France's premier warns of new attacks, 15 000 people on police radar
120 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;51034677]Oh i remember that from history class. The reason i'm not agreeing with you is that the actual situation is actually layered and nuanced and doesn't fit into an easy, banal correlation. You might have realized that if you didn't draw your brain from a parking-lot slot-machine.
If you think muslims living in the western world can be compared to Germans living in post-crash Germany, you must be nothing but meat with eyes.
These are people who receive state subsidies, often have houses provided for them, have the opportunity to give their children free pluralistic educations. Compared to what they'd have in the countries they have arrived from, they are almost living a tick above middle-class.
So frankly, if people are getting tired of them radicalizing into religious extremists despite all that, i cant say i blame them. There is no justification for all the trouble they are causing.[/QUOTE]
Is that what you think? Take a good, long look at the reality.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/q7ePy3d.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/Z11v0EJ.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/6HWuRaA.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/yXjCZBP.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/theVxiM.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/7wYpRYL.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;51034697]Is that what you think? Take a good, long look at the reality.[/QUOTE]
Yes i suppose you can argue for anything if you are allowed to switch the topic between posts.
We are not talking about the huddled masses of humanity escaping syria, we are talking about muslims who are already well inside normal everyday society.
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;51034705]Yes i suppose you can argue for anything if you are allowed to switch the topic between posts.
We are not talking about the huddled masses of humanity escaping syria, we are talking about muslims who are already well inside normal everyday society.[/QUOTE]
The treatment of refugees blows over into treatment of Muslim citizens, even established families that have been in their home nations for years. The majority of trouble comes from the refugee group, but many radicalized citizens are furious about treatment of their family members or friends in camps. Additionally, trouble from these camps affects established Muslim citizens with things like bans on hijab, increased surveillance, and profiling from police, which only further confirms extremist propaganda.
You can't tell me there's no systematic abuse of Muslims when it's happening on a mass scale in Europe. Some Muslims already being citizens doesn't invalidate this and it doesn't mean the same sentiments that affect refugees so harshly aren't also applied to citizens.
[QUOTE=Niklas;51034690]Other countries have also massively suffered under western imperialism and american foreign policy, but unlike the arab world they aren't seeing themselves as the victims of the west.[/QUOTE]
for example?
There are so many god damn strawman arguments in this page alone that I confused it for a haystack.
No one said that muslims are special people who should never be criticized. I just like the notion of "innocent until proven guilty"
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;51034697]Is that what you think? Take a good, long look at the reality.
[t]http://i.imgur.com/q7ePy3d.jpg[/t]
[t]http://i.imgur.com/Z11v0EJ.jpg[/t]
[t]http://i.imgur.com/6HWuRaA.jpg[/t]
[t]http://i.imgur.com/yXjCZBP.jpg[/t]
[t]http://i.imgur.com/theVxiM.jpg[/t]
[t]http://i.imgur.com/7wYpRYL.jpg[/t][/QUOTE]
Holy fuck, what are you trying to say? That millions of refugees on their way to europe aren't living in sanitary spaces? How is europe or the west to blame for this? The last picture is from a jordan refugee camp by the way.
[QUOTE=Niklas;51034731]Holy fuck, what are you trying to say? That millions of refugees on their way to europe aren't living in sanitary spaces? How is europe or the west to blame for this? The last picture is from a jordan refugee camp by the way.
Refugees on their way to europe aren't living in sanetary space[/QUOTE]
"They're given first-class housing!" is bullshit. These people suffer in squalor. They live in fucking tents.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;51034160]Awwww, those poor extremists. Poor them.[/QUOTE]
What about the other 99%? Should I hate all Irish people because of the IRA?
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;51034715]The treatment of refugees blows over into treatment of Muslim citizens, even established families that have been in their home nations for years. The majority of trouble comes from the refugee group, but many radicalized citizens are furious about treatment of their family members or friends in camps. Additionally, trouble from these camps affects established Muslim citizens with things like bans on hijab, increased surveillance, and profiling from police, which only further confirms extremist propaganda.
You can't tell me there's no systematic abuse of Muslims when it's happening on a mass scale in Europe. Some Muslims already being citizens doesn't invalidate this and it doesn't mean the same sentiments that affect refugees so harshly aren't also applied to citizens.[/QUOTE]
Oh i don't suppose you've got a couple billion lying around so we could accommodate millions of refugees then? You're so compassionate, maybe you should come over here and volunteer for some work in the camps. I'm interested though, would you try to explain to abdullah why he cant have a 14 year old wife? Or why they cant beat the shit out of their christian countryman? Or would that be marginalizing them based on their race, or beliefs or whatever it is you people believe the west is doing.
