• IT BEGINS: Texas Senate is Voting on a REFERENDUM on INDEPENDENCE from the United States today.
    351 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Big Bang;49251699]who's going to defend your borders? Texas militias? would they in any way be stronger than any other national military?[/QUOTE] Our State Police on our Southern Border is effectively a military force. [IMG]http://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/08/07/us/TEXAS1/TEXAS1-master675-v2.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://dailysignal.com/wp-content/uploads/DPS-Marine-official.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]https://cmgstatesmaninvestigations.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/jwj-border-surge1.jpg[/IMG] Beyond that we have no external threats. [QUOTE=Big Bang;49251699]who's going to represent you to the world[/QUOTE] Texas will represent Texas [QUOTE=Big Bang;49251699]would Texas have even a fraction of the international recognition and authority that the US have?[/QUOTE] Recognition, we shall see, but the second line, why should we care about Authority, we aren't the fucking world police so why the hell should we care about Authority, especially when we're not dependent on anyone else. [QUOTE=Big Bang;49251699]where would Texas have embassies? what would Texas be in the UN? what guarantees that Texas will not suffer the same fate as the Confederates?[/QUOTE] Texas had Embassies in London, Paris and Amsterdam when it was meaningless piece of land in 1845 why wouldn't it be able to establish new ones. [QUOTE=Big Bang;49251699]what are you going to do with the hundreds of thousands of US federal agencies, institutions, offices and land that would now belong to the state of Texas? hell, what about NASA? would you give them back? would you expropriate them?[/QUOTE] Firstly, the Federal government has very little land in Texas because of our status as a Republic when we joined the United States,we kept all our public lands. Secondly, what about them, they're the Federal Government's assets, and it'll be up to them to dispose of them how they see fit. [QUOTE=Big Bang;49251699]what happens to the prisoners in federal prisons in Texas, do they become Texan prisoners, and if so, under what law, the US, or Texas?[/QUOTE] The US government already imprisons foreign nationals, including Manuel Noriega, it'll be up to them to deal with them. [QUOTE=Big Bang;49251699]what about citizens in Texas who don't want to be part of an independent Texan state, what do you do about them?[/QUOTE] What is the point of this question? If they don't want to be apart of Texas then they can keep their U.S. citizenship and fucking leave, why should we give a fuck? [QUOTE=Big Bang;49251699]what do you do about immigrants, legal or otherwise?[/QUOTE] What about them, it's logical, for the legal ones simply recognize their visas if they shown they were settled in Texas at the time of secession, for the ones without papers I would assume they'll be given some type of temporary status by virtue of living in the state at the time of secession. [QUOTE=Big Bang;49251699]what about people born outside of Texas that want to be Texan?[/QUOTE] What about people born outside of Venezuela who want to be Venezuelan? [QUOTE=Big Bang;49251699]like, would you even have a passport? [/QUOTE] You make it sound like it's impossible for a government to issue a passport. [QUOTE=Big Bang;49251699]who would run the Texas courts? who would be the highest judicial authority? [/QUOTE] Do you know anything about the United States? All courts are run by the states except for Federal Courts, and if Texas secedes the Federal Courts become moot. [QUOTE=Big Bang;49251699]what about the hundreds of thousands of companies registered in Texas under US laws, would they no longer exist in Texas, what laws govern them, what laws protects them? what about international trade?[/QUOTE] You realize all businesses are incorporated under state law? [QUOTE=Big Bang;49251699]hell what even stops the new Texan government from creating new taxes? I mean, the only reason why you want Texas to secede is due to taxes, right? what makes you think that with Texas being independent you will have more personal income?[/QUOTE] Why would Texas create new taxes? [QUOTE=Big Bang;49251699]who's even going to take control of those rigs? the Texas Navy, does such a thing even exist? would any of the companies owning them be willing to give them away to Texas? [B]hell what claims does Texas have there?[/B] what guarantee do you even have through secession that the US will grant Texas maritime territory that is economically active? like are you not aware huge maritime disputes happen for much less than this?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=draugur;49251819]Lol you actually think the US would let Texas secede AND have those oil rigs? I'd say keep your head in the clouds but there's no clouds at the altitude you're currently orbiting at.[/QUOTE] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_economic_zone[/url] Texas is entitled to them under international law, and if they don't want to pay Texas they can fuck off.
