• Pope Francis: It's 'terrible' children taught they can choose gender
    123 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;50821219]Just a note. There are mental illnesses that will make you think you are trapped in a different body among other things. I'm not saying being trans is one of them but there are actual mental illnesses like that.[/QUOTE] Trans people from what I've seen don't think they are "trapped in the wrong body" more "I'm not trapped in the wrong body but some of my features are of the wrong sex". I actually remember someone on reddit asking trans people if they could swap bodies with each other, would they? The answer was pretty much a no, my body is fine just some of my features developed wrong. I actually have some personal experience with this, I am intersex, I am undergoing medical treatment to change waht male parts/developments I have to female ones, as much as humanly possible at least. So me saying I am fine with my body just some parts of it developed not how I wanted is very different from I am trapped in the wrong body. The former is how it seems trans people feel too.
[QUOTE=eirexe;50820832]Teaching a kid religion is teaching a kid to believe in imaginary friends, I don't see how that's ethical, you should teach your kids to think for themselves and look at the scientific evidence.[/QUOTE] science doesn't really disprove or prove the concept of a god though. saying "think for yourselves and look at the scientific evidence" does nothing in terms of religious belief because religious scientists are a thing. religion is covered by philosophy, and its disingenuous to claim that scientific evidence somehow disproves the existence of god because you can't even test that in the first place. religion is important to human history, culture, society, institutions, art, music, literature, philosophy, etc. to raise children without that knowledge is essentially raising a kid without teaching them philosophy
Still, religion should not be taught as an alternative to science, it should - as it in many places is - be it's own class aka religious studies.
[QUOTE=Ripmax;50821249]Trans people from what I've seen don't think they are "trapped in the wrong body" more "I'm not trapped in the wrong body but some of my features are of the wrong sex". I actually remember someone on reddit asking trans people if they could swap bodies with each other, would they? The answer was pretty much a no, my body is fine just some of my features developed wrong. I actually have some personal experience with this, I am intersex, I am undergoing medical treatment to change waht male parts/developments I have to female ones, as much as humanly possible at least. So me saying I am fine with my body just some parts of it developed not how I wanted is very different from I am trapped in the wrong body. The former is how it seems trans people feel too.[/QUOTE] That's why I said "among other things"? I didn't want to go into too much details. The point was: there are actual mental illnesses that can make you think you are trans. But they pass within months, one of the reasons why the sex change procedure takes so long.
Don't comment on other peoples' bans, or you will join them. If they want to appeal, that's what the RC is for. You jumping in to complain about and/or praise the ban only derails the thread. Don't reply to this post, or you will be banned.
I don't think children should be able to decide to change their sex when at a young age. I've heard of a child that was 9 years old being given hormone supplements by their parents. No idea what country it was. No problem once they've passed puberty. But they shouldn't be playing with their future at such a young age [editline]3rd August 2016[/editline] Oh shit I posted this while browsing page 1 I didn't see BDA's post oerr
If you think pope Francis will be an 'enabler' in said discussion, you're wrong. Pope Francis has a point though: what better way to 'manipulate' kids than by screwing with their education 'material'. I don't believe in gender choice after birth, no matter what empirical 'evidence' you throw at me. But that's also me not trying to impose any ideology unto others. Pope Francis was referring to schools and 'manipulated' textbooks that teach kids they can swap their gender upon xyz reasoning, he wasn't referring to the transgender issue specifically. And if specialists show proof/evidence that transgender biological tendency can be spooted via brains scans, then why do they treat it as a choice, and even worse, teach it as a choice if it isn't? Pope Fracis' writings are not a direct attack against transgenders, but speaks of the highest type of [B]perversion[/B] of gender. So, do your biological testing and show me proof, but don't show up in my son's school with your filthy concocted bullshit textbooks and teach him he can be a girl if he wants it badly. And if out of mood, 'she' can switch back to 'he' because of xyz discovered benefits. That's personality manipulation and perversion of character by my standards...
Is it something that should be taught, in time I'm sure people will know themselves.
