• Just when Justin Bieber thinks he out of trouble: Justin Bieber post photo of himself at Japanese WW
    156 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;44624277]Of course he picked the wrong shrine. The real question is why the Japanese have over a thousand war criminals there. These aren't simply men who happened to be on the wrong side, but commanding officers who deliberately went out of their way to commit atrocities, many of them not being punished in the process or escaping justice.[/QUOTE] Try going to Japan and asking about Nanking. It's on the level of holocaust denial, to them Nanking either didn't happen or it's been hugely exaggerated. It's gross how much self denial there is [editline]23rd April 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=J!NX;44624299]because they are terrible human beings but those soldiers (war criminals) still have families that are alive today and exist because of those people. what are they going to do? Burn the bodies and dump them into a lake "Because they were terrible people"?[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure there's a middle ground between burning the bodies and enshrining them
[QUOTE=J!NX;44624299]because they are terrible human beings but those soldiers (war criminals) still have families that are alive today and exist because of those people. what are they going to do? Burn the bodies and dump them into a lake "Because they were terrible people"?[/QUOTE] Just removing the names from the register at the shrine and apologizing to Korea, China, and Taiwan would probably be sufficient.
[QUOTE=RustledJimmys;44624302]How is it ignorant and stupid if he didn't know the significance.[/QUOTE] because he was ignorant of the significance or of the actions that the Japanese did? "Didn't know something important" and "Ignorant" are one in the same [QUOTE=Sobotnik;44624314]Just removing the names from the register at the shrine and apologizing to Korea, China, and Taiwan would probably be sufficient.[/QUOTE] the shrine should stay but no doubt Japan should be apologizing for being utterly terrible and shitty for the worst of reasons I feel its less about enshrining their actions, but instead enshrining their families and death, but don't quote me on that being fact please. That's an assumption really.
Ignorant and stupid don't go together.
Justin is usually an idiot, but anyone could've made this mistake. Not his fault.
[QUOTE=J!NX;44624333] the shrine should stay but no doubt Japan should be apologizing for being utterly terrible and shitty for the worst of reasons I feel its less about enshrining their actions, but instead enshrining their families and death, but don't quote me on that being fact please. That's an assumption really.[/QUOTE] It enshrines individuals who died in the service of Japan. [quote]A deceased must fall into one of the following categories for enshrinement: Military personnel, and civilians serving for the military, who were: Died as a result of war crime tribunals which have been ratified by the San Francisco Peace Treaty[/quote] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine#Eligible_categories[/url] Furthermore, the shrine has added individuals against the wishes of some people. [quote]Enshrinement is not exclusive to people of Japanese descent. Yasukuni Shrine has enshrined 27,863 Taiwanese and 21,181 Koreans without consultation of surviving family members and in some cases against the stated wishes of the family members[/quote] The fact they have a special provision which adds those who died as a result of tribunals is enough to say that the shrine is deliberately enshrining people who committed war crimes.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;44624438]It enshrines individuals who died in the service of Japan. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine#Eligible_categories[/url] Furthermore, the shrine has added individuals against the wishes of some people. The fact they have a special provision which adds those who died as a result of tribunals is enough to say that the shrine is deliberately enshrining people who committed war crimes.[/QUOTE] fair enough then, but I'm sure you also get what I'm saying Can't totally forget what happened after all but you can't try and remove the fact that it happened by totally disrespecting the dead, the LEAST they could do is change it to a cemetery of the soldiers rather than a shrine, but something should still stand for the dead, with their names on it, as they still do have families [QUOTE=be;44624367]Ignorant and stupid don't go together.[/QUOTE] I don't even know how you can say this considering he apparently didn't know what germany was a few years ago I'd say "ignorant" and "Stupid" are spot on
I feel like people are just looking for things to criticize him for now.
[QUOTE=be;44624367]Ignorant and stupid don't go together.[/QUOTE] idk, you seems to make it work
It is a beautiful shrine, can't blame him for visiting. Taking a picture "praying" is pretty shitty though.
