Just when Justin Bieber thinks he out of trouble: Justin Bieber post photo of himself at Japanese WW
156 replies, posted
[QUOTE=galenmarek;44627249]on 375 occasions...
-snip images[/QUOTE]
"On 375 occasions"
*proceeds to post two images with no description of what they depict
[editline]23rd April 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=witchgirls;44627261]Holy shit you're truly a lost cause. You keep specifically bringing up the US, so don't try to lie about that.
You seriously cannot compare what you've been trying to compare to the war crimes committed by the Japanese. You cannot compare the US's "glossing over" of these "bad things" to Japan's complete glorification of their military history.
You don't understand this. Stop arguing it. You don't know about this. You won't attempt to learn about any of this. Just stop, please.[/QUOTE]
Why don't you try and comprehend that I AM NOT DEFENDING JAPAN OR SAYING IT NEVER COMMITTED WAR CRIMES.
I am saying that the shrine is a WAR MEMORIAL not a WAR CRIME MEMORIAL.
THATS WHY I WAS COMPARING IT TO US WAR MEMORIALS.
And your excessive ad hominem does not help you at all.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;44627231]You people seem to be missing my point entirely. I am saying that the shrine is a memorial to japans MILITARY. Not Japans WAR CRIMES. Thus is should be held in the same regard as every war memorial in every country.[/QUOTE]
You're missing our points. We are explaining why the shrine is so offensive and you're just flat-out refusing to listen to any of us. Stop trying to be right and just listen to us.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;44627267]"On 375 occasions"
*proceeds to post two images with no description of what they depict
[editline]23rd April 2014[/editline]
Why don't you try and comprehend that I AM NOT DEFENDING JAPAN OR SAYING IT NEVER COMMITTED WAR CRIMES.
I am saying that the shrine is a WAR MEMORIAL not a WAR CRIME MEMORIAL.
THATS WHY I WAS COMPARING IT TO US WAR MEMORIALS.
And your excessive ad hominem does not help you at all.[/QUOTE]
It's very clear what they're depicting - they're armed and wearing gas masks, and in one surrounded by a gas.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;44627231]
I am saying that the shrine is a memorial to japans MILITARY.[/QUOTE]
It memorializes war criminals. Its the difference between having a memorial for German soldiers and having a memorial for Hermann Goering, Goebbels and Adolf Hitler.
[QUOTE=witchgirls;44627293]You're missing our points. We are explaining why the shrine is so offensive and you're just flat-out refusing to listen to any of us. Stop trying to be right and just listen to us.[/QUOTE]
Is the shrine specifically dedicated to those 14 names on the fucking memorial?
No it isn't. It's a WAR memorial. Are you telling me that a cemetery for German soldiers is offensive because it has a few SS in it that had participated in war crimes?
Are you telling me that the various Russian WWII memorials are offensive because they memorialize a military that participated in war crimes?
[editline]23rd April 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;44627319]It memorializes war criminals. Its the difference between having a memorial for German soldiers and having a memorial for Hermann Goering, Goebbels and Adolf Hitler.[/QUOTE]
No an accurate analogy would be having a memorial for German soldiers that also has Hermann Goering, Goebbels, and Adolf Hitler on it.
kyle would you agree to have the war criminals names removed from the memorial
[QUOTE=Kyle902;44627333]Is the shrine specifically dedicated to those 14 names on the fucking memorial?
No it isn't. It's a WAR memorial. Are you telling me that a cemetery for German soldiers is offensive because it has a few SS in it that had participated in war crimes?
Are you telling me that the various Russian WWII memorials are offensive because they memorialize a military that participated in war crimes?[/QUOTE]
No, this memorial is offensive because the Japanese military won't acknowledge the war crimes they've committed and they glorify the war. The shrine is a continued glorification of their part in the war and it's a continuation of not acknowledging their war crimes.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;44627366]kyle would you agree to have the war criminals names removed from the memorial[/QUOTE]
I've said that I agree to that already.
I am not saying that the names shouldn't be removed. I am saying that it shouldn't be offensive to go to a memorial that includes the names of thousands of Japanese servicemen because it has the names of 14 war criminals on it.
As a Japanese-Canadian who's been to Yasukuni Shrine and the attached museum, I'm conflicted. I agree that the museum's materials are very revisionist and try to frame Japan's imperialist aggression as responding to its need for self-defense and economic sustenance (both of which are imo total bullshit) in the face of provocation by the evil West.
However, [B]if it weren't for the fact that the Japanese government hasn't fully apologized for what Japan did during the war, and if figures like Tojo were not also included in the shrine[/B], I would not see a problem with it existing, and in fact I think it should continue to exist. Whether or not we agree with what they did, millions of Japanese died in a pointless war that in the end gained Japan nothing.
On that note, the best exhibit at the Yushukan was a giant photo gallery filled with nothing but portraits of thousands of KIA for several rooms. It wasn't politicized at all, and just presented the sheer casualties for what it was.
