime rate compared to Europe. Do you not think then that means that America should heavily adopt European models and systems in crime... and maybe even more to the left, since America is so right of Europe it's not even funny? You claim that the ideas expressed by some on the left is a threat to Western Democracy. Yet I think you only need to take look one glance at Trump or what's happening in somewhere like Poland, and realise that this nationalism he and others are unleashing, are the real threat. Especially when they would want to take away the rights of someone like me.
[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;52519763] You do realise Akkad is known to be a liar and completely disingenuous right?[/quote] Akkad is awesome. [quote][B]You're using a bunch of words that are maybe somewhat believed by a tiny majority[/B].[/quote] What are you talking about? The entire problem is that someone calling for increased police presence in specified areas to reign in a criminal underclass is immediately interpreted as a kind of top-down racial conflict. It's once again an us vs them attitude, a zero sum game it's not supposed to be. How often is the GOP baited as a party of old rich white men, for example, instead of a party of a more classic kind of liberal? Are you actually telling me a lot of people don't judge everything political in America in a racial and/or class lens? That this doesn't completely undermine democracy? [quote]I like how you claim it's all about identity too. And not rights. When that's at the heart of the matter. Let's be clear here, the American Republican party doesn't give a god-damn fuck about LGBT people. So naturally they're gonna be pretty vocal in their distaste for them, "wrongly" or "rightly".[/quote] If the issue is the social conservatives, then explain to me why LGBT rights is conflated with leftism and concern with wider concepts of 'social justice' and the progressive stack, rather than just holding America's political system to be consistently liberal and individualist when it comes to LGBT individuals. I already know the answer. This is how a basic legal rights movements completely compatible with liberalism transforms into a form of cultural jamming weaponized by the left in times of rising inequality, loss of faith in democracy, and any unresolved social issues after legal equality. That can be dangerous. [quote]Tl;dr I really don't get where you're getting a lot of your ideas and thoughts from, they seem to be a complete contradiction of the facts and what's actually happening, and what we know to be true. The fact you think Sargon of Akkad of all people is somehow an intelligent response to... what, a certain amount of extreme college kids?[/quote] Half of 18-29 year olds hate capitalism. I think people need to stop pretending this is the 2000s, the political landscape has a changed a lot. Also, I think Sargon is very well reasoned as to why he fears the left more than the right. Ultimately his reason is the same as mine, he thinks the left is far more institutional in nature and often aligns with interests of the wealthy. This is why he's always calling Remainers bourgeois lefties that hate the working class. He also realizes the left does not carry the same social taboo as the right does for historical reasons, because the West did experience the horrors of right wing nationalism, it did not experience communism. It only had boomer liberals of the 60s. [quote]Yet I think you only need to take look one glance at Trump or what's happening in somewhere like Poland, and realise that this nationalism he and others are unleashing, are the real threat.[/quote] Nationalism is a reaction to the growth of multinational unions like the EU and the sheer power of international capitalism these days, [b]which [i]are[/i] the threat to democracy[b]. Are you serious? Nobody on the left respects a peacefully elected president and they call for 'resistance', way too many people were calling for a second referendum on brexit/ignoring the old vote/completely disregarding brexit, and the EU essentially wants to bypass popular will in poland by holding the state to some agreements made in a different time under different circumstances. Nationalism is only even rising because of all the money in politics steering a country in a direction the people who are in the countryside and/or of a lower class don't want. It's basically seen as a weapon to be used against wealthy urban cosmopolitans and their political machines and NGOs. That's why we have populists now. It's pretty fucking ironic that the nationalists these days are the anti-war types, the ones defending liberal values like free speech, and coming out against neoliberal cuts on social services (like Poland's Law and Justice does). Who is a threat to who here? [quote]Especially when they would want to take away the rights of someone like me.[/QUOTE] I find it really odd actually that a LGBT person wouldn't be rabidly pro-Western, being that it's one of the few places you're protected in the world because of our liberalism, and find that mass migration without liberalization of their culture and reformation of their religion is a direct threat to people like you. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory#/media/File:World_laws_pertaining_to_homosexual_relationships_and_expression.svg[/url]
[QUOTE=Conscript;52519939] I find it really odd actually that a LGBT person wouldn't be rabidly pro-Western, being that it's one of the few places you're protected in the world because of our liberalism, and find that mass migration without liberalization of their culture and reformation of their religion is a direct threat to people like you. [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory#/media/File:World_laws_pertaining_to_homosexual_relationships_and_expression.svg[/URL][/QUOTE] I think the issue is that the vast majority of LGBT people only have a voice in Western countries by nature of our more civilised societies, so they only criticise the West as that is all they know and they simply don't give a shit about places like the Middle East or care about the people there as they don't live there themselves. They are not internationalists, ultimately all they really care about is change in their own environment. It's true with many people, not just LGBTQAI+.
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