[QUOTE=Allah;44623756]Yeah, fuck history. Let's destroy that opressive slavery-minded Roman art, let's destroy the discriminative Abrahamic scriptures and so on. And while we're at it, let's destroy all monuments, statues, the vatican. They're just a waste of space. Speak for yourself.[/QUOTE] Sorry, I should have looked up about the monument first. Turns out the criminals were added to the thing afterward, a hundred years after it was first built. It's a piece of history now, yes, and I wouldn't want it to be demolished, I was questioning why it was built in the first place because I had assumed it had been built at the end of the Second World War. I think the shrine itself is actually quite beautiful, but perhaps a new plaque should be placed there to show that these men were enshrined during a different time in Japan's history, where those war crimes were ignored. Then again, a lot of people seem to be doing that at the moment, so it doesn't seem that likely. In other words, I was an idiot and didn't do my research. Destroying history is stupid, but I was asking more why it had been constructed at all under the (incorrect) assumption that it was relatively recent.
There's nothing wrong with this shrine, the only people that have a problem with it are some Japanese people who have the extreme anti-war rhetoric. Furthermore the shrine is located directly across the street from the Emperor's castle, and it's not like there are any signs that say "HEY THIS IS A CONTROVERSIAL WAR SHRINE TO ENSHRINE OUR WAR DEAD ALERT!!!". There's actually a very nice museum there, one of my favorite parts of the museum is a room that is filled to the brim with the picture of every serviceman that died for Japan in World War 2 and multitudes of their last letters to their family. It's a very touching and emotional display. Anyways, some of you guys are crazy. Japanese people don't even care enough about this shit like you do. My wife's uncle is actually enshrined there.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;44624554]I feel like people are just looking for things to criticize him for now.[/QUOTE] Not really. Paying respects to some of the worst war criminals in history is something that Japan as a whole takes flak for from the west. Stuff like the Rape of Nanking, Bataan Death March (and general horrible treatment of POWs), and Unit 731 etc... The Japanese refuse to acknowledge their atrocities in the war and praise the war criminals. Japan doesn't get as much shit as it should for being the revisionist, xenophobic, militaristic/ultranationalist place that it is.
[QUOTE=J!NX;44624081]Justin Bieber is doing it out of not understanding what was going on, made more apparent by above posts but soldiers are still human beings too, even the Nazi's had its fair share of good people, and the Japanese are no nazi's [URL="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1071838/"]If you want to really understand what I'm talking about [/URL] go find this on netflix and watch it. It's an amazing documentary of a Vietnam photographer. Sure they are from Americans perspective horrible people but they're more human than people seem to care to understand.[/QUOTE] Cant find that on Netflix.
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;44625981]There's nothing wrong with this shrine, the only people that have a problem with it are some Japanese people who have the extreme anti-war rhetoric. Furthermore the shrine is located directly across the street from the Emperor's castle, and it's not like there are any signs that say "HEY THIS IS A CONTROVERSIAL WAR SHRINE TO ENSHRINE OUR WAR DEAD ALERT!!!". There's actually a very nice museum there, one of my favorite parts of the museum is a room that is filled to the brim with the picture of every serviceman that died for Japan in World War 2 and multitudes of their last letters to their family. It's a very touching and emotional display. Anyways, some of you guys are crazy. Japanese people don't even care enough about this shit like you do. My wife's uncle is actually enshrined there.[/QUOTE] The main problem with it is the fact it enshrines a number of notorious war criminals, with the knowledge of this being widely known. The Japanese more or less tried to pretend it didn't happen for a few decades after the war, and only really in the past 20 years did they really bother to acknowledge they happened. Even today there's still a lot of Japanese people who are quite ignorant (compared to say the Germans) of the atrocities committed in the war. Quite a few Koreans, Taiwanese, and Chinese are still pretty annoyed because of the delayed time for apologies, the multiple attempts at shifting the blame or pretending they didn't happen, historical revisionism, the lack of prosecution of war criminals, how many of them escaped justice, and often the general half-hearted way in which these are done.
[QUOTE=J!NX;44624190]and this is why Justin Biebers paying respect is ignorant and he's stupid but I mean, I'm just saying, you know, they were still human beings.[/QUOTE] Because you know, despite the shrine being founded YEARS before WWII it was obviously dedicated to war criminals only. Does a whole graveyard suddenly become bad because there are a few murderers in it?