I don't know, I think it's important to see it from the perspective of someone who has some inkling of Japanese culture and history, but not so much that they don't see the obvious faults. A lot of Americans would say the thing should be torn down, but that fails to really consider that a lot of Japanese soldiers were just normal people who never actually committed atrocities to any extent (and also might ignore that Americans did the same in retaliation on several documented occasions). On the flipside,a lot of Japanese that think the shrine doesn't need to remove war criminals from its lists don't realize that by doing so it also perpetuates the idea that the Japanese people as a whole condone the actions of those criminals.
[QUOTE=witchgirls;44627370]No, this memorial is offensive because the Japanese military won't acknowledge the war crimes they've committed and they glorify the war. The shrine is a continued glorification of their part in the war and it's a continuation of not acknowledging their war crimes.[/QUOTE]
The memorial was built at the end of the Meiji Restoration dude. It was around BEFORE the war crimes where committed.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;44627393]The memorial was built at the end of the Meiji Restoration dude. It was around BEFORE the war crimes where committed.[/QUOTE]
That doesn't even matter because it is also meant for WWII. The time period it was built in has no effect on the uses and purposes of it.
[QUOTE=witchgirls;44627414]That doesn't even matter because it is also meant for WWII. The time period it was built in has no effect on the uses and purposes of it.[/QUOTE]
Tell me what the uses and purpose of the shrine is.
Again, I think the biggest way of solving it would be to remove figures like Hideki Tojo and all Class A war criminals from the shrine. It was originally meant for those who had died during the Boshin Wars, which were pretty damn important to the unification of Japan, and the Russo-Japanese War, one in which Japanese soldiers were actually commended for following the "laws of war" to a tee but suffered a large amount of casualties.
The biggest issue right now resides in what to do with those who served in the Sino-Japanese Wars, the invasion of Korea, and World War II. You'd have to be an idiot to say that all Japanese soldiers were war criminals, the same way that I wouldn't call every German soldier a Nazi just because they served in the Wehrmacht, but it's also stupid to pretend that the war criminals don't exist.
Shame Justin is a woman, if it were a man they would have to have pretty big balls for pulling a stunt like this.
I don't really fault Justin for going there, he probably didn't do the research and he's an idiot for that but at least he's not going full Abe and going there for political reasons.
[QUOTE=itak365;44627387]As a Japanese-Canadian who's been to Yasukuni Shrine and the attached museum, I'm conflicted. I agree that the museum's materials are very revisionist and try to frame Japan's imperialist aggression as responding to its need for self-defense and economic sustenance (both of which are imo total bullshit) in the face of provocation by the evil West.
However, [B]if it weren't for the fact that the Japanese government hasn't fully apologized for what Japan did during the war, and if figures like Tojo were not also included in the shrine[/B], I would not see a problem with it existing, and in fact I think it should continue to exist. Whether or not we agree with what they did, millions of Japanese died in a pointless war that in the end gained Japan nothing.
On that note, the best exhibit at the Yushukan was a giant photo gallery filled with nothing but portraits of thousands of KIA for several rooms. It wasn't politicized at all, and just presented the sheer casualties for what it was.
I don't know, I think it's important to see it from the perspective of someone who has some inkling of Japanese culture and history, but not so much that they don't see the obvious faults. A lot of Americans would say the thing should be torn down, but that fails to really consider that a lot of Japanese soldiers were just normal people who never actually committed atrocities to any extent (and also might ignore that Americans did the same in retaliation on several documented occasions). On the flipside,a lot of Japanese that think the shrine doesn't need to remove war criminals from its lists don't realize that by doing so it also perpetuates the idea that the Japanese people as a whole condone the actions of those criminals.[/QUOTE]
Agree with you completely bro, especially about the photo gallery exhibit. I was almost moved to tears after reading the notes from family members and seeing the faces of everybody on the wall, one of the biggest surprises I found at the Yushukan was that the Rape of Nanking was made into a footnote basically saying "So we attacked this place and supposedly there were atrocities committed but we didn't condone any of it".
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;44627503]Agree with you completely bro, especially about the photo gallery exhibit. I was almost moved to tears after reading the notes from family members and seeing the faces of everybody on the wall, one of the biggest surprises I found at the Yushukan was that the Rape of Nanking was made into a footnote basically saying "So we attacked this place and supposedly there were atrocities committed but we didn't condone any of it".[/QUOTE]
In my opinion, they either should have gone all out and made some sort of exhibit explaining what happened in complete truth, or not mentioned it at all. I remember thinking it was kind of a cop-out, but I guess in that case that's a matter of being politically correct. I went on December 8th aka Pearl Harbor Day and with the amount of Uyoku-Dantai walking around, I wouldn't have wanted to make a firm statement in either direction around those crazy bastards.