[QUOTE=Dr. Haxx;50822885]I don't believe in gender choice after birth, no matter what empirical 'evidence' you throw at me. But that's also me not trying to impose any ideology unto others.[/quote] So you basically just said that you will shut down any evidence no matter what? Doesn't that equal to basically closing your ears and ignoring the argument? [QUOTE=Dr. Haxx;50822885]Pope Francis was referring to schools and 'manipulated' textbooks that teach kids they can swap their gender upon xyz reasoning, he wasn't referring to the transgender issue specifically.[/quote] Good thing those text books are not a thing that exists? [QUOTE=Dr. Haxx;50822885]And if specialists show proof/evidence that transgender biological tendency can be spooted via brains scans, then why do they treat it as a choice, and even worse, teach it as a choice if it isn't?[/quote] Because forcing people into operations is a terrible thing to do and must be something they would need to agree on their own? [QUOTE=Dr. Haxx;50822885]Pope Fracis' writings are not a direct attack against transgenders, but speaks of the highest type of [B]perversion[/B] of gender.[/quote] What does that even mean? How can you pervert a concept? Deviation from it's standard practices? [QUOTE=Dr. Haxx;50822885] So, do your biological testing and show me proof, but don't show up in my son's school with your filthy concocted bullshit textbooks and teach him he can be a girl if he wants it badly. And if out of mood, 'she' can switch back to 'he' because of xyz discovered benefits.[/quote] Again, there are no textbooks that say that your son could magically flip genders. There aren't even any benefits for being transgender, besides peace of mind, and even that has problem with the society fucking your shit up afterwards because you have "perverted your gender", or some other bullshit. Also, even if your son was to make the decision, that would be their decision, not yours. [QUOTE=Dr. Haxx;50822885]That's personality manipulation and perversion of character by my standards...[/QUOTE] Your standards make no sense.
[QUOTE=Redcow17;50820432]I wonder what will be accepted next? [b]Trans-racial?[/b] [b]Trans-species?[/b][/QUOTE] Well, given that there's people who are intersex, and people who are trans often have brain structures closer to their gender than their sex (like Ripmax posted), it shouldn't be too hard to understand that people aren't always born distinctly as one sex or with a gender that matches their sex. On the other hand, there's not really any mental basis for race, just outward physical features and disease rates. The only way you could be born as the "wrong" race is if you're albino, and even then that only affects your melanin levels and eyesight, not your facial structure or disease tolerance. And being trans-species goes against all known biological knowledge, since you would need to have the genes of another species in your own genes. [QUOTE=Dr. Haxx;50822885]If you think pope Francis will be an 'enabler' in said discussion, you're wrong. Pope Francis has a point though: what better way to 'manipulate' kids than by screwing with their education 'material'. I don't believe in gender choice after birth, no matter what empirical 'evidence' you throw at me. But that's also me not trying to impose any ideology unto others. Pope Francis was referring to schools and 'manipulated' textbooks that teach kids they can swap their gender upon xyz reasoning, he wasn't referring to the transgender issue specifically. And if specialists show proof/evidence that transgender biological tendency can be spooted via brains scans, then why do they treat it as a choice, and even worse, teach it as a choice if it isn't? Pope Fracis' writings are not a direct attack against transgenders, but speaks of the highest type of [B]perversion[/B] of gender. So, do your biological testing and show me proof, but don't show up in my son's school with your filthy concocted bullshit textbooks and teach him he can be a girl if he wants it badly. And if out of mood, 'she' can switch back to 'he' because of xyz discovered benefits. That's personality manipulation and perversion of character by my standards...[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure next to no one actually teaches that gender identity is a choice. It's just interpreted that way by conservative news outlets and organizations that don't understand the concept.
