• Pope Francis: It's 'terrible' children taught they can choose gender
    123 replies, posted
[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;50819635]That's not really indoctrinating children, though. That text is basically just giving the two leading beliefs in American society without really taking a stance.[/QUOTE] With the language used its pretty clearly trying to influence children away from non-christian theories.
[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;50819635]That's not really indoctrinating children, though. That text is basically just giving the two leading beliefs in American society without really taking a stance. [editline]2nd August 2016[/editline] If this is "horrific and completely unacceptable by modern standards", then discrimination against trans people wouldn't be so widespread. And I'd hardly call this "horrific". "Horrific" would be encouraging straight up lynching trans people.[/QUOTE] its a science textbook, there is no belief there is only scientific theory. the paragraph highlighted even goes as far as discredits science and scientists as those who shun the bible, which is to frame them as being wicked [editline]2nd August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Scorpo;50819780]Are kids actually taught they can choose their gender? I'm just wondering, living on a fairly isolated and backwards island when it comes to this sort of stuff.[/QUOTE] i'd imagine in a state that doesn't have a regressive sex-ed/health class kids in highschool might be exposed to the concepts, but probably not anywhere else. my school's health class was a joke with it being filled with horny freshmen and no real issues, still it was at least able to talk about condoms and contraceptives as well as touching on diet
I'll argue most children below 10 are probably too naive and well, childlike to really be mature and make decisions that could affect them the rest of their lives like being brought up as a different gender. That's not denying real transgender kids exist, but most kids just don't have the power to see the big picture and make that decision. Most parents know this, which is why unfortunately sometimes they decide that they can make the decisions for the kid and take actions associated with the opposite gender at face value to mean that their kid is transgender. [editline]2nd August 2016[/editline] so yeah, he's kind of right, but we're giving his words a lot more credit than they deserve. After all, this is a church who was until recently still hostile towards homosexuals and, despite Francis's mission to be more accepting, still holds a lot of traditionalists who would be homophobic and transphobic. So I truly doubt he was making some complicated statement on gender identity here.
[QUOTE=Thlis;50819553]:snip:[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure he's being facetious..
[QUOTE=skatehawk11;50818447]I agree but not for religious reasons. (This is all i'm posting) [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Why reply" - Novangel))[/highlight][/QUOTE] that ban is clearly out of bias, and im trans people can have an opinion that the majority thinks is wrong(or in this case possibly ignorant), and banning them really isn't the way to get them to change their minds. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Derailing" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Rainboo;50819551]I don't really get the reason for this ban? The guy just stated his opinion but just stated that he wouldn't proceed so that it won't turn into a shitshow. Honestly I am inclined to agree after seeing all the bullshit that the concept of "gender fluid" spawned. You have these people insulting parents because they let their male kids play with "boy toys" and female kids with "girl toys". You have people who unironically ask "DID YOU JUST ASSUME MY GENDER?". You get these parents making their otherwise normal male kids wear skirts and headbands and shit to ingrain the concept of being gender fluid in their minds from a young age(where they're most likely not thinking about that shit yet). It might specifically be the combination of the concept and tumblr SJWs but those people are getting more and more prominent today it seems.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Cocacoladude;50819675]Bullshit ban reason. That said, I agree because it feels like a fucking fad or some shit.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=space1;50820219]that ban is clearly out of bias, and im trans people can have an opinion that the majority thinks is wrong(or in this case possibly ignorant), and banning them really isn't the way to get them to change their minds.[/QUOTE] He's a threadshitting shitposter and the mod team has the right to take any precautionary measures [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Derailing" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=space1;50820219]that ban is clearly out of bias, and im trans people can have an opinion that the majority thinks is wrong(or in this case possibly ignorant), and banning them really isn't the way to get them to change their minds.[/QUOTE] Not really. To enter a thread and say "This is my opinion and I am not defending it" is only threadshitting. This is a forum, not a blog.
