Read more about NK what things goes on in there. I wish there was a way to help the people who are locked up in there and suffer. [url]http://www.businessinsider.com/life-in-north-korea-prison-camp-horror-kim-jong-un-2013-3?op=1[/url] I nearly felt sick after reading this during a history class
I really have a hard time believing anything RAYHALO says because its so fucking insane.
I'm starting to think hes actually North Korean.
[QUOTE=Durrsly;42274627]You're saying that he can have an opinion, but people can't criticize because he has a right to free speech.[/QUOTE]
Personally i am quite happy for people to criticize what i post, what i have a problem with are the personal attacks.
I try to be rather polite in my posts.
All i would ask is that people attempt to keep the level of this discussion above the level of name-calling.
[QUOTE=Shaka;42274658]public shaming is not criticism, it's bullying. please learn to argue logically, thank you.[/QUOTE]
You serious?
Pointing out how NK is an utter shithole is bullying? Presenting sources of info about how horrid North Korea can be is bullying?
If so how is calling people fascist for doing so any better.
My friend's grandmother actually went to North Korea, met Kim Il Sung, got some medal that my friend still has, then wrote a book about it.
She says it's basically a crazy cult of person, so I'd trust that assessment rather than whatever is told my promoters of said contry.
Like, ask the tourist bureau in Denmark and they'll say there's loads of interesting stuff to see, but really most of Denmark is rather dull.
[QUOTE=ionuttzu;42272852]I don't remember NK ever building hospitals, parks and resorts while Jong Il was running.
All he did was put all the money in the army and in that butt-ugly hotel.
IMO it's a good change.[/QUOTE]
thats because defense spending and infastructure are signs of economic growth, while building luxury parks and trying to turn one's closed off country into a super-tourist trap is not
[editline]22nd September 2013[/editline]
the whole country should have been torn down years ago, if it wasn't for china, millions of people wouldn't be suffering under a central korean goverment,
yes i know this argument sounds bad but lets face it, life in South Korea is definatly better than in NK.
[QUOTE=RAYHALO;42274692]Personally i am quite happy for people to criticize what i post, what i have a problem with are the personal attacks.
I try to be rather polite in my posts.
All i would ask is that people attempt to keep the level of this discussion above the level of name-calling.[/QUOTE]
You're happy with people criticizing what you post yet 100% of your sources are NK state media or NK sympathizers.
Truth be told, friend, those sources, in my eyes, are just as valid as that "western bourgeois propaganda" moniker you like throwing around so much.
And yet, that "western bourgeois" is actually free people working independently from any government funding, researching shit about North Korea, while all of your sources are people who are, most likely, paid to spout idealistic bullshit.
You're not going to get anywhere on this forum until you can adequately prove, with independent sources, that your sources are in fact factual and correct. What's going to happen is people here will yell at you until they get bored, the people willing to put up with your shit stay here to argue into futility, and we will never, ever get anywhere.
So here's an idea, I remember you saying you did a lot of research into NK's politics and hierarchy and so on.
How about instead you go do an assload of research into those NK sources you have, prove that they are, in fact, legitimate. Thus you get a Nobel peace prize for correctly defending a hermetic totalitarian nation against the western bourgeois propagandists and thus turn the world on its head.
Though I get the feeling that you've ignored me since you never reply to my posts any more</3
also a unified korea could have been the economic powerhouse of the region, dwarfing japan but no geopolitics dictated that one half would become the thriving nation it is, while the other half would become the plaything for military generals and semi-puppet dictators
[QUOTE=Sableye;42274797]also a unified korea could have been the economic powerhouse of the region, dwarfing japan[/QUOTE]
It's not as if the DPRK does not want a unified Korea:
[QUOTE=Plan for the Founding of the Democratic Confederal Republic of Koryo, 10-Point Programme of the Great Unity of the Whole Nation]resident Kim Il Sung advanced a plan for founding the Democratic Confederal Republic of Koryo at the Sixth Congress of the Workers' Party of Korea in October Juche 69 (1980).
He stated that the most realistic and reasonable way to reunify the country independently, peacefully and on the principle of great national unity was to draw the north and south together into a confederal state, leaving the ideas and social systems existing in the north and south as they were. He therefore proposed a new plan to reunify the country by founding a confederal republic through the establishment of a unified national government on condition that the north and the south recognize and tolerate each other's ideas and social system, a government in which the two sides are represented on an equal footing and under which they exercise regional autonomy respectively with equal rights and duties.
