IT BEGINS: Texas Senate is Voting on a REFERENDUM on INDEPENDENCE from the United States today.
351 replies, posted
Broseph your entire conception of how Texas would operate regarding their own independence and their relations to a new foreign USA is nothing more than wishful thinking.
Every nation in the world needs taxation in order to stay afloat. Severing the ties with the US would, on top of the economical loss from losing all of these easy inherent trade networks, mean the state would have to handle the welfare of its citizens entirely on its own. Unless you plan on literally turning your newfound nation into a worse version of the wild west (with even less figures of authority), you're going to have to put up some taxes in here.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49252039]The US wouldn't need to embargo Texas. The moment Texas decides to secede it'll collapse into civil war with the people who don't want to secede. A civil war that the US most certainly will be intervening in since thousands of American lives are at risk.[/QUOTE]
Do you realize your logic, you are saying the people who would want to remain part of the U.S. would rather turn Texas into a war zone, then... I dunno...
[B]SIMPLY PACK UP AND MOVE?[/B]
That's beyond idiotic.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49252094]Do you realize your logic, you are saying the people who would want to remain part of the U.S. would rather turn Texas into a war zone, then... I dunno...
[B]SIMPLY PACK UP AND MOVE?[/B]
That's beyond idiotic.[/QUOTE]
Texas has US patriots who would die for the republic
I'm going to declare myself an independent nation so I dont have to pay taxes but everything else stays the same
how are you going to pay for everything without taxes
why declare independence, wasting everybodies time and money just to avoid a problem of paying slighter higher taxes
scotland had an independence referendum over a year ago and we decided it was stupid to leave, just like how its stupid of texas to leave
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49252094]Do you realize your logic, you are saying the people who would want to remain part of the U.S. would rather turn Texas into a war zone, then... I dunno...
[B]SIMPLY PACK UP AND MOVE?[/B]
That's beyond idiotic.[/QUOTE]
People won't just "simply pack up and leave". Not without conflict if not violence that is.
Not to mention that arguing the economics of an independent Texas is entirely pointless anyways. Again I'd like to point out that this new independent texas is going to have to deal with half of its population of gun toting rednecks being pissed off about seceding from the union. It'll be embroiled in civil war the moment it seceded which would give the US a perfectly valid reason to move the army in and reclaim texas (millions of US citizens being stuck in a warzone being a rather good reason to mobilize the military)
Hypothetically speaking even if Texas did manage to secede what nation in their right mind would establish diplomatic and trade relations with a nation that just seceded from the United States, especially if it's a bitter split which it most likely would be? I don't think most of the important trade nations would take the risk of upsetting the US. You can't expect to have any quality of life if you don't intend to import and export.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49252094]Do you realize your logic, you are saying the people who would want to remain part of the U.S. would rather turn Texas into a war zone, then... I dunno...
[B]SIMPLY PACK UP AND MOVE?[/B]
That's beyond idiotic.[/QUOTE]
Of course they would, they're not just gonna want to up and leave their home in order to stay in the country they live in and love and are probably sworn to protect.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49252094]Do you realize your logic, you are saying the people who would want to remain part of the U.S. would rather turn Texas into a war zone, then... I dunno...
[B]SIMPLY PACK UP AND MOVE?[/B]
That's beyond idiotic.[/QUOTE]
If you think that half of the state of texas is going to leave their homes and properties behind you're delusional.
[QUOTE=Shibbey;49251553]Isn't it illegal on a federal level for a state to secede? I remember being told that[/QUOTE]
Not sure about that bit, but - Texas does not have a right to secede. It's a pretty common mistaken bit of knowledge. They did temporarily, way back when, but on officially joining the US "for realsies this time", they forfeited that right.
We do have the power to split into as many as five separate states if we wanted, but there's not really any reason to do that. :v:
Texas declaring independence will trigger a war, whether you want it or no. It doesn't matter what you do, it doesn't matter what plans you have - a major change like this always results in a war.
This has always been like this, in all countries all over the world, in all time periods. It happened here recently, even though it wasn't voluntary.