I don't think you guys realise how bad the Japanese soldiers were during WWII. The Japanese soldiers beheaded POWs on the Bataan Death March. They killed people who tried to help those POWs on the march and they burned down their houses and they killed their family. The Japanese soldiers were so, so cruel to POWs. The Japanese had "hell ships" where they put POWs in the storage area shoulder-to-shoulder. People would die standing up and their bodies would be stuck there. The POWs would get a bucket to do their business in and then their food would be placed in that same bucket, and who knows whether or not it was cleaned out. The POWs would hope and hope that a bomb would be dropped on the ship and just kill all of them. In one case where a bomb DID land on one of these ships, one American POW washed up on a beach, he was "rescued" by a Japanese soldier, and then put right back onto a hell ship. So how dare anyone say that they weren't that bad, or they weren't all that bad. How dare anyone belittle the things POWs captured by the Japanese military faced, and how dare anyone undermine what the Japanese military did. If you don't see the problem with this shrine now, there's no hope for you.
[QUOTE=witchgirls;44626823]I don't think you guys realise how bad the Japanese soldiers were during WWII. The Japanese soldiers beheaded POWs on the Bataan Death March. They killed people who tried to help those POWs on the march and they burned down their houses and they killed their family. The Japanese soldiers were so, so cruel to POWs. The Japanese had "hell ships" where they put POWs in the storage area shoulder-to-shoulder. People would die standing up and their bodies would be stuck there. The POWs would get a bucket to do their business in and then their food would be placed in that same bucket, and who knows whether or not it was cleaned out. The POWs would hope and hope that a bomb would be dropped on the ship and just kill all of them. In one case where a bomb DID land on one of these ships, one American POW washed up on a beach, he was "rescued" by a Japanese soldier, and then put right back onto a hell ship. So how dare anyone say that they weren't that bad, or they weren't all that bad. How dare anyone belittle the things POWs captured by the Japanese military faced, and how dare anyone undermine what the Japanese military did. If you don't see the problem with this shrine now, there's no hope for you.[/QUOTE] Its a good thing the shrine isn't dedicated only to Japanese soldiers from WWII then.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;44626751] Does a whole graveyard suddenly become bad because there are a few murderers in it?[/QUOTE] It's fair to say everyone in the Japanese military were murders, so yes, that graveyard sure as hell is bad. [editline]23rd April 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Kyle902;44626835]Its a good thing the shrine isn't dedicated only to Japanese soldiers from WWII then.[/QUOTE] Okay, but it's still dedicated to Japanese soldiers, and it commemorates Japanese militarism which was arguably one of the worst and most vicious.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;44626835]Its a good thing the shrine isn't dedicated only to Japanese soldiers from WWII then.[/QUOTE] It's still questionable why they would still add them to the shrine, along with the fact they add people whose families specifically requested that those people not be added.
[QUOTE=witchgirls;44626839]It's fair to say everyone in the Japanese military were murders, so yes, that graveyard sure as hell is bad.[/QUOTE] Hahahaha oh god are you serious? And the US where a bunch of white knights in shining armor right? There is no such thing as a good army. Every military has its demons, this does not mean that a shrine dedicated to the all of a countries military, past and present, is bad.
[QUOTE=RustledJimmys;44623862]People have different definitions of normal you know.[/QUOTE] There's normal normal, and then there's annoying stereotypical American teenager normal. Like are his pants literally almost at his knees or am I missing something?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;44626865]It's still questionable why they would still add them to the shrine, along with the fact they add people whose families specifically requested that those people not be added.[/QUOTE] The shrine shouldn't be thought of as horrible even after that. Its like saying that paying respects to [t]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/The_Marine_Corps_War_Memorial_in_Arlington,_Va.,_can_be_seen_prior_to_the_Sunset_Parade_June_4,_2013_130604-M-MM982-036.jpg[/t] or [t]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Arlington_House.jpg[/t] is bad because a few war criminals may be buried/memorialized there.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;44626871]Hahahaha oh god are you serious? And the US where a bunch of white knights in shining armor right? There is no such thing as a good army. Every military has its demons, this does not mean that a shrine dedicated to the all of a countries military, past and present, is bad.[/QUOTE] I never said anything about the US. I never claimed the US military to be either good or bad, so there's no point in even mentioning that. I've only mentioned American POWs. I think you're misguided. It's not very accurate nor is it very clear to say "there's no such thing as a good army." And the thing is is that we're speaking specifically about the Japanese military here, not the militaries of the world. You're veering off-topic here.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;44626871]Hahahaha oh god are you serious? And the US where a bunch of white knights in shining armor right? There is no such thing as a good army. Every military has its demons, this does not mean that a shrine dedicated to the all of a countries military, past and present, is bad.[/QUOTE] When we consider the conduct of soldiers in war in aggregate, the Americans were a lot more reserved than the Japanese. Remember that much of the Rape of Nanjing was perpetrated by Japanese footsoldiers as well. Many of them were rural types who had little discipline or professionalism. The fact that the Japanese military kept an entire service of "comfort women" for soldiers to rape and they forced prisoners of war to build railways is another one. The problem is why they added the names of known war criminals, quite a few of them having escaped justice.