you're precious
[QUOTE=draugur;49251819]Lol you actually think the US would let Texas secede AND have those oil rigs? I'd say keep your head in the clouds but there's no clouds at the altitude you're currently orbiting at.[/QUOTE] they'd probably get the western, but past that is us international waters
[QUOTE=Big Bang;49251808]sure, if you ignore the jurisprudence nightmare such a thing would be, and how a huge part of that GDP is because it is [I]part of the US[/I], not an independent country. the cost of running the US is offset by all the money from all the states and the taxes it collects from such an income Texas would have to instead spend its money on running all the things the Federal Government currently pays for.[/QUOTE] Apart from setting up a military and a postal service what the fuck would Texas have to pay for? We already have a State agency for almost everything there's a Federal agency for.
I think Texas could survive outside of the US. I don't think it'd even necessarily be a bad thing, economically - Texas is basically run like an independent nation already except where Federal law overrides state law. I do think we'd miss out on a lot of benefits we gain by being part of the US, though.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49251940]Apart from setting up a military and a postal service what the fuck would Texas have to pay for? We already have a State agency for almost everything there's a Federal agency for.[/QUOTE] Well, certainly wouldn't have to pay for abortions anymore. Texas would look like The Handmaiden's Tale in about 20 years if it successfully broke away.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49251909]Whole bunch of shit about texas[/QUOTE] All of this is irrelevant anyway because texas cannot leave the Union legally without breaching the constitution. So unless you plan on starting a civil war with some of these boats you're not likely to see texas being its own nation any time soon.
I think the point of this vote, since it isn't a legally binding secession vote, is to make a point to the federal government that Texans are not happy with it.
Haha plucky little texas wants to secede. It'll never happen.
I say get rid of texas, admit puerto rico. Get rid of some assholes, and don't have to change the flag. I do feel for the people in Austin though
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;49251737] Thats because American manufacturing is complete garbage. I would buy a Chinese made anything before I buy an American made anything. From cars to guns to toys to clothing, American manufacturing is second to everyone.[/QUOTE] Chinese cars are literal bottom-tier in terms of engineering and build quality. All they have going for them is their low price.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49251967]I think the point of this vote, since it isn't a legally binding secession vote, is to make a point to the federal government that Texans are not happy with it.[/QUOTE] The people of Texas also have a tendency of electing fucking idiots so I'm not entirely sure their opinion is worth all that much on a federal scale.
[QUOTE=Rocko's;49251789]Yeah, neglected that part. Was more or less thinking that if Texas leaves, they will probably more than likely cut any ties with the US, and probably its money too. Forgot that it'd still be feasible for Texas to use the US currency as a form of de facto currency, even when it's illegal.[/QUOTE] Read the following reply to Sobotnik to see why this belief is totally bullshit: [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49251797]Why would Texas leave only for monetary policy to be still decided by the US? The difference now is that the considerations of Texas wouldn't be brought onboard, so if a policy which was favorable to the US but fucked over Texas was adopted, they could do nothing about it. Why bother with independence if you're not getting control over some of the most significant parts of economic policy?[/QUOTE] The assumption would be that it would not cease and cut each and every single possible tie to the United States the first day of independence. That is beyond retarded to assume. It would definitely be a slow and long process. Texas probably would adopt its own currency eventually but not right from day 1. Being that Texas and the US would share a very long border, it's mindboggling for anyone to believe that they would have ZERO economic interaction. Don't be naive and say "oh they're economy will be ruined without the US" - The US [I]obviously[/I] would be Texas's biggest trade partner and would keep [I]many[/I] corporate interests between the two intact. They aren't going to closer borders down and pretend each other doesn't exist, in an economic as well as a political sense. Texas is more similar to the US than it is different, they will always have the same general economic plans and goals and will no doubt work with each other greatly.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49251945]I think Texas could survive outside of the US. I don't think it'd even necessarily be a bad thing, economically - Texas is basically run like an independent nation already except where Federal law overrides state law. I do think we'd miss out on a lot of benefits we gain by being part of the US, though.[/QUOTE] The thing is, what benefits do we get from being apart of the United States on a personal level? We would all still keep our U.S. citizenship, and not only that, but our children would still be entitled to U.S. citizenship anyway. Beyond that, due to the fact over a quarter of the U.S.'s refineries are in Texas (That's 1 in 8 in the entire world), it's not like there will be any type of serious trade barriers.