[QUOTE=itak365;44627548]In my opinion, they either should have gone all out and made some sort of exhibit explaining what happened in complete truth, or not mentioned it at all. I remember thinking it was kind of a cop-out, but I guess in that case that's a matter of being politically correct. I went on December 8th aka Pearl Harbor Day and with the amount of Uyoku-Dantai walking around, I wouldn't have wanted to make a firm statement in either direction around those crazy bastards.[/QUOTE]
At least with their silly propaganda spouting vans they have less of a chance of ever being taken really seriously. It's a shame that this sort of stuff can detract of an otherwise solid memorial to everyone who died in service to Japan post-restoration.
[QUOTE=galenmarek;44627579]At least with their silly propaganda spouting black vans they have less of a chance of ever being really seriously. It's a shame that this sort of stuff can detract of an otherwise solid memorial to everyone who died in service to Japan post-restoration.[/QUOTE]
When I went there, I wondered if native Japanese judged us for going there as tourists, especially on that day, or if they just reasoned we're like curious people visiting the Creation Museum.
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;44627503]"So we attacked this place and supposedly there were atrocities committed but we didn't condone any of it".[/QUOTE]
Apparently the Shrine claims that the Manchurian Incidents were legitimate and not staged. Thats nice.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;44626902]The shrine shouldn't be thought of as horrible even after that.
Its like saying that paying respects to
[t]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/The_Marine_Corps_War_Memorial_in_Arlington,_Va.,_can_be_seen_prior_to_the_Sunset_Parade_June_4,_2013_130604-M-MM982-036.jpg[/t]
or
[t]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Arlington_House.jpg[/t]
is bad because a few war criminals may be buried/memorialized there.[/QUOTE]
Except that war criminals are located in a different part
[QUOTE=itak365;44627600]When I went there, I wondered if native Japanese judged us for going there as tourists, especially on that day, or if they just reasoned we're like curious people visiting the Creation Museum.[/QUOTE]
It wasn't too busy when I went and I didn't feel like I was being judged by anyone for being there, I didn't pray at the shrine though. There were actually quite a few foreigners when I went. Also, as far as I know the museum is not maintained by the government and by private entities...so what decides to go in there isn't up to the Japanese government.
Actually the shrine isn't just for people that died in World War II it also is for people before that also.
Hirohito wasn't a bad guy, Tojo was bad, Hirohito was just a puppet for the junta to give people a face to believe in rather than a bunch of generals.
war criminals should never be respected or in anyway revered. but yeah i highly doubt jbiebz knew anything about the shrine and it's pretty ridiculous to get all up and arms about it at him. if i went past it i'd have gotten a photo in front of it too, it DOES look cool. get angry at the people who control the memorial not removing the dedications to war criminals rather than get angry at bieber which is pretty pointless I M O
[QUOTE=Allah;44623474]Why is this offensive?[/QUOTE]
Because the shrine is offensive.
The attendant museum for it is called "The musuem of the war to [B]prevent the expansion of western colonialism and liberate Asia."[/B]
That's the actual fucking name. Japan has never taken responsibility for its action in WW2, and they committed atrocities on the same level as the Nazis did.
[quote]
I know the museum is not maintained by the government and by private entities...so what decides to go in there isn't up to the Japanese government. [/quote]
Tacitly supporting something is pretty much the same thing. Government officials make publicized pilgrimages there all the time. Japan, the government, has been led by at least three convicted war criminals. Did they just [I]accidentally[/I] get elected?
right.
Certain members of the Japanese military committed war crimes. Yes.
The shrine is dedicated to all Japanese serviceman and military.
Therefore those servicemen who were part of the Japanese military should in accords to the principle placed by the shrine be in the shrine.
Regardless of what immoral actions were committed, the shrine is dedicated to ALL servicemen, therefore ALL servicemen shall have their names in the shrine.
Facepunch you do not define the principle, the shrine does.
[QUOTE=Arctic Snow;44630441]Certain members of the Japanese military committed war crimes. Yes.
The shrine is dedicated to all Japanese serviceman and military.
Therefore those servicemen who were part of the Japanese military should in accords to the principle placed by the shrine be in the shrine.
Regardless of what immoral actions were committed, the shrine is dedicated to ALL servicemen, therefore ALL servicemen shall have their names in the shrine.
Facepunch you do not define the principle, the shrine does.[/QUOTE]
well maybe someone should let this sentient shrine know how stupid and disgusting it is to commemorate war criminals
Because of this thread I've discovered the Nanking Massacre and the various Units of experimentation. Today has been a depressing day.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;44630462]well maybe someone should let this sentient know how stupid and disgusting it is to commemorate war criminals[/QUOTE]
Well maybe someone should let the Vietnam Veterans Memorial shrine know how stupid and disgusting it is to commemorate people who committed immoral acts against certain Vietnamese.
Every country has had members of it's military commit immoral acts. Just let it be.
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