• IT BEGINS: Texas Senate is Voting on a REFERENDUM on INDEPENDENCE from the United States today.
    351 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49252831]Hating them and burning their symbol =/= Going out and shooting them because of what they believe in.[/QUOTE] So harassment, persecution and hatred is A-Okay as long as absolutely zero deaths are involved. Yeah okay you sound like a reasonable individual. Please tell us about how policemen are immune to molotov cocktails.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49252642]And I tore that post apart point by point, especially the stupid points you made like what happens if someone wants to become Texan after Texas becomes independent or your lack of basic knowledge about how the Federal System works in America as shown by you asking how our courts will function without the Federal Government, when the Federal Government has absolutely nothing to do with the state judicial systems.[/QUOTE] which isn't stupid lol. answer me, what happens if somebody wants to become Texan after Texas becomes a state? how do they immigrate to it? what about people who want to rescind Texan citizenship? what about birthright, what about people who aren't US citizens but are residing in Texas?you can't answer this simple question, and this is a fundamental question about statehood, how do people incorporate to it and de-incorporate from it? what makes a Texan, a Texan? the US can answer this, the US can very clearly tell you how to become an American, and who's an American by right, every sovereign state can, yet your proposed state does not contemplate this, somehow. and, just so you know, there is such thing as a federal crime, and there are people indicted in Texas under federal laws, while yeah, a majority of crimes are prosecuted under state law, you do not have the answers as to what happens with the jurisprudence of federal law. what happens to people who, for example, were indicted under federal crimes in Texas by a federal court, that are no longer crimes due to the state constitution not contemplating them? does that jurisdiction no longer apply? would there be a retrial, and even then, on what grounds? also to note, you completely ignored the questions on currency and finance, you don't know what the economy of an independent Texas would look like, same way you don't know what the military of an independent Texas would look like, or how would the diplomacy of an independent Texas would work and how it would be represented, you don't know how to solve the hundreds of loopholes secession generates in the judicial system. why are you pretending to subject people to vote on a political project of which you don't know jack about? or do you pretend to make an independent Texas first, and then find the solution to all those crucial matters?
I was born in Canada, with American citizenship from birth. If I live in Texas when they secede, and get grandfathered into Texian citizenship, would I have three citizenships?
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49252780]Yes, if you are going out and shooting people because they didn't vote the way you want them to, that's the definition of terrorism and you should be killed.[/QUOTE] what if the vote for independence is 49.9% for independence and 50.1% against
[QUOTE=OvB;49252993]I was born in Canada, with American citizenship from birth. If I live in Texas when they secede, and get grandfathered into Texian citizenship, would I have three citizenships?[/QUOTE] What I would see happening is the US giving anyone in Texas x days to get out before they revoke all their US citizenship.
[QUOTE=Jund;49252824]you'll lose all federal funding, federal programs, access to all federal land and property (unless you want to invade the US LOL).[/QUOTE] Texas pays more than it gets back in Federal Funding so it would be a net-gain of 10 to 20 billion dollars a year if Texas left. As for the land, they paid for it, and they already pay the state property taxes on their land as is; So why should we give a fuck about them? The only federal entity we don't already have a state analog to is the Postal Service. [QUOTE=Jund;49252824]you'll have to deal with border security, you'll be sandwiched between one country that hates you and one that dislikes you. no one will recognize you (the csa was the south's best shot and even then no one gave a shit). no one will trade with you because the US hates you.[/QUOTE] We already deal with border security as is, the border patrol is ineffective anyway. And embargoing Texas would be economic and political suicide because if you cut off trade with Texas you lