[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42286560]Hear that skittering, insectile noise? That's the MRAs crawling from the woodwork. The very mention of the words 'false rape' fills them with obscene activity.[/QUOTE]
It's almost as if both things are things that happen and this shows that a thorough investigation should be done instead of relying on emotional accusations. Or no I guess doubting a claim is victim blaming so this case is a horrible example of patriarchy.
when it comes to false rape allegations i'd say them ruining peoples lives is far more a failure of law enforcement and the justice system
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42288001]when it comes to false rape allegations i'd say them ruining peoples lives is far more a failure of law enforcement and the justice system[/QUOTE]
The legal aspect isn't nearly as destructive as the social aspect. Hell it doesn't even have to get anywhere near a courtroom for it to be destructive.
i can't imagine anything worse though, i'd recently found out that my best friend who was falsely accused of sexual assault had tried to kill himself due to the stigma he was facing. only reason he's still alive is because the shells in his dads shotgun had been in there so long they didn't work or some shit. when i heard about that i was pretty furious and if i had seen the girl in person around that time i probably would have punched her in the face, which is no good, it's easy to get angry to the point of losing control over these kind of things
[QUOTE=yawmwen;42287966]
no this actually happens a lot and it highlights a serious flaw in the judicial system(at least in the united states). it's very common for defendants to be coerced into either confessing to crimes, or have the defendant intimidated into taking a plea deal. idk if you have ever been accused of a violent crime before, but it is incredibly scary, and even more scary when you only have money for a public defender who outright lies to your face about evidence against you to scare you into a guilty plea.[/QUOTE]
I'm not going to deny the existence of systemic corruption because I see evidence of it daily but in this situation we're no longer just talking about someone who is the victim of a false accusation, but someone who is a victim of a broken justice system. This goes beyond the culpability of the accuser.
[QUOTE=jaegerisacunt;42288024]The legal aspect isn't nearly as destructive as the social aspect. Hell it doesn't even have to get anywhere near a courtroom for it to be destructive.[/QUOTE]
yeah i can dig that, like in my story, that dude was walking down the street when another guy who'd heard what he'd allegedly done runs up behind him and punches him in the back of the head knocking him unconscious
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42288001]when it comes to false rape allegations i'd say them ruining peoples lives is far more a failure of law enforcement and the justice system[/QUOTE]
There's also a huge issue with society as a whole constantly looking for someone to demonize, regardless of facts
Ironically it's the same attitude that makes so many people immediately doubt every woman who reports that they've been raped
[QUOTE=Zeke129;42288033]I'm not going to deny the existence of systemic corruption because I see evidence of it daily but in this situation we're no longer just talking about someone who is the victim of a false accusation, but someone who is a victim of a broken justice system. This goes beyond the culpability of the accuser.[/QUOTE]
yea i hope it's clear i'm not talking about the accuser. i don't want to belittle the allegations made by rape survivors/victims. i'm just saying false convictions can happen simply because the judicial system is broke as fuck.
[QUOTE=jaegerisacunt;42288024]The legal aspect isn't nearly as destructive as the social aspect. Hell it doesn't even have to get anywhere near a courtroom for it to be destructive.[/QUOTE]
Even if you're proven innocent you'll still have to face terrible repercussions.
Reforming the system is a great idea but how should we punish people who make false claims? Harsh punishments would just discourage legitimate rape victims from contacting the authorities and being lenient would just let this continue.
well, i think someone that makes false rape allegations must have something a bit fuckey in their head, so maybe make them go to counseling and shit like that. i'm not sure how the problem of the social stigma could ever be solved
[QUOTE=S31-Syntax;42286583]So... what's that thing on her bottom lip?[/QUOTE]
Rice crispy from breakfast.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;42288084]Even if you're proven innocent you'll still have to face terrible repercussions.
Reforming the system is a great idea but how should we punish people who make false claims? Harsh punishments would just discourage legitimate rape victims from contacting the authorities and being lenient would just let this continue.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much the problem, any scrutiny of the victim ends up being called sexist or misogynistic in these cases, giving no scrutiny at all and taking the victims statements at face value allows for this to occur.
If an allegation which is determined to be false actually is true, then a punishment meant to be for filing a false claim ends up punishing an actual victim for reporting a crime. You don't want that either. Doesn't help that if you put a punishment for a false allegation it prevents people who filed them and succeeded from telling the truth for fear of punishment.
This ends up being, no punishment having the least consequences which means that the system can continue to get abused.
Maybe community service would be an acceptable punishment and mandatory therapy, thus helping them either cope with being raped but them having no proof of it, or stabilizing a person and making them understand there are consequences for claiming something as false.
[QUOTE=deadoon;42288310][B]Pretty much the problem, any scrutiny of the victim ends up being called sexist or misogynistic in these cases, giving no scrutiny at all and taking the victims statements at face value allows for this to occur.
[/B]
If an allegation which is determined to be false actually is true, then a punishment meant to be for filing a false claim ends up punishing an actual victim for reporting a crime. You don't want that either. Doesn't help that if you put a punishment for a false allegation it prevents people who filed them and succeeded from telling the truth for fear of punishment.