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;51034753]Oh i don't suppose you've got a couple billion lying around so we could accommodate millions of refugees then? You're so compassionate, maybe you should come over here and volunteer for some work in the camps. I'm interested though, would you try to explain to abdullah why he cant have a 14 year old wife? Or why they cant beat the shit out of their christian countryman? Or would that be marginalizing them based on their race, or beliefs or whatever it is you people believe the west is doing.[/QUOTE]
All muslims marry 14 year olds and beat up Christians, totally, yep
Lmao you are literally an unabashed racist, I'm not wasting my time with this
Don't bother with "muslim isnt a race :ddd" because this isn't a semantics argument
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;51034738]"They're given first-class housing!" is bullshit. These people suffer in squalor. They live in fucking tents.[/QUOTE]
These pictures show refugees on their way to europe, not european refugee centers. I still don't see what you are trying to say here, seems more like you are trying to twist a narrative.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;51034697]Is that what you think? Take a good, long look at the reality.
[/QUOTE]
If there's not even enough housing for the natives of European countries, how are we going to house refugees properly? The only way Europe could treat refugees better is if we turned most of them away and focused on a smaller number. But I guess that would also be playing into the hands of extremists.
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;51034753]Oh i don't suppose you've got a couple billion lying around so we could accommodate millions of refugees then? You're so compassionate, maybe you should come over here and volunteer for some work in the camps. [B]I'm interested though, would you try to explain to abdullah why he cant have a 14 year old wife? Or why they cant beat the shit out of their christian countryman? Or would that be marginalizing them based on their race, or beliefs or whatever it is you people believe the west is doing.[/B][/QUOTE]
seriously, I will be the first to say that islam should not be shielded from criticism, "free speech" applies to it like any religion or idea.
but this is just xenophobic nonsense. so yes, assuming all muslims are the same [B]IS[/B] " marginalizing them based on their race, or beliefs"
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;51034677]Oh i remember that from history class. The reason i'm not agreeing with you is that the actual situation is actually layered and nuanced and doesn't fit into an easy, banal correlation. You might have realized that if you didn't draw your brain from a parking-lot slot-machine.
If you think muslims living in the western world can be compared to Germans living in post-crash Germany, you must be nothing but meat with eyes.
These are people who receive state subsidies, often have houses provided for them, have the opportunity to give their children free pluralistic educations. Compared to what they'd have in the countries they have arrived from, they are almost living a tick above middle-class.
So frankly, if people are getting tired of them radicalizing into religious extremists despite all that, i cant say i blame them. There is no justification for all the trouble they are causing.[/QUOTE]
Don't spose you've seen the camps in Calais? They rendered the entire bus full of people I was on literally speechless, it's a massive slum right outside of a super well funded 1st world harbour. And said slum as a massive barbed wire fence all around it to keep away the scary brown people.
Frankly I don't resent the 99% of poor persecuted people who have had their homes blown up and have been chased out of their countries by men with AL47s and bombs. Why would I? Because there are also bad people who share the same origins?
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;51034756]All muslims marry 14 year olds and beat up Christians, totally, yep
Lmao you are literally an unabashed racist, I'm not wasting my time with this
Don't bother with "muslim isnt a race :ddd" because this isn't a semantics argument[/QUOTE]
No, you don't back out like a pussy from this conversation because i'm a racist, i don't believe you believe that. You back out because the idea that muslims are disastrously poorly equipped for the modern world makes you uncomfortable. So what you have to do is make me out to have said things i didn't say, then you can claim moral superiority and flounder away.
All muslims aren't childraping, violent maniacs. But a pretty alarming percentage of them apparently are. You can deny it all you want from way over there in 'we don't want to do anything about the syria-problem'-land.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;51034738]"They're given first-class housing!" is bullshit. These people suffer in squalor. They live in fucking tents.[/QUOTE]
If they got there fast enough at least.
The guys who are just being thrown onto the pile of bodies we know as "refugee camps" aren't so lucky because these places are just backing up to atrocious levels.
Apparently it's all or nothing. Judging by this tread we should either kill all Muslims or help ISIS take over the entire world.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;51034697]Is that what you think? Take a good, long look at the reality.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/q7ePy3d.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/Z11v0EJ.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/6HWuRaA.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/yXjCZBP.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/theVxiM.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/7wYpRYL.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Yes, that is good reason for people's anger. But is it West fault? Well it kinda is because Merkels speech "everybody come you are welcome"...
Also France bombed lots of countries from where refugees came... France kinda is in deep shit.
[QUOTE=Fourier;51034818]Yes, that is good reason for people's anger. But is it West fault? Well it kinda is because Merkels speech "everybody come you are welcome"...
Also France bombed lots of countries from where refugees came... France kinda is in deep shit.[/QUOTE]
Doesn't matter if it's our fault or not, they're human beings and as fellow human beings we have an obligation to treat them with some fucking dignity. Not just a moral obligation, but a legal one under what is apparently meaningless international law.