[QUOTE=Judas;50818868]pope says something nice: "what an amazing person and good advocate best pope ever!!!" pope says something horrific and completely unacceptable by modern standards: "well nobody's perfect"[/QUOTE] I mean he's really cool though, what do you expect people to do, call him a Hitler all of a sudden?
I hope this trend toward believing transgender 'gender vs sex' psuedoscience goes away. I think society will ultimately refrain from moving completely on this issue which is great, because if we go that far I wonder what will be accepted next? [b]Trans-racial?[/b] [b]Trans-species?[/b] How obnoxious can our society become? Honestly if you look into the mirror and feel you are in the wrong body you have a serious mental illness and probably psychosis, which is not treated by butchering the body away with a fake sex change that leaves scars and not real organs. If we are claiming 'gender' is in the brain, why are we changing a persons SEX to fix that? It makes no sense and literally contradicts itself. If the purpose of the sex change is to change a persons perception or depression, then that is something that should be looked into fixing without these insane surgeries that are covered by insurance. It's a mental issue, and the people who fall into that line of thinking obviously have developed a way of thinking that is not healthy. All for inclusion LBG, but the more we expand it, the more extreme it has gotten, and the more bullshit the science claims have become. I'll believe psychology studies when we know how a dream works first, or even a basic understanding of primal functions, before we claim to have knowledge & deep understanding of something as complex as 'gender' in the brain. [QUOTE=skatehawk11;50818447]I agree but not for religious reasons. (This is all i'm posting) [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Why reply" - Novangel))[/highlight][/QUOTE] Hey look, a transgender mod that forcefully keeps this section of facepunch secluded to only people who agree with him. How typical. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Have a break." - Bradyns))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Redcow17;50820432]I hope this trend toward believing transgender 'gender vs sex' psuedoscience goes away. I think society will ultimately refrain from moving completely on this issue which is great, because if we go that far I wonder what will be accepted next? All for inclusion GBL, but the more we expand it, the more extreme it has gotten, and the more bullshit the science claims have become. I'll believe psychology studies when we know how a dream works first.[/QUOTE] Labeling actual scientific evidence as pseudoscience does not make it pseudoscience, it makes for a poor argument. Basing your acceptance of decades of peer reviewed study on our knowledge of one (actually extensively studied) phenomenon reeks of the 'I don't like the facts so I'm just going deny them' rhetoric that is too often dressed up in pretty language and given a weak justification, such as the offending subject supposedly being 'just too extreme' or invalidating an entire field of study by bringing up a loosely, if at all, connected factor. As someone once said, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? [QUOTE=Redcow17;50820432]Hey look, a transgender mod that forcefully keeps this section of facepunch secluded to only people who agree with him. How typical.[/QUOTE] What must it be like to live in a fantasy world where the transgender gestapo is destroying your precious bastion of free speech by banning shitposters on an internet forum.
[QUOTE=Jacen;50819907]With the language used its pretty clearly trying to influence children away from non-christian theories.[/QUOTE] Exactly, creationism should not be taught at school because it did not happen, science class must teach things that can be proven using the scientific method, nothing else.
[QUOTE=Redcow17;50820432]I hope this trend toward believing transgender 'gender vs sex' psuedoscience goes away. I think society will ultimately refrain from moving completely on this issue which is great, because if we go that far I wonder what will be accepted next? [B]Trans-racial?[/B] [B]Trans-species?[/B] How obnoxious can our society become? Honestly if you look into the mirror and feel you are in the wrong body you have a serious mental illness and probably psychosis, which is not treated by butchering the body away with a fake sex change that leaves scars and not real organs. If we are claiming 'gender' is in the brain, why are we changing a persons SEX to fix that? It makes no sense and literally contradicts itself. If the purpose of the sex change is to change a persons perception or depression, then that is something that should be looked into fixing without these insane surgeries that are covered by insurance. It's a mental issue, and the people who fall into that line of thinking obviously have developed a way of thinking that is not healthy. All for inclusion LBG, but the more we expand it, the more extreme it has gotten, and the more bullshit the science claims have become. I'll believe psychology studies when we know how a dream works first, or even a basic understanding of primal functions, before we claim to have knowledge & deep understanding of something as complex as 'gender' in the brain. Hey look, a transgender mod that forcefully keeps this section of facepunch secluded to only people who agree with him. How typical.[/QUOTE] Why is it pseudoscience? We don't know everything about the universe (nor will we ever) but that's not an excuse to de-legitimize the study of it by calling it "pseudoscience". Science is about developing your understanding of how things work through extensive testing and research, not understanding how it all works from the very beginning.