There is [b]no[/b] resolve to Texas independence that doesn't involve a very big military conflict. You can and will become an independent country after it's all over, but you should consider that a lot of your infrastructure will be damaged - roads, buildings. It will be good if you'll have at least 20% of industry operating after it.
Why wouldn't suddenly independent Texas introduce 20%+ taxes to cover the expenses of fixing infrastructure after war?
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49252094]Do you realize your logic, you are saying the people who would want to remain part of the U.S. would rather turn Texas into a war zone, then... I dunno...
[B]SIMPLY PACK UP AND MOVE?[/B]
That's beyond idiotic.[/QUOTE]
I don't think a lot of people would be okay with having to leave behind their house, job, family, memories and belongings and travel to another state to start from practically a blank slate because Texas decided to secede without their approval.
I also don't think the same people, who have a culture oriented towards owning guns and using them to defend their property, would do any of the above without putting up a fight.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49252094]Do you realize your logic, you are saying the people who would want to remain part of the U.S. would rather turn Texas into a war zone, then... I dunno...
[B]SIMPLY PACK UP AND MOVE?[/B]
That's beyond idiotic.[/QUOTE]
hey everybody who disagrees with me, leave your homes, jobs, and family because freedom
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49252090]Broseph your entire conception of how Texas would operate regarding their own independence and their relations to a new foreign USA is nothing more than wishful thinking.
Every nation in the world needs taxation in order to stay afloat. Severing the ties with the US would, on top of the economical loss from losing all of these easy inherent trade networks, mean the state would have to handle the welfare of its citizens entirely on its own. Unless you plan on literally turning your newfound nation into a worse version of the wild west (with even less figures of authority), you're going to have to put up some taxes in here.[/QUOTE]
The United States isn't a centralized state like France is, it's a Federal country.
As such Texas is already governed in the same manner on the state level much in the same way as most countries are; We already have a state judiciary, legislature, and executive branch.
All law enforcement, internal matters, and a lot of the social services are already handled by the state as is.
The only thing we don't control is our borders, foreign relations, or have a real military.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49252147]The only thing we don't control is our borders, foreign relations, or have a real military.[/QUOTE]
Ask yourself, are deaths of many people, half the population displaced from their homes and heaps of destroyed infrastructure truly worth your independence?
[QUOTE=Megadave;49251975]I say get rid of texas, admit puerto rico. Get rid of some assholes, and don't have to change the flag.
I do feel for the people in Austin though[/QUOTE]
That really puts everyone under a blanket.
Somebody mentioned power grids and I'd like to point out that Texas already has its own, so that wouldn't be that hard of a switch.
[url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Interconnection[/url]
I think Texas could survive on its own. But I don't think it would be worth it, or legal.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49252147]The United States isn't a centralized state like France is, it's a Federal country.[/QUOTE]
its actually more of a mix of both by this point in time
the federal government has been (and continues to) centralize power, so it's more difficult than you think to disentangle it all
[QUOTE=Mr.Moustachio;49252134]hey everybody who disagrees with me, leave your homes, jobs, and family because freedom[/QUOTE]
Hey I don't want Texas to secede, let go out and start shooting people, destroy businesses and turn my neighborhood into a war zone because 'Murikah.
That's fucking psychotic.
They can ether deal with it, or fuck off to California, it's not like Texas is forcing them to give up their U.S. citizenship.
[QUOTE=BlackPhoenix;49252129]Texas declaring independence will trigger a war?[/QUOTE]
Seems like we're past that now. However Texans probably won't go indie on a serious vote.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49252147]The United States isn't a centralized state like France is, it's a Federal country.
As such Texas is already governed in the same manner on the state level much in the same way as most countries are; We already have a state judiciary, legislature, and executive branch.
All law enforcement, internal matters, and a lot of the social services are already handled by the state as is.