He recommended that in the unified state of a confederal type a supreme national confederal assembly should be formed with an equal number of representatives from north and south and an appropriate number of representatives of overseas nationals and that this assembly should organize a confederal standing committee to guide the regional governments of the north and south and to administer all affairs of the confederal state.
He added that it would be a good idea to call the confederal state the Democratic Confederal Republic of Koryo.
The DCRK should be a neutral country which does not participate in any political, military alliance or bloc. As a unified state, embracing the whole of the territory and people of the country, it should pursue a policy which agrees with the fundamental interests and demands of the entire Korean people.
With its sincere efforts to achieve the peaceful reunification by founding the DCRK, the Government of the Republic put forward several new overtures for peace.
Early in Juche 73 (1984) the Republic proposed holding tripartite talks among the DPRK, the US and south Korea to conclude a peace agreement between the Republic and the United States, in place of the Armistice Agreement, and to adopt a nonaggression declaration between the north and the south, as a fundamental step towards peace on the Korean peninsula. Then in Juche 75 (1986) it took the initiative in suspending military exercises to help ease the tension and offered new proposals for talks between the military authorities and for converting the Korean peninsula into a nuclear-free peace zone.
In his policy speech delivered at the First Session of the Eighth Supreme People's Assembly on December 30, Juche 75 (1986), President Kim II Sung proposed holding high-level political and military talks between the north and the south in order to settle the urgent question of national reunification.
In his policy speech President Kim Il Sung said that if the north-south high-level political and military talks and dialogues in other spheres succeed, the north-south summit talks might be held to discuss the fundamental questions regarding national reunification.
In its statement dated July 23, Juche 76 (1987) the Government of the DPRK advanced a new proposal on massive phased military reduction. It proposed that the north and south of Korea must reduce their armed forces and each maintain a force of less than 100,000; in parallel with this, the United States should withdraw all its forces including nuclear weapons from south Korea and dismantle its military bases there. In publishing its new overture on arms reduction, the Government of the Republic announced that it would take the unilateral step of demobilizing the Korean People's Army by 100,000 men by the end of Juche 76 (1987).
On April 6, Juche 82 (1993) President Kim II Sung published the JO~Point Programme of the Great Unity of the Whole Nation for the Reunification of the Country at the Fifth Session of the Ninth Supreme People's Assembly. It is as follows:
1. A unified state, independent, peaceful and neutral, should be founded through the great unity of the whole nation.
2. Unity should be based on patriotism and the spirit of national independence.
3. Unity should be achieved on the principle of promoting co-existence, co-prosperity and common interests and subordinating everything to the cause of national reunification.
4. All political disputes that foment division and confrontation between fellow countrymen should be ended and unity should be achieved.
5. The fear of invasion from both south and north. and the ideas of prevailing over communism and communization should be dispelled, and north and south should believe in each other and unite.
6. The north and south should value democracy and join hands on the road to national reunification, without rejecting each other because of differences in ideals and principles.
7. The north and south should protect the material and spiritual wealth of individuals and organizations and encourage their use for the promotion of great national unity.
8. Understanding, trust and unity should be built up across the nation through contact, exchange visits and dialogue.
9. The whole nation, north, south and overseas. should strengthen its solidarity for the sake of national reunification.
10. Those who have contributed to the great unity of the nation and to the cause of national reunification should be honoured.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Sableye;42274797]but no geopolitics dictated that one half would become the thriving nation it is, while the other half would become the plaything for military generals and semi-puppet dictators[/QUOTE]
While the DPRK have been doing quite well i would hardly call it "thriving". :v:
[QUOTE=RAYHALO;42274858]It's not as if the DPRK does not want a unified Korea:
[/QUOTE]
Unification by total annihilation, which at one point were threatening literally daily.
You can't say that's fake. We had a stream to NK TV that went dead during that 3-day attack they said they were going to do.
[QUOTE=RAYHALO;42274858]
While the DPRK have been doing quite well i would hardly call it "thriving". :v:[/QUOTE]
got those backwards, friend
[editline]22nd September 2013[/editline]
I don't imagine reunification will be easy without a complete regime shift in the north though. ATM they're nice and cocooned in their ignorant little proletariat shell. If they unified, travel and commerce suddenly became possible, information became freely accessible, what do you think would happen?
People in the north would fucking flip a poo that they've been oppressed and brainwashed for so long.