[QUOTE=OrDnAs;50820237]He's a threadshitting shitposter and the mod team has the right to take any precautionary measures[/QUOTE] nah dude, it's the mod Illuminati and they are preventing free speech. Watch me as I derail the thread over a ban I do not understand.
[QUOTE=Redcow17;50820432]I hope this trend toward believing transgender 'gender vs sex' psuedoscience goes away. [/QUOTE] Pretty sure psychology is based in the scientific method. You could get away with calling it a pre-science, but it's definitely not pseudoscience.
[QUOTE=Redcow17;50820432]I hope this trend toward believing transgender 'gender vs sex' psuedoscience goes away. I think society will ultimately refrain from moving completely on this issue which is great, because if we go that far I wonder what will be accepted next? [b]Trans-racial?[/b] [b]Trans-species?[/b] How obnoxious can our society become? Honestly if you look into the mirror and feel you are in the wrong body you have a serious mental illness and probably psychosis, which is not treated by butchering the body away with a fake sex change that leaves scars and not real organs. [/QUOTE] There are mental illnesses that possibly make you believe you are a different gender. But they are temporal, they last few months. That's why before psychologists let you go through with sex change you have to wait a year before doing things that can't be changed back. To rule these illnesses out. [QUOTE=Redcow17;50820432]If we are claiming 'gender' is in the brain, why are we changing a persons SEX to fix that? It makes no sense and literally contradicts itself. If the purpose of the sex change is to change a persons perception or depression, then that is something that should be looked into fixing without these insane surgeries that are covered by insurance. It's a mental issue, and the people who fall into that line of thinking obviously have developed a way of thinking that is not healthy.[/QUOTE] If it's the brain, how are you going to fix it? Pseudo therapy that tries brainwashing you into thinking you are not trans FAILS. That's the thing. You can't CHANGE your "inside" gender. That's why being trans is not mental illness. You can't treat it the way you would say depression or psychosis. We can't make operation on the brain and flip the switch either. We can however change the way you look to make it match. And that's what we're doing.
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;50819224]could you post some studies that support the existence of nonbinary genders being a biological phenomenon and not a cultural one? i would caution against using people's self describing profiles as indicators of how prevalent hybrid brainsexes are. there are far more factors in how someone may feel in that field than biological reasons. psychologically, a man may prefer the traditional roles, iconography, and aesthetics associated with women but not experience any of the biological dysphoria. they may identify more with the sociological idea of a woman but feel perfectly comfortable in their skin. or, perhaps they are like me, where they find themselves associating with others who are wrestling with their gender identity and start finding themselves questioning their own when they hadn't before due to that association. it is a complicated subject and we have only barely scratched the surface of it. it would be prudent to allow people to do what makes them comfortable without making statements of absolutes in either direction.[/QUOTE] who gives two shits whether someone's personal identity is "objective" or not?
[QUOTE=Redcow17;50820432]If we are claiming 'gender' is in the brain, why are we changing a persons SEX to fix that? It's a mental issue, and the people who fall into that line of thinking obviously have developed a way of thinking that is not healthy.[/QUOTE] you don't think that was the very first thing doctors tried? there is no "curative" mental therapy for trans people whose results are anything more than achieving a deep-seated repression. if it worked at all, people would probably elect to do it, because transitioning is a pain in the ass no matter your age. but it's the only thing that works! given the choice of eternally being a depressed zombie and an expensive and painful journey to happiness, people choose the latter.