Most Texans don't want to leave but the only people who take part in this vote will want to.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49251989]The thing is, what benefits do we get from being apart of the United States on a personal level? We would all still keep our U.S. citizenship, and not only that, but our children would still be entitled to U.S. citizenship anyway. Beyond that, due to the fact over a quarter of the U.S.'s refineries are in Texas (That's 1 in 8 in the entire world), it's not like there will be any type of serious trade barriers.[/QUOTE] Aside from obvious things like visa-free travel out of state, which will probably change at list for a little while, we also have the fed's intelligence bureaus protecting us from terroristic threats. We the people will never know how many they catch.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49251989]The thing is, what benefits do we get from being apart of the United States on a personal level? We would all still keep our U.S. citizenship, and not only that, but our children would still be entitled to U.S. citizenship anyway. Beyond that, due to the fact over a quarter of the U.S.'s refineries are in Texas (That's 1 in 8 in the entire world), it's not like there will be any type of serious trade barriers.[/QUOTE] No. No you wouldn't, you'd be an unrecognized state and no longer American citizens. You don't want to leave, you're just flirting with what Puerto Rico has.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49251909]Our State Police on our Southern Border is effectively a military force.[/quote] the pictures you showed me are of a glorified coastguard [quote]Why would Texas create new taxes?[/quote] take a wild guess as to what governments do [quote][url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_economic_zone[/url] Texas is entitled to them under international law, and if they don't want to pay Texas they can fuck off.[/QUOTE] this somehow includes the oil rigs off the coast of Louisiana?
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49251940]Apart from setting up a military and a postal service what the fuck would Texas have to pay for? We already have a State agency for almost everything there's a Federal agency for.[/QUOTE] lmao taxes pay for infrastructure and civil servants. Those Federal Agencies get their money FROM the taxes. Texas is absolutely massive for the population it has. That small population is going to HAVE to be taxed to shit in order to maintain the states infrastructure. Unless of course you think you can live without plumbing, roads, schools, police, fire departments, or any of the other numerous things taxes pay for. Also you seriously think that people who want to stay a part of the US are going to just pack up and leave? Texas would be in a civil war the moment it declared independence. A civil war that is likely going to be directly funded by the US. A civil war thats going to attract thousands of gung-ho militias from all over the states to bring the roudy texans back into the union.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49251979]The people of Texas also have a tendency of electing fucking idiots so I'm not entirely sure their opinion is worth all that much on a federal scale.[/QUOTE] Texans tend not to vote except in local issues because we have no faith in the greater political system. Most voters for governor and president are older, galvanized conservatives. Most voters for local elections are middle aged, moderate conservatives or younger left-leaning conservatives and liberals.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;49251988]Read the following reply to Sobotnik to see why this belief is totally bullshit: The assumption would be that it would not cease and cut each and every single possible tie to the United States the first day of independence. That is beyond retarded to assume. It would definitely be a slow and long process. Texas probably would adopt its own currency eventually but not right from day 1. Being that Texas and the US would share a very long border, it's mindboggling for anyone to believe that they would have ZERO economic interaction. Don't be naive and say "oh they're economy will be ruined without the US" - The US [I]obviously[/I] would be Texas's biggest trade partner and would keep [I]many[/I] corporate interests between the two intact. They aren't going to closer borders down and pretend each other doesn't exist, in an economic as well as a political sense. Texas is more similar to the US than it is different, they will always have the same general economic plans and goals and will no doubt work with each other greatly.[/QUOTE] That and the fact the U.S. would effectively be cutting it's nose to spite the face if they embargo Texas because it'll be oil-crisis 2.0 since that's 25% of their refineries.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49251989]The thing is, what benefits do we get from being apart of the United States on a personal level? [B]We would all still keep our U.S. citizenship,[/B] and not only that, but our children would still be entitled to U.S. citizenship anyway.[/QUOTE] If Texas violates the Constitution and secedes from the USA, why does your USA citizenship remain intact if you instead decide to become a citizen of Free Texas? Why is the USA forced to honour and maintain dual citizenship relations with a separated Texas? Your plan seems to hinge on a fuckton of assumptions that everything will remain about the same except that you won't have to pay taxes. :v: I'm reminded of the Quebec separation crisis years back, and the nearly-successful referendum. It was rather hilarious to see that most separatists wanted to keep all of the benefits of remaining a part of Canada (including receiving federal money) while getting to decide everything for themselves as an independent country; in effect they wanted to be part of Canada but super-special and separate. Kind of like Texas but more French.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49252017]That and the fact the U.S. would effectively be cutting it's nose to spite the face if they embargo Texas because it'll be oil-crisis 2.0 since that's 25% of their refineries.[/QUOTE] The US wouldn't need to embargo Texas. The moment Texas decides to secede it'll collapse into civil war with the people who don't want to secede. A civil war that the US most certainly will be intervening in since thousands of American lives are at risk.