[editline]22nd September 2013[/editline]
OH WOW that Il Sung thing you posted is fucking GENIUS
"He therefore proposed a new plan to reunify the country by founding a confederal republic through the establishment of a unified national government on condition that the north and the south recognize and tolerate each other's ideas and social system, a government in which the two sides are represented on an equal footing and under which they exercise regional autonomy respectively with equal rights and duties."
Translation: "Keep shit exactly as it was before"
[QUOTE=Durrsly;42274872]Unification by total annihilation[/QUOTE]
The DPRKs official stance towards reunification has always been that of a peaceful reunification.
[QUOTE]He stated that the most realistic and reasonable way to reunify the country independently, peacefully and on the principle of great national unity was to draw the north and south together into a confederal state, leaving the ideas and social systems existing in the north and south as they were. He therefore proposed a new plan to reunify the country by founding a confederal republic through the establishment of a unified national government on condition that the north and the south recognize and tolerate each other's ideas and social system, a government in which the two sides are represented on an equal footing and under which they exercise regional autonomy respectively with equal rights and duties.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]With its sincere efforts to achieve the peaceful reunification by founding the DCRK, the Government of the Republic put forward several new overtures for peace.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]1. A unified state, independent, peaceful and neutral, should be founded through the great unity of the whole nation.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]3. Unity should be achieved on the principle of promoting co-existence, co-prosperity and common interests and subordinating everything to the cause of national reunification.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]4. All political disputes that foment division and confrontation between fellow countrymen should be ended and unity should be achieved.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]5. The fear of invasion from both south and north. and the ideas of prevailing over communism and communization should be dispelled, and north and south should believe in each other and unite.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]6. The north and south should value democracy and join hands on the road to national reunification, without rejecting each other because of differences in ideals and principles.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]8. Understanding, trust and unity should be built up across the nation through contact, exchange visits and dialogue.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Durrsly;42274872]which at one point were threatening literally daily.
You can't say that's fake. We had a stream to NK TV.[/QUOTE]
Its certainly not a part of the DPRKs official stance.
[QUOTE=RAYHALO;42274930]
Its certainly not a part of the DPRKs official stance.[/QUOTE]
Military statements on the single TV channel there isn't legit?
[I]Are you fucking kidding me?[/I]
Everything you're posting is very pretty language and all but there is literally no substance behind any of it.
Read the lines you've even quoted, it's just saying "Preserve their current ideals and social systems" and "exercise regional autonomy respectively with equal rights and duties." which is just fancy talk for "you do your policies, we do ours".
There is literally no way the north and south can unify in their current states. Even if EVERYONE, every single last human being on the planet, especially the SK-s were all expecting reunification, it simply wouldn't happen. It would just dethrone the current rulers in the north and nothing else.
The DPRK does NOT have the people's best interests at heart. it never has and it never will.
Cue Rayhalo with "But the DPRK has democratic elections taking place every bla bla bla"
[editline]22nd September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=RAYHALO;42274930]
Its certainly not a part of the DPRKs official stance.[/QUOTE]
Also yeah it is since media is very strictly state controlled
Edit:
Though here we do need to make a distinction between what they say to the world and what they say to their own people.
[QUOTE=RAYHALO;42274036]...dubious accusations...[/QUOTE]
Pop Quiz, what are these then?
[img]http://i.huffpost.com/gen/963697/thumbs/o-GOOGLE-MAPS-NORTH-KOREA-570.jpg?6[/img]
[img]http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/51424b78eab8eaa35800000b-1200/camp-22-north-korea-from-google-earth.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.huffpost.com/gen/963772/thumbs/o-GOOGLE-MAPS-NORTH-KOREA-570.jpg?5[/img]
snip ninja
[QUOTE=RAYHALO;42274930]The DPRKs official stance towards reunification has always been that of a peaceful reunification.
Its certainly not a part of the DPRKs official stance.[/QUOTE]
While I don't agree with what he says, I don't think we can be entirely sure it's not true. Any media coverage is usually for some form of political or financial gain, so quoting news articles is going to do nothing to hurt or help his argument. Look at the Spanish-american war, it was started mainly from yellow journalism. It could very well be the same case here.
snip
Funny how Capitalism and more freedom in the marketplace is doing wonders for North Korea.
You know RAYHALO if you really want an authentic north korean experience I can set up my garden shed with a little workbench, I'll get a bunch of old shoes and you can mend them for 16 hours a day. I won't be able to go all-out though, for instance I won't be able to force you at gunpoint to murder the babies of other prisoners (there won't be other prisoners and I don't even have a gun).
"dubious accusations"
you are such a turdball
This. . . this is absolutely beautiful, this thread here.