[QUOTE=skatehawk11;50818447]I agree but not for religious reasons. (This is all i'm posting) [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Why reply" - Novangel))[/highlight][/QUOTE] Im seriously confused as to why this warranted a ban. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Derailing, not the place to ask about bans." - Craptasket))[/highlight]
[quote]The pope said he wanted to conclude his remarks by reflecting on this: "We are living a moment of annihilation of man as image of God."[/quote] This sounds like a good thing though
[QUOTE=CruelAddict;50820747]Im seriously confused as to why this warranted a ban.[/QUOTE] He made a drive by post, posting anything you're not willing to back up or not going into it when asked is why reply lol [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Derailing" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=phygon;50819680]That's simply not true. There are a lot of issues with that text book. 1. Religion should absolutely not be in science textbooks to begin with 2. They use negative language to make the scientists appear in the wrong: "Disregard the bible", "Everything got here by itself" "guess", etc. 3. They use the term "evolutionists" to imply that evolution is a belief[/QUOTE] You can't legally nor ethically prohibit religious organizations to fund and run their own private science departments, which results in them creating science textbooks and adding in religious beliefs and stances.
[QUOTE=Levithan;50820713]who gives two shits whether someone's personal identity is "objective" or not?[/QUOTE] people who may perhaps be interested in examining gender and identity from a more psychological, biological, and sociological perspective? it seems like a fairly interesting area of study and to know more about how it works and what influences it brings greater understanding of what makes humans tic. the objectivity vs subjectivity of gender would also pose a number of philosophical questions as well, i imagine. as i said we as a society should be open to and accepting of what makes people comfortable with themselves, but we should also continue examining what gender and identity are.
[QUOTE=CroGamer002;50820762]You can't legally nor ethically prohibit religious organizations to fund and run their own private science departments, which results in them creating science textbooks and adding in religious beliefs and stances.[/QUOTE] Those are books intended for children going to school. Personally, I believe that teaching religion to children under a certain age is UNBELIEVABLY unethical, but at the very least they could keep that shit in church and out of the classroom.
To avoid long argument that would derail this thread and it would go nowhere, I'd just say I disagree and add that teaching religion to children isn't wrong and it's just part of raising a child.
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;50818701]You can only expect the Catholic church to change so quickly...[/QUOTE] The Catholic Church will never change on subjects like this, to do so they'd have to pretty much throw the bible in the bin and at that point they might as well just disband (I'm totally not against the Catholic Church disbanding, but they'll never do that)
Can't believe I agree with the Pope on something, for once.
[QUOTE=CroGamer002;50820815]To avoid long argument that would derail this thread and it would go nowhere, I'd just say I disagree and add that teaching religion to children isn't wrong and it's just part of raising a child.[/QUOTE] Teaching a kid religion is teaching a kid to believe in imaginary friends, I don't see how that's ethical, you should teach your kids to think for themselves and look at the scientific evidence.
[QUOTE=Redcow17;50820432]I hope this trend toward believing transgender 'gender vs sex' psuedoscience goes away. [/QUOTE] Oh look the old "my bigotry doesn't accept science that goes against my horrible beliefs therefore it is pseudoscience". [QUOTE=Redcow17;50820432] I wonder what will be accepted next? Trans-racial? Trans-species?. [/QUOTE] Classic slippery slope argument. Gay marriage, what next people marrying goats? [QUOTE=Redcow17;50820432] Honestly if you look into the mirror and feel you are in the wrong body you have a serious mental illness and probably psychosis. [/QUOTE] It isn't psychosis or any other form of mental illness, both the DSM in America, the NHS in the UK and pretty much every expert in the field says being transgender isn't a mental illness so therefore it isn't a mental illness, if the experts in what is and isn't a mental illness say it isn't it isn't. Your opinion on the matter is meaningless, you are not an expert. If it was a mental illness don't you think it would actually be treated that way and that be the first thing psychiatrists try, instead of jumping straight to developing treatments/procedures just for trans people. I will even go through the difference by comparing it to an actually mental illness which people think is the same as being trans, body dysmorphic disorder. In body dysmorphic disorder the person sees something that isn't there or something that is there but highly exaggerated, so a form of delusion. the treatment involves getting them to see that what the believe isn't real which is highly effective. They have tried treating it the same way as how trans people are treated, so for example if it was a tiny skin imperfection they would treat the skin imperfection, all that happened was they moved it to a different tiny or non existent perfection. Now with transgender people, in the case of a pre transition trans woman, she knows her body is male, so there is no delusion, she just feels female and her male body and/or genitals cause her great discomfort (dysphoria). There is no delusion there as they see how their body actually is and that is the cause of the discomfort. Treating her by saying she is male and she should accept herself actually makes things worse unlike body dysmorphia, it's as effective as gay conversion therapy. Now actually believing her and prescribing hormones and/or surgery actually treats the dysphoria, it doesn't move to anything else like in body dysmprhoia and they live happy and productive lives. I will also post this further proving it isn't a mental illness: [url]http://time.com/4424589/being-transgender-is-not-a-mental-disorder-study/[/url] [QUOTE=Redcow17;50820432]If we are claiming 'gender' is in the brain, why are we changing a persons SEX to fix that? It makes no sense and literally contradicts itself. If the purpose of the sex change is to change a persons perception or depression, then that is something that should be looked into fixing without these insane surgeries that are covered by insurance. [/QUOTE] It's pretty much scientific fact the transgender people have brains that match the sex they identify as. Differences in white matter: [url]http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956(10)00325-0/abstract[/url] Differences in grey matter: [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2754583/[/url] [url]http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956%2810%2900158-5/abstract[/url] Differences in the hypothalamus: [url]http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/18/8/1900.long[/url] Differences in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus [url]http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/131/12/3132.long[/url] Here's an image (that was posted by someone on a different thread) showing the differences: [IMG]https://lizdaybyday.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/mtf_brain_scan_differences.png[/IMG] We even have an idea on the genes possibly responsible for this: [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7689007.stm[/url] [url]http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jsm.12398/abstract[/url] This isn't just psychological this is also biological, observable and measurable biological science.
[QUOTE=eirexe;50820832]Teaching a kid religion is teaching a kid to believe in imaginary friends, I don't see how that's ethical, you should teach your kids to think for themselves and look at the scientific evidence.[/QUOTE] i agree it is best to teach your kids to think for themselves. that is why i would teach mine to not only look at the scientific evidence, but to examine the vast variety of cultures and beliefs this planet has to offer, as well. there is absolutely nothing wrong with being spiritual or religious, it has been an extremely important part of the human experience since its dawn. to shun it like it is a cancerous tumor would be to cut off the nose to spite the face. yes, many terrible acts and much ignorance has been wrought by religion, but so has much of our philosophy, art, culture, and even science. it can bring people meaning, hope, drive, direction, and comfort. of course, religion and spirituality isn't necessary for all of these things for all people, but for some it greatly helps. your post reads similar to that of one who rejects an established scientific theory because it conflicts with their religion. i just hope if your child came to the conclusion they believe in a god that you wouldn't reject them. [editline]3rd August 2016[/editline] to ignore the more experiential, subjective, and immaterial side of our conscious and unconscious experience is to ignore half of our existence.
[QUOTE=Ripmax;50820964]It isn't psychosis or any other form of mental illness[/QUOTE] Just a note. There are mental illnesses that will make you think you are trapped in a different body among other things. I'm not saying being trans is one of them but there are actual mental illnesses like that.
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