This is literally just like when Western Australia tried to succeed from the commonwealth and become its own nation only to have the referendum completely ignored by Westminster same thing is going to happen here, senators will show DC that they want to succeed with a piece of paper with the results and have it thrown into a bin, you might as well put all ballot votes in a garbage can while your at it you're [B][I][U]never[/U][/I][/B] going to get the approval to succeed without military force [editline]6th December 2015[/editline] also, you can't guarantee that the national guard won't split over this, i dont know shit about the US but im sure those people + the police swear an oath to the republic, not to Texas itself so if sides are something worth picking, most will cross to the union, the others will be considered rogue/rebels
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49251758]And you're sure it won't have one if it leaves? Like every country in the world these days is heavily dependent upon some form of income tax to draw enough revenue to sustain the machinery of civilization.[/QUOTE] Because what's the point, we'll get $350 million a year from the Oil Rigs currently under Federal control. And again, the state has a net loss of $15 to $20 billion a year in federal taxes. [editline]5th December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=fruxodaily;49252049]This is literally just like when Western Australia tried to succeed from the commonwealth and become its own nation only to have the referendum completely ignored by Westminster same thing is going to happen here, senators will show DC that they want to succeed with a piece of paper with the results and have it thrown into a bin, you might as well put all ballot votes in a garbage can while your at it you're [B][I][U]never[/U][/I][/B] going to get the approval to succeed without military force [editline]6th December 2015[/editline] also, you can't guarantee that the national guard won't split over this, i dont know shit about the US but im sure those people + the police swear an oath to the republic, not to Texas itself so if sides are something worth picking, most will cross to the union, the others will be considered rogue/rebels[/QUOTE] I find it funny Hutt River succeed where Western Australia failed.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49251909] Why would Texas create new taxes? [/QUOTE] FIFTEEN PERCENT of your state is on FEDERAL food stamps twelve percent are on medicare/medicaid
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49252060]Because what's the point, we'll get $350 million a year from the Oil Rigs currently under Federal control.[/quote] that's less than 0.1% of your gdp lmao
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49252013]lmao taxes pay for infrastructure and civil servants. Those Federal Agencies get their money FROM the taxes. Texas is absolutely massive for the population it has. That small population is going to HAVE to be taxed to shit in order to maintain the states infrastructure. Unless of course you think you can live without plumbing, roads, schools, police, fire departments, or any of the other numerous things taxes pay for. [/QUOTE] Yep. State agencies are funded through state taxes, fees (such as licenses), and federal grants. Federal grants are a [I]huge[/I] part of agency funding There's no way something like the Texas Department of Transportation (AKA the guys that fix and make roads, bridges, rail lines, you know, all that important shit) could operate without either federal grants, or increased taxes. [url]ftp://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot-info/fin/funding_sources.pdf[/url] From the Texas DoT, regarding repairing their infrastructure. 42% of funding is from the federal government.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49252060]Because what's the point, we'll get $350 million a year from the Oil Rigs currently under Federal control. And again, the state has a net loss of $15 to $20 billion a year in federal taxes. [/quote] You do realize that it costs FAR more then that to actually run a country right?
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49252060] I find it funny Hutt River succeed where Western Australia failed.[/QUOTE] Hutt River is a micro-nation and like all micro-nations, are never taken seriously, Hutt River has to abide by commonwealth law WA is a big state, big enough to be taken seriously only that it wasn't WA and Texas are almost identical, both could live without a union economically but both could not live without proper military forces, which you won't have as soon as you cut ties with DC
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