[QUOTE=witchgirls;44626903]I never said anything about the US. I never claimed the US military to be either good or bad, so there's no point in even mentioning that. I've only mentioned American POWs. I think you're misguided. It's not very accurate nor is it very clear to say "there's no such thing as a good army." And the thing is is that we're speaking specifically about the Japanese military here, not the militaries of the world. You're veering off-topic here.[/QUOTE] Its called a comparison. Also you're the who spouted [quote] It's fair to say everyone in the Japanese military were murders, so yes, that graveyard sure as hell is bad.[/quote] so its your job to back up this claim. [editline]23rd April 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;44626911]When we consider the conduct of soldiers in war in aggregate, the Americans were a lot more reserved than the Japanese. Remember that much of the Rape of Nanjing was perpetrated by Japanese footsoldiers as well. Many of them were rural types who had little discipline or professionalism. The fact that the Japanese military kept an entire service of "comfort women" for soldiers to rape and they forced prisoners of war to build railways is another one. The problem is why they added the names of known war criminals, quite a few of them having escaped justice.[/QUOTE] I'm not refuting that. I'm refuting his statement of [quote] It's fair to say everyone in the Japanese military were murders, so yes, that graveyard sure as hell is bad.[/quote] which is a horrible claim
[QUOTE=Kyle902;44626902]The shrine shouldn't be thought of as horrible even after that. Its like saying that paying respects to [t]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/The_Marine_Corps_War_Memorial_in_Arlington,_Va.,_can_be_seen_prior_to_the_Sunset_Parade_June_4,_2013_130604-M-MM982-036.jpg[/t] or [t]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Arlington_House.jpg[/t] is bad because a few war criminals may be buried/memorialized there.[/QUOTE] Would you be fine with a war memorial which had the names of various members of the SS on it in Germany? What about a war memorial with the names of Himmler, Hitler, Goebbels, etc on it, since they died in the service of Germany?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;44626940]Would you be fine with a war memorial which had the names of various members of the SS on it in Germany? What about a war memorial with the names of Himmler, Hitler, Goebbels, etc on it, since they died in the service of Germany?[/QUOTE] That's a pretty bad comparison. Theres a difference between a memorial dedicated to all members of ones armed services and a memorial specific to a few war criminals.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;44626902]The shrine shouldn't be thought of as horrible even after that. Its like saying that paying respects to [t]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/The_Marine_Corps_War_Memorial_in_Arlington,_Va.,_can_be_seen_prior_to_the_Sunset_Parade_June_4,_2013_130604-M-MM982-036.jpg[/t] or [t]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Arlington_House.jpg[/t] is bad because a few war criminals may be buried/memorialized there.[/QUOTE] We aren't talking about a few war criminals. The Imperial Japanese Army and Japan's war crimes were systemic. Two Japanese officers had a competition on who could be the first to kill 100 people with a sword and Japanese newspapers reported it like a sporting event. The Japanese Army was sick and twisted in every way. Or how about the 200,000 women forced into sex slavery for the Japanese Army?
[QUOTE=J!NX;44624501]I don't even know how you can say this considering he apparently didn't know what germany was a few years ago I'd say "ignorant" and "Stupid" are spot on[/QUOTE] Ignorance doesn't always mean stupidity, I'm sure that is what he's saying. Don't conflate general stupidity with specific ignorance
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.