This ends up being, no punishment having the least consequences which means that the system can continue to get abused.
Maybe community service would be an acceptable punishment and mandatory therapy, thus helping them either cope with being raped but them having no proof of it, or stabilizing a person and making them understand there are consequences for claiming something as false.[/QUOTE]
that's not true at all. in fact from what i've seen it's generally the inverse, the women are thought to either be liars, or they were asking for it, or they totally wanted it and changed their mind afterwards. why do you think so many rapes go unreported? because for alot of women the social stigma is against THEM. apart from that i agree with you, although i think just therapy rather than any community service
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42288330]that's not true at all. in fact from what i've seen it's generally the inverse, the women are thought to either be liars, or they were asking for it, or they totally wanted it and changed their mind afterwards. why do you think so many rapes go unreported? because for alot of women the social stigma is against THEM. apart from that i agree with you, although i think just therapy rather than any community service[/QUOTE]
The problem is that those who scrutinize will end up throwing out cases that have no definitive evidence anyway, thus actual cases get thrown out or ignored, and this practice is considered sexist usually due to this, so cases with no evidence that aren't thrown out merely get ignored and left in storage. If you wait too long to report it there is usually no evidence of anything actually occurring, thus a case is difficult if not impossible.
Do you want criminals to go free or do you want innocent people put in prison? Some people would allow 10 criminals to go free over 1 innocent person wrongly convicted.
To be honest, merely being a suspect in any criminal investigation (as in, you are arrested but found to be entirely unrelated and therefore released) [i]will[/i] haunt you. At least, that's the case in the United States, I don't know about other countries. See, when an employer does a background check on you, and you've been arrested for anything, it will show up. They tell you that, hey, it's okay because you're totally not the guy they're looking for, but... no, that arrest for a felony is never, ever going to go away. Certain things are just going to be too big of a black mark to overlook, like a rape accusation. It's not really the employer's fault, look at it from that angle, this person very well could be some asshole who "slipped through the cracks" or there wasn't enough evidence, and now they're sitting there in front of you. Do you have female employees? That rape arrest is pretty scary looking, how would it look if you [i]knowingly[/i] hired this person and they assaulted a coworker? Oh, imagine the lawsuits with that...
Just a little food for thought there.
[QUOTE=deadoon;42288373]
Do you want criminals to go free or do you want innocent people put in prison? Some people would allow 10 criminals to go free over 1 innocent person wrongly convicted.[/QUOTE]
wtf did i just read
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;42288504]To be honest, merely being a suspect in any criminal investigation (as in, you are arrested but found to be entirely unrelated and therefore released) [i]will[/i] haunt you. At least, that's the case in the United States, I don't know about other countries. See, when an employer does a background check on you, and you've been arrested for anything, it will show up. They tell you that, hey, it's okay because you're totally not the guy they're looking for, but... no, that arrest for a felony is never, ever going to go away. Certain things are just going to be too big of a black mark to overlook, like a rape accusation. It's not really the employer's fault, look at it from that angle, this person very well could be some asshole who "slipped through the cracks" or there wasn't enough evidence, and now they're sitting there in front of you. Do you have female employees? That rape arrest is pretty scary looking, how would it look if you [i]knowingly[/i] hired this person and they assaulted a coworker? Oh, imagine the lawsuits with that...
Just a little food for thought there.[/QUOTE]
wait what? surely it only shows up with prior convictions not just if you've been arrested or not. that's ridiculous
[QUOTE=jaegerisacunt;42288526]wtf did i just read[/QUOTE]
That is the way some people think. I never even tried to explain the course of logic.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42288533]wait what? surely it only shows up with prior convictions not just if you've been arrested or not. that's ridiculous[/QUOTE]
Full background checks show your arrest record as well, you can have that expunged though, but that costs a whole lot of time, going in front of a judge and depending on the judge you may still be denied if they do not think your reason is good enough, and go through the whole process again.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42288533]wait what? surely it only shows up with prior convictions not just if you've been arrested or not. that's ridiculous[/QUOTE][QUOTE=deadoon;42288545]Full background checks show your arrest record as well, you can have that expunged though.[/QUOTE]Most people don't know that they can expunge their arrest record, though. Even if you were going to do that, a lot of times it can be very, very difficult and take a ridiculous amount of time.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;42288504]To be honest, merely being a suspect in any criminal investigation (as in, you are arrested but found to be entirely unrelated and therefore released) [i]will[/i] haunt you. At least, that's the case in the United States, I don't know about other countries. See, when an employer does a background check on you, and you've been arrested for anything, it will show up. They tell you that, hey, it's okay because you're totally not the guy they're looking for, but... no, that arrest for a felony is never, ever going to go away. Certain things are just going to be too big of a black mark to overlook, like a rape accusation. It's not really the employer's fault, look at it from that angle, this person very well could be some asshole who "slipped through the cracks" or there wasn't enough evidence, and now they're sitting there in front of you. Do you have female employees? That rape arrest is pretty scary looking, how would it look if you [i]knowingly[/i] hired this person and they assaulted a coworker? Oh, imagine the lawsuits with that...