Dude, RAYHALO, listen, I'm an American Socialist, so we should be on similar footing, right? Guess what? North Korea ain't shit. It's the asshole of the planet.
v:v:v
[QUOTE=ewitwins;42275841]This. . . this is absolutely beautiful, this thread here.
Dude, RAYHALO, listen, I'm an American Socialist, so we should be on similar footing, right? Guess what? North Korea ain't shit. It's the asshole of the planet.
v:v:v[/QUOTE]
i can't tell if he's trolling or not
[QUOTE=RAYHALO;42274406]
I would maintain the HRW at the very least has been provided with incorrect information - through no fault of there own of course.[/QUOTE]
Who provided them this false info? Do you have any evidence from a non-North Korean source to back that up?
And why hasnt NK allowed NGOs like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch free movement within NK to conduct inspections?
[QUOTE=RAYHALO;42273261]I feel that this is more the DPRK finally exiting the period of restructuring and rebuilding that it entered after the collapse of the Eastern Bloc, the subsequent "Arduous March" famine and the death of Kim II-sung.
The recent push for infrastructure just seems to be a byproduct of an economy that has been modernized and no longer almost entirely reliant on foreign trade - as the DPRK was before the collapse of the Eastern Bloc.[/QUOTE]
what economy? all they're doing is building this inane shit to look like a functioning country
[editline]22nd September 2013[/editline]
why do we have a NK advocate on here? I know that FP has always had an amazing talent for looking straight at concrete proof and just ignoring it but this is on another level entirely
It fills me with glee at the thought that capitalism and corruption eats away at the inside of the North Korean state.
North Korea will have to open its doors someday, especially when every force is pressing on the door minus conservatism and isolationism.
[QUOTE=Shaka;42274567]except he cant voice his opinion because hes met with criticism from an opposing ideology, you're clearly demonstrating fascist tendencies yet you either don't see that or refuse to admit it, i pity you.[/QUOTE]Not agreeing with socialism does not make one a fascist. Not agreeing with Juche does not make one a fascist/imperialist/whatever-flavor-of-the-month-the-Great-Leader-decides. We have anarchists, capitalists, communists, socialists, libertarians, fascists, and maybe a few people who would be A-OK with a theocracy or two. Shit, Facepunch merely being such a diverse community proves you wrong. (in your implication that Facepunch leans towards fascism and the like) I lean heavily toward libertarian, I do label myself as libertarian, but I find certain arguments from anarchists to be sound, and I find some to be total bullshit. That being said, some select few things fascist regimes have done sit well with me, but I don't fucking agree that fascism is a good type of political system to have.
He's getting criticism because North Korea is fucking [i]terrible[/i] and it's blatantly fucking obvious. I was unsure as to why there was a DPRK-run propaganda campaign aimed at the outside, but now I fully understand. People like RAYHALO are the only fucking reason why it exists, so, mystery solved there. I mean I thought it was painfully easy for everyone to see that the DPRK is not a nice place, and it's a bad government that's shit all over it's people and brainwashed them so you can understand my confusion. I say this as an American who is highly, [i]highly[/i] critical of my own government, but for the time being all I need to worry about is having an NSA file on me. All of that aside, I find it odd he's picked the DPRK of all places to go to over the capitalist hellhole that Australia is [i]oh so famous[/i] for being. (this is sarcasm, by the way) I mean, if you want a socialist alternative he could have went with Cuba, but something tells me learning Spanish wasn't ever in his agenda. (not like it matters, Cuba's education system is leaps and bounds ahead of fucking North Korea, so I'm sure they'd work with him) Hell, as far as communist/socialist revolutions go, Cuba's managed to be the only one not marred by a massive body count! Maybe he just has a thing for Asians, and with Vietnam's opening up to the West and the unfortunate climate of Laos, North Korea was the only one left.
Pyongyang is designed only to be a Disney land for the Kim dynasty.
Seriously, why would they be building resorts when a majority of their people are starving?
Disneyland sounds nice...
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42277321]It fills me with glee at the thought that capitalism and corruption eats away at the inside of the North Korean state.
North Korea will have to open its doors someday, especially when every force is pressing on the door minus conservatism and isolationism.[/QUOTE]
[img]http://www.fooducate.com/blog/wp-content/media/mcdonalds-china.jpg[/img]
[img]http://tar.weatherson.net/files/imgs/82/mcdonalds.jpg[/img]
[img]http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3642/3474288276_5aaa8ee4b7.jpg[/img]
The death of socialism and communism
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