The only thing we don't control is our borders, foreign relations, or have a real military.[/QUOTE]
You keep arguing about state rights but that was decided already.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49252147]
The only thing we don't control is our borders, foreign relations, or have a real military.[/QUOTE]
So you have no actually military or "pro-government forces" yet you want to secede despite knowing that it'll instigate a civil war you have no way of fighting. Furthermore the US WILL intervene if an armed conflict in Texas simply due to the fact that American lives are threatened by being in a Warzone. How will Texas defend itself from this? The police force? Armed militias?
[QUOTE=Swilly;49252010]No. No you wouldn't, you'd be an unrecognized state and [b]no longer American citizens.[/b]
You don't want to leave, you're just flirting with what Puerto Rico has.[/QUOTE]
Last I checked, the federal government doesn't have the power to unilaterally strip people of their US citizenship
[QUOTE=Kyle902;49252013]
Also you seriously think that people who want to stay a part of the US are going to just pack up and leave? Texas would be in a civil war the moment it declared independence. A civil war that is likely going to be directly funded by the US. A civil war thats going to attract thousands of gung-ho militias from all over the states to bring the roudy texans back into the union.[/QUOTE]
There's no reason to assume secession would instantly turn to civil war, the USCivil War didn't start until more than two months after the Confederacy had formed. And if anything, I'd expect more militias to support an independent Texas than not, considering the crowd that typically makes up existing militias.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49252147]The United States isn't a centralized state like France is, it's a Federal country.
As such Texas is already governed in the same manner on the state level much in the same way as most countries are; We already have a state judiciary, legislature, and executive branch.
All law enforcement, internal matters, and a lot of the social services are already handled by the state as is.
The only thing we don't control is our borders, foreign relations, or have a real military.[/QUOTE]
Whether you realize/like it or not, a large portion of your economy, welfare and government system work because of the feral system on top of it.
However, Texas has the power and authority to divide itself into 5 seperate states, with their own decided borders. If half of texas didn't want to secede from the US, they could Balkanise the state into 5 seperate states that either choose to stay in the US, or leave. Independent Texas would then be a Union of Texases, and have is economic power vastly cut down... forcing it back into the union. The US would then have 5 seperate and probably politically salty Texases.
[QUOTE=Xubs;49252188]You're not understanding the point. Most people don't HAVE the ability to pack up and leave for monetary or personal reasons. There is a statistically significant portion of the population that is unable to leave Texas for a number of reasons and I am willing to bet it's nearly a majority. What are you going to do with those people that can't leave but want to stay in a US-State Texas? Just ship em out, against their will?[/QUOTE]
Thats what they did after the US War of Independence. They probably don't care about those people.
It is the right wing that generally have this "love it, or leave it" attitude.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49252169]Hey I don't want Texas to secede, let go out and start shooting people, destroy businesses and turn my neighborhood into a war zone because 'Murikah.
That's fucking psychotic.
They can ether deal with it, or fuck off to California, it's not like Texas is forcing them to give up their U.S. citizenship.[/QUOTE]
People can't, and more than likely won't, up and leave where they are at. From poverty holding them still, to family roots too deep in Texas to want to leave, you can't have people just leave that easily.
[QUOTE=OvB;49252196]However, Texas has the power and authority to divide itself into 5 seperate states, with their own decided borders. If half of texas didn't want to secede from the US, they could Balkanise the state into 5 seperate states that either choose to stay in the US, or leave. Independent Texas would then be a Union of Texases, and have is economic power vastly cut down... forcing it back into the union. The US would then have 5 seperate and probably politically salty Texases.[/QUOTE]
But they'd have more representation if that happened?
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49252169]Hey I don't want Texas to secede, let go out and start shooting people, destroy businesses and turn my neighborhood into a war zone because 'Murikah.[/quote]
More like "I'm not pledging allegiance to Texas and I sure as fuck ain't going to leave my property".
[quote]
That's fucking psychotic.[/quote]
Not in the least. Do you expect fucking TEXANS of all people to let someone come in and evict them from their house by force?
[quote]
They can ether deal with it, or fuck off to California, it's not like Texas is forcing them to give up their U.S. citizenship.[/QUOTE]
Lol why California? And you're right they aren't asking them to renounce their citizenship. They're asking them to abandon all their property and all of their assets that can't move.
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