Just a little food for thought there.[/QUOTE]
My brother had arson on his background checks for years due to a court error, he was never even accused or suspected of it. He sure had a fun time trying to rent a house.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;42287828]I'm guessing your challenge is void now right
Grass, if the women who made the reports were proven to be lying, why did your friends stay in jail? Are you sure you aren't simply refusing to believe that maybe your friends did actually rape someone? You don't go to jail on an allegation alone - it needs to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. There isn't some massive exception to this for rape cases, despite what MRAs may have told you.
And the 1 in 4 thing isn't false if you include any form of sexual assault, not just penetration[/QUOTE]
Actually rape cases in many countries do not follow the typical innocent until proven guilty. In part because of the huge social stigma associated with being raped, the trauma fear, and the fact that at times they are relatively hard to prove. As such a victims allegation is often considered sufficient and the accused has to be proven innocent as opposed to be proven guilty.
Some countries want to expand this to domestic abuse somewhat as well.
Not always the case, but in some national legal systems rape does exist as an exception - but that's also because the false rape claims tend to be very low.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42288533]wait what? surely it only shows up with prior convictions not just if you've been arrested or not. that's ridiculous[/QUOTE]
Many sex offender list will list people who have been charged with an offense and will not update or remove the listing if it's proven false.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;42286644]Well to be fair MRAs treat this like the biggest problem in the world despite:[/QUOTE]
That's still pretty terrible, though.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;42286644]Well to be fair MRAs treat this like the biggest problem in the world despite:[/QUOTE]
Issues like this would be hard to record, especially if the men are actually convicted of rape.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42286560]Hear that skittering, insectile noise? That's the MRAs crawling from the woodwork. The very mention of the words 'false rape' fills them with obscene activity.[/QUOTE]
Go back to tumblr.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42288181]well, i think someone that makes false rape allegations must have something a bit fuckey in their head, so maybe make them go to counseling and shit like that. i'm not sure how the problem of the social stigma could ever be solved[/QUOTE]
I'd guess that a lot of it is just digging yourself into a hole and not knowing when to stop digging
[editline]24th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;42289086]Issues like this would be hard to record, especially if the men are actually convicted of rape.[/QUOTE]
By that logic you could claim that false accusations of every single other crime are [i]even higher[/i]. But that would be dumb, because you can only go by what you know for sure.
They should sentence accusers to at least double of what the accused got or potentially gotten. In fact, i think this should apply to any crime case if there's enough evidence to prove the accuser is totally bullshitting.
The crime here is not the point. False accusations and convictions of [i]any[/i] kind are terrible, and people who dismiss such cases (for whatever reason) are equally terrible.
[QUOTE=Alyx;42291069]They should sentence accusers to at least double of what the accused got or potentially got. In fact, this should apply to any crime case if there's enough evidence to prove the accuser is totally bullshitting.[/QUOTE]
And what happens if the court determines that the accuser was not the victim of a crime, when they were, but had insufficient evidence of it? Punish them anyways, because there is a chance that they were lying? Well if you do that, less people will report crime overall unless they have a solid case, thus getting no support for any mental or physical problems caused by the crime.
Also by putting a punishment, if there was a false claim, it makes it less likely they would tell the truth for fear of punishment.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42288330][B]that's not true at all. in fact from what i've seen it's generally the inverse, the women are thought to either be liars, or they were asking for it, or they totally wanted it and changed their mind afterwards.[/B] why do you think so many rapes go unreported? because for alot of women the social stigma is against THEM. apart from that i agree with you, although i think just therapy rather than any community service[/QUOTE]
I just re-read this, you just said the same thing as me, and proved my point hypocritically. Any scrutiny of a person claiming to be a rape victim ends up being called out on as being misogynistic, you even just said that yourself by claiming those points while calling it wrong. How did I not notice that earlier...
[QUOTE=Alyx;42291069]They should sentence accusers to at least double of what the accused got or potentially gotten. In fact, i think this should apply to any crime case if there's enough evidence to prove the accuser is totally bullshitting.[/QUOTE]
what a stupid idea. if i falsely accused someone of murder i should get 2 life sentences?
[editline]24th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=deadoon;42291091]I just re-read this, you just said the same thing as me, and proved my point hypocritically. Any scrutiny of a person claiming to be a rape victim ends up being called out on as being misogynistic, you even just said that yourself by claiming those points while calling it wrong. How did I not notice that earlier...[/QUOTE]
wait what? you're saying that when people try to scrutinize a rape victim they get branded misogynistic, when i'm saying it's the other way around, that it's the rape victim that faces bullshit rather than the scrutinizer
[QUOTE=Alyx;42291069]They should sentence accusers to at least double of what the accused got or potentially gotten. In fact, i think this should apply to any crime case if there's enough evidence to prove the accuser is totally bullshitting.[/QUOTE]
So someone who falsely claims that someone else is a murderer should be executed?
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