eh, I'm down with whatever makes people happy. The way that I've come to understand gender is as a personal identity thing and as a societal construct. If someone is born as a female, they're considered a girl/women (unless of course they decide they feel more comfortable being considered otherwise), and though we're working on changing it, in the past this has meant certain expectations will be placed on her. She will take a "girl's job", she'll wear certain types and colours, she'll act in a certain (usually demure, non-assertive) way, she'll be an equivacator, etc. While a person who is identified as male will be expected to take on more physical or "tough" jobs, dress and speak certain ways, act with a certain machismo, etc. I think the whole choosing gender "trend" is largely a revolt against the idea of gender itself. Having these societal ideals for what someone can or can't do, wear, feel, or act is a limiting narrative that millennials aren't comfortable with, and as much as gender equality is something that's being worked on, the greater goal should be to remove the barrier that's preventing equality between people in the first place, which in this instance is the very concept of gender. Though it might be claimed that it invalidates my point I do personally identify as what the Tumblr kids are calling "agender", I don't perscribe myself to either narrative. People refer to me with male pronouns and I'm down with that, I probably won't be getting one of those newfangled gender neutral IDs that Trudeau is introducing, but having that mental understanding with myself that I [I]can[/I] wear makeup if I want to, that I don't have to be the person who makes themselves look threatening to scare creeps off for any other reason than I'm tall and slightly imposing, etc. is an overall freeing feeling. I don't like the cards that I've been dealt in terms of what society expects of me, so I've chosen to simply disengage myself from the game entirely. That's my choice, and it's others too, so let people have their lives yknow.
This thread is Ban City, holy shit. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Offtopic - was warned" - Craptasket))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50823350]Would you argue against the choice of one's gender identity, and how would you argue against that? That just sounds to me like freedom.[/QUOTE] Even if the situation [I]were[/I] that conservative's nightmare of people going "Oh, today I'll feel like a girl, and tomorrow I'll choose to feel like a guy again", I wouldn't really have much issue with it. I'm just saying that things don't work that way. You can choose how to present yourself in terms of gender roles, and you can choose to go through whatever amount of transitioning you want. You just can't choose to change your gender identity, as far as I know. In my understanding, even genderfluid people are subject to their gender identity changing on its own rather than actively choosing to change their gender. Edit: Sort of like how homosexuality isn't a choice. Even if it were a choice, it would still be fine. It just isn't one.
Gender fluidity should be seen as a form of body modification, and frankly I believe people shouldn't be obstructed in their freedom to pursue something like that. I do however see problems with it, like age requirement to do it. Usually more intrusive body mods are +18 if not like 20, Idk. Not much other problems actually, minus intolerant groups, but I know this Pope wouldn't condone violence.
I agree with him, it's pretty fucked up people let their kids "choose" to be a girl or boy.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50823598]You are thinking of sex, e.g. biological gender: [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity"]Gender identity is one's personal experience of one's own gender.[/URL][/QUOTE] No I'm not? I'm not as well versed in this as I should be, but here's my understanding of terms and such: [B]Sex[/B]: whether you're physically male or female (or something inbetween). Obviously can't be chosen at birth, but you can transition to change it later. [B]Gender[/B]/[B]Gender Identity[/B]: whether you're mentally male or female (or something inbetween). Can't be chosen, although you can be in denial about it. [B]Gender Roles[/B]/[B]Gender Expression[/B]: mannerisms, behaviors, fashions, etc. that are associated with masculinity and femininity. Roles refers more to what's expected, while expression is how you personally act. [del]I probably should have said "in terms of gender expression" earlier rather than "in terms of gender roles"[/del] Gender Expression can definitely be chosen. And you can choose whether you transition and how much you do so. But transitioning doesn't change your gender identity, it changes your sex to more closely match your gender identity. [QUOTE=Bleach Qeef;50823743]I agree with him, it's pretty fucked up people let their kids "choose" to be a girl or boy.[/QUOTE] How so?
[QUOTE=Wii60;50818522]you dont choose a gender when your trans your forced into the decision or face mental anguish for life.[/QUOTE] i think everyone faces mental anguish for life.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50824507]Oh Sorry, I misread/misunderstood it, thought what you meant by guy and girl were sexes, my bad. You are right, in the same wikipedia article it says the core identity forms before the age of 4. That is to say it cant be chosen. However, chooosing is the wrong word here. Yes, you cant "choose" who you are, but this ought to be common knowledge now, not a debatable topic. You can choose the roles and expressions to an extent. I guess we are agreeing here now. However, I also dont think there are people who go ahead and "choose" how they feel about themselves. That is why I believe what is meant when people show their discomfort at people choosing their gender, is their discomfort at the people who are expressing their gender, or lack thereof or whatever, and not conform to norms. Because I really dont think people are here caring about other people's mental well-beings, especially when its none of their business to judge that, since they are no mental health experts. This entire movement against people expressing themselves is just upsetting. If there are people out there who are in a mentally fluid state and the acceptance of trans folks makes this spread and turn this into a mental health crisis, I really dont know about it, get me up to speed with source material then. If not, there is no problem IMO.[/QUOTE] Yeah, I was kind of confused as to why we were even arguing. I also agree with you on the expression thing. People should be free to express themselves, and society has a habit of inhibiting people's will to do that. Now that I'm thinking about it: people also naturally feel more masculine or feminine, and naturally like certain gender roles and expressions more. As natural as one could feel towards an arbitrary set of mannerisms, anyway. People just choose how much and in what ways they're willing to express themselves. Mostly the "in what ways" part. "I like dresses" isn't a choice, but "I'll wear dresses [I]this[/I] often" and "I'll wear [I]these[/I] types of dresses with [I]these[/I] types of clothing" are. And I agree, people shouldn't be discouraged from doing so.
[QUOTE=Aphtonites;50818703]Honestly, the whole topic of gender identity is something children should be introduced to with a very, VERY tiny grain of salt. Childhood is a time that's ripe for mistakes and misunderstandings to be made.[/QUOTE] My five year old niece knows I'm trans and she seems to understand I'm a girl just fine. It's her mother that gets all weird about it and can't seem to get my pronouns right if I'm not presenting as feminine. Ugh, sometimes a girl just wants to look like a masculine girl. [editline]4th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Redcow17;50820432]I hope this trend toward believing transgender 'gender vs sex' psuedoscience goes away. I think society will ultimately refrain from moving completely on this issue which is great, because if we go that far I wonder what will be accepted next? [b]Trans-racial?[/b] [b]Trans-species?[/b] How obnoxious can our society become? Honestly if you look into the mirror and feel you are in the wrong body you have a serious mental illness and probably psychosis, which is not treated by butchering the body away with a fake sex change that leaves scars and not real organs. If we are claiming 'gender' is in the brain, why are we changing a persons SEX to fix that? It makes no sense and literally contradicts itself. If the purpose of the sex change is to change a persons perception or depression, then that is something that should be looked into fixing without these insane surgeries that are covered by insurance. It's a mental issue, and the people who fall into that line of thinking obviously have developed a way of thinking that is not healthy. All for inclusion LBG, but the more we expand it, the more extreme it has gotten, and the more bullshit the science claims have become. I'll believe psychology studies when we know how a dream works first, or even a basic understanding of primal functions, before we claim to have knowledge & deep understanding of something as complex as 'gender' in the brain. Hey look, a transgender mod that forcefully keeps this section of facepunch secluded to only people who agree with him. How typical. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Have a break." - Bradyns))[/highlight][/QUOTE] I'm going to take this at face-value and assume you're being serious and give you a completely serious response without flaming you because I would like to educate those that maybe don't agree with you but are sitting on the fence. Your first point is that our gender identities are somehow rooted in pseudo-science despite [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders#Future_revisions_and_updates_.282013_and_beyond.29]Numerous[/url] [url=http://www.gmc-uk.org/guidance/28851.asp]scientific[/url] [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Statistical_Classification_of_Diseases_and_Related_Health_Problems]articles[/url] that state otherwise. Your next point is that somehow we're on the same level as someone who thinks they're black when they aren't, or that they're a wolf. The case here is that we identify and usually present ourselves as a gender we weren't assigned as at birth. This particular part of your argument is in fact a [url=https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope]logical fallacy[/url] and one of the most common ones I see in this type of debate; because it's easier to label us all as mentally incapable of accepting reality than actually agreeing with us because you're slightly weirded out by the fact that we exist. My gender is inherently a thing that I feel in my brain/mind, and I'm completely aware of reality (I was born intersex, but I have a penis so they just labelled me as male at birth). This, however, in no way makes me more acceptable or trans than anyone who was born male or female and transitions. I'm also non-op, which means I'm not going to be, as you put it, "butchering my body away with a 'fake sex change that leaves scars and not real organs'". Changing the body to match a person's ideal gender image is the easiest and most efficient way to treat gender dysphoria and many medical professionals in many countries agree with this. My depression pretty much went away once I started a course of estrogen and my body started changing and that in and of itself was the "real issue". What else do you expect us to do in therapy? Do you expect us to go through that whole "[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy]you're not really gay/trans[/url]" type of therapy because [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy#International_medical_views]it's not effective[/url]. Apart from all the surgery you think is insane because you could never see yourself wanting it (which is fine, most people are cis), do you think there's inherently something wrong with us based solely on how we present ourselves to society? Because I certainly don't. We're included in the LGBT community because we're all minorities, but it's certainly not a sexual thing. It's just how we're happy presenting and telling us we're just "gay men" or "butch women" is completely missing the point. Just because you find it hard to believe psychologists, using personal incredulity does not make your argument more valid, and the burden of proof is not on us to prove we exist and that there's nothing wrong with us. Giving us a loaded question like "explain how dreams work first" is completely off target and doesn't actually help us explain our gender any more than "this is the way I feel about myself". If you don't want to see me as a woman, then fine. But by your high school level of education about there only being "two genders and nothing else", I shouldn't exist, because I'm intersex. Yes, it's a complex thing to study, but treating us like there's something wrong with us makes us more likely to hide ourselves so that people can't study us, so do you see how harmful this viewpoint is? Oh and using ad hominem at the end of your statement is more likely to make people ignore or flame you. Mods: Please ban me if I'm breaking the rules for making a post like this, but I just hope to inform those and make the original poster of this comment do a bit of reflection.
[QUOTE=Aphtonites;50818703]Honestly, the whole topic of gender identity is something children should be introduced to with a very, VERY tiny grain of salt. Childhood is a time that's ripe for mistakes and misunderstandings to be made.[/QUOTE] I think children should be taught what transgender people are but not in a way that causes them to start questioning themselves too much. I don't think that this is something children need to really worry about till they are a bit older and we shouldn't pressure them with a choice just yet. The idea being that children will learn that changing gender is a "thing" so they don't end up with deep rooted set in stone veiws on the issue and thus less prone to bigotry. However it's not a question you should ASK children so to speak, a five year old probably would get a little confused if you asked them "Do you think you might actually be a boy instead of a girl?" I DID remember reading about one young kid who decided they wanted to be a girl but that was on their terms and unprompted, I think what I'm trying to say here is that much like taking a shit you shouldn't force the issue, just let it happen at it's own pace.
[QUOTE=thisguy123;50828034]I think children should be taught what transgender people are but not in a way that causes them to start questioning themselves too much. I don't think that this is something children need to really worry about till they are a bit older and we shouldn't pressure them with a choice just yet. The idea being that children will learn that changing gender is a "thing" so they don't end up with deep rooted set in stone veiws on the issue and thus less prone to bigotry. However it's not a question you should ASK children so to speak, a five year old probably would get a little confused if you asked them "Do you think you might actually be a boy instead of a girl?" I DID remember reading about one young kid who decided they wanted to be a girl but that was on their terms and unprompted, I think what I'm trying to say here is that much like taking a shit you shouldn't force the issue, just let it happen at it's own pace.[/QUOTE] and how old should they be before we teach them the full meaning of what it is to be trans? Because my niece is two and understands that I'm trans albeit a little crudely but she knows i wasnt assigned the female gender at birth and now im a girl. We start forming our own gender identity around the ages 5-7 according to a few of the psychs and doctors I've seen, which is conincidentally around the same time we start getting gender segregated. I was wearing girl's clothes sporadically for the first 21 years of my life.