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;51034796]No, you don't back out like a pussy from this conversation because i'm a racist, i don't believe you believe that. You back out because the idea that [B]muslims are disastrously poorly equipped for the modern world makes you uncomfortable[/B]. So what you have to do is make me out to have said things i didn't say, then you can claim moral superiority and flounder away.
All muslims aren't childraping, violent maniacs. But a pretty alarming percentage of them apparently are. You can deny it all you want from way over there in 'we don't want to do anything about the syria-problem'-land.[/QUOTE]
Do you know that the first woman to win the fields medal ("the nobel prize of math") was from iran? no of course you don't.
If you look at the west, Muslim populations are often as or even less religiously conservative as Christians and other groups, according to statistics. if you look in the middle east, its obvious that you do not understand that when you are stuck growing up in a theocracy, where religion is forced by the government, that the population is, surprise surprise, conservative.
When you run out of logical reasons to dislike a group of people (guess what, there are no logical reasons to generalize a whole group), it becomes fair ground to call you a racist. you hit that point.
Well yeah but Islam isn't a race, but that doesn't mean it's any more ok to persecute them.
Well Thank God theres a sea between us
[QUOTE=Fourier;51034818]Yes, that is good reason for people's anger. But is it West fault? Well it kinda is because Merkels speech "everybody come you are welcome"... [/QUOTE]
I will say the refugee situation is a complex problem with no simple solutions. I understand why refugee camps occurred, no one expects Europe to magically build housing, infrastructure, and economy ready to support millions of people practically overnight.
But, what I know is that pushing Muslims out of society will not end well. Not a single instance of a majority treating a minority group poorly/subhuman ended well. And we see it happening it today, whether it be banning the burka/burkini, talking down on them, calling them all terrorists, etc.
I don't believe this situation can be all "love and roses", but going about it xenaphobically will CERTAINLY not help,
[QUOTE=da space core;51034829]When you run out of logical reasons to dislike a group of people (guess what, there are no logical reasons to generalize a whole group), it becomes fair ground to call you a racist. you hit that point.[/QUOTE]
I haven't run out of reasons to dislike predominantly Islamic people, given that in a predominantly Islamic society i probably wouldn't be allowed to live, and neither would you.
[QUOTE=Rossy167;51034827]Doesn't matter if it's our fault or not, they're human beings and as fellow human beings we have an obligation to treat them with some fucking dignity. Not just a moral obligation, but a legal one under what is apparently meaningless international law.[/QUOTE]
This is --NOT--- what a refugee camp in western europe looks like, these are pictures from people who were on the way to europe, no, refugees don't live in camping tents and mud once they get registration.
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;51034586]Freedom of speech ends the exact moment you incite violence or threaten violence..[/QUOTE]
What about people who did neither of those things but were told they were doing them by an overbearing government who somehow connected the dots between wearing a hijab at school and religiously oppressing your surroundings into conversion ?
I'm sure the schoolgirls who got kicked out of school for wearing a headscarf were bloodthirsty maniacs who deserved to be denied education.
[QUOTE=da space core;51034829]
if you look in the middle east, its obvious that you do not understand that when you are stuck growing up in a theocracy, where religion is forced by the government, that the population is, surprise surprise, conservative.
[/QUOTE]
And those people are the ones that come to the west. What's your point? That he's right and the middle eastern muslims don't fit into western society?
Why you even bring Maryam Mirzakhani into the discussion is beyond me, I don't want to say that you're projecting, but he never said all muslims were bad. In fact, if you had kept reading after the text you bolded, you'd have seen that he consented to the fact that not all muslims are child rapists or homicidal thugs.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51034885]I can dispute that, what makes you "unqualified" or him?
He wouldnt have any issues owning guns for starts.
Psshh here are some hints: Words you are looking for are "Backwards Middle Eastern Cultures" not "Islamic Cultures", latter group has too little in common to be a group
Islam didnt influence Arabs, Arabs influenced Islam.[/QUOTE]
No, the real word is 'theocracies'. Islam happens to be a manual on how to build them.
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;51034869]I haven't run out of reasons to dislike predominantly Islamic people, given that in a predominantly Islamic society i probably wouldn't be allowed to live, and neither would you.[/QUOTE]
here is the point you miss.
in a predominantly christian society, for example, all gay people would be stoned.
but my response isn't "screw all christians"
What I want is a secular society, where everyone can coexist. the way many middle eastern countries are going about it, turning religion into law, I believe is wrong. What I argue for is to allow the vast vast majority of muslims who do no wrong to exist peacefully without any prejustices against them. if one were to harm someone else, they would go under our court of law to fair trial just like anyone else. Is that really so insane?
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51034904]
Yes they have bunkbeds, how dare you grenadiac deny these people have free housing and subsidies, bunkbeds prove both[/QUOTE]
When the government is buying apartments in a market where supply is already rock-bottom and demand sky-high, what more could we possibly do other than kick them all out or let them live on the streets?
Refugees do get free housing, not all of them get their very own apartments though. If there were enough apartments available however, they would.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.