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;50820986]i agree it is best to teach your kids to think for themselves. that is why i would teach mine to not only look at the scientific evidence, but to examine the vast variety of cultures and beliefs this planet has to offer, as well. there is absolutely nothing wrong with being spiritual or religious, it has been an extremely important part of the human experience since its dawn. to shun it like it is a cancerous tumor would be to cut off the nose to spite the face. yes, many terrible acts and much ignorance has been wrought by religion, but so has much of our philosophy, art, culture, and even science. it can bring people meaning, hope, drive, direction, and comfort. of course, religion and spirituality isn't necessary for all of these things for all people, but for some it greatly helps. your post reads similar to that of one who rejects an established scientific theory because it conflicts with their religion. i just hope if your child came to the conclusion they believe in a god that you wouldn't reject them. [editline]3rd August 2016[/editline] to ignore the more experiential, subjective, and immaterial side of our conscious and unconscious experience is to ignore half of our existence.[/QUOTE] To ignore scientific evidence is to ignore truth as we know it.
[QUOTE=Sylvie;50828242]and how old should they be before we teach them the full meaning of what it is to be trans? Because my niece is two and understands that I'm trans albeit a little crudely but she knows i wasnt assigned the female gender at birth and now im a girl. We start forming our own gender identity around the ages 5-7 according to a few of the psychs and doctors I've seen, [B]which is conincidentally around the same time we start getting gender segregated.[/B] I was wearing girl's clothes sporadically for the first 21 years of my life.[/QUOTE] Seven upwards sounds about right, if not then it should be around the time they also receive sex education. (No pun intended) I used the term "five year old" when what I really mean was "older than a toddler". When they are old enough to be self aware and aware of others to an extended degree. (More than just Another person) but still too young to know about deeper concepts. I think 3-5 was the age-span I was thinking of, that time when kids still haven't quite calibrated their moral compass and can end up making choices that upset people as opposed to just going for what they want. Also I find that boded part curious, do we form gender opinions because it becomes a topic? Are children segregated because they start making decisions based on gender now? Does one perhaps cause the other? It'd be interesting to know.
[QUOTE=thisguy123;50828301]Seven upwards sounds about right, if not then it should be around the time they also receive sex education. (No pun intended) I used the term "five year old" when what I really mean was "older than a toddler". When they are old enough to be self aware and aware of others to an extended degree. (More than just Another person) but still too young to know about deeper concepts. I think 3-5 was the age-span I was thinking of, that time when kids still haven't quite calibrated their moral compass and can end up making choices that upset people as opposed to just going for what they want. Also I find that boded part curious, do we form gender opinions because it becomes a topic? Are children segregated because they start making decisions based on gender now? Does one perhaps cause the other? It'd be interesting to know.[/QUOTE] Again, my niece knows about me and doesn't "question her own identity". And questioning their own identity and exploring themselves isn't such a dangerous thing anyway. They won't be allowed to start hormones until around 16-18 depending on their country of residence. All it means is that they'll be more aware of trans people instead of us being invisible like we are to the mainstream. Sex is not the same thing as gender, and as such should be treated as a separate thing. Gender presentation is probably the most important tool we, as trans people, have to make the world see us the way we want to be seen and isn't related to who we're attracted to in any shape or form. Sure some kids present one way and change that presentation as they grow, but some would prefer to just be seen as a guy or girl, and that's fine too. [editline]4th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Wazbat;50821760]I don't think children should be able to decide to change their sex when at a young age. I've heard of a child that was 9 years old being given hormone supplements by their parents. No idea what country it was. No problem once they've passed puberty. But they shouldn't be playing with their future at such a young age [editline]3rd August 2016[/editline] Oh shit I posted this while browsing page 1 I didn't see BDA's post oerr[/QUOTE] By their parents, yes. By a medical professional? No. I went through a puberty i didn't want because the doctors all said i wasn't presenting as feminine enough to meet their expectations. A lot has changed since then, and im on hormones now; but the fewer people who have to go through that, the better. [editline]4th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=thisguy123;50828301]Seven upwards sounds about right, if not then it should be around the time they also receive sex education. (No pun intended) I used the term "five year old" when what I really mean was "older than a toddler". When they are old enough to be self aware and aware of others to an extended degree. (More than just Another person) but still too young to know about deeper concepts. I think 3-5 was the age-span I was thinking of, that time when kids still haven't quite calibrated their moral compass and can end up making choices that upset people as opposed to just going for what they want. Also I find that boded part curious, do we form gender opinions because it becomes a topic? Are children segregated because they start making decisions based on gender now? Does one perhaps cause the other? It'd be interesting to know.[/QUOTE] We;re mostly taught about boys and girls being different about that time, and we get segregated during PE class, for using the facilities, and for various other things. I used to play with girls all the time and the adults treated me like i was different or weird. I didn't see myself as different or weird though, i just wished they'd understanded me. Never mind, all is well now.
[QUOTE=Sylvie;50828347]Again, my niece knows about me and doesn't "question her own identity". And questioning their own identity and exploring themselves isn't such a dangerous thing anyway. They won't be allowed to start hormones until around 16-18 depending on their country of residence. All it means is that they'll be more aware of trans people instead of us being invisible like we are to the mainstream. [/QUOTE] Oh, it seems you misunderstood what I said at first. Ok so what I MEAN is while sure we should let kids KNOW what trans people are so they can understand them but asking THEM personally "what gender do you think you are?" should be avoided till later and they have a better understanding of themselves. When I used the term "around the same time as sex ed" I meant that it's probably a good marker for children to be developed enough to start understanding the concepts properly as opposed to just "knowing it exits" because as you said, sure your Niece understands who you are and who you think you are but, I'm not sure if they or someone else of their age could easily grasp the line of thinking that comes with properly understanding your own identity and I think that it would be wrong for anyone besides themselves to try and start this. In short it's a very complex issue that young children shouldn't be concerned about, and just because Billy wants to play with Barbie you shouldn't start getting them involved in gender issues. If they do display a constant pattern of mismatched gender behaviours over a few years then perhaps it would be a good idea to ask them. I think the best way to sum up what I want to say is, "If it's gonna happen then let it happen, don't try to make it happen just in case it might happen." It might be a little silly but I can see parents prematurely and unnecessarily starting kids on the road to being transgender just because they play with girls a bit and get all in a flap that they don't want to accidentally [I]"oppress their true gender."[/I]
[QUOTE=Sleeves;50818521]He's got a point.[/QUOTE] The only point he has is the one on the top of his hat
[QUOTE=thisguy123;50828566]Oh, it seems you misunderstood what I said at first. Ok so what I MEAN is while sure we should let kids KNOW what trans people are so they can understand them but asking THEM personally "what gender do you think you are?" should be avoided till later and they have a better understanding of themselves. When I used the term "around the same time as sex ed" I meant that it's probably a good marker for children to be developed enough to start understanding the concepts properly as opposed to just "knowing it exits" because as you said, sure your Niece understands who you are and who you think you are but, I'm not sure if they or someone else of their age could easily grasp the line of thinking that comes with properly understanding your own identity and I think that it would be wrong for anyone besides themselves to try and start this. In short it's a very complex issue that young children shouldn't be concerned about, and just because Billy wants to play with Barbie you shouldn't start getting them involved in gender issues. If they do display a constant pattern of mismatched gender behaviours over a few years then perhaps it would be a good idea to ask them. I think the best way to sum up what I want to say is, "If it's gonna happen then let it happen, don't try to make it happen just in case it might happen." w It might be a little silly but I can see parents prematurely and unnecessarily starting kids on the road to being transgender just because they play with girls a bit and get all in a flap that they don't want to accidentally [I]"oppress their true gender."[/I][/QUOTE] i mean i feel like we only need to ask them if they seem unhappy being told theyre a boy or a girl. and there is no "who I think I am" I am female. I look like a girl, I sound like a girl, I am a girl. I mean it's clear when someone is a happy boy playing with barbies, this isn't what i'm arguing. Nobody is trying to make it happen, we're trying to dissociate the stigma attached to gender issues by teaching people. it's not a complex issue to tell kids that presenting as the gender they want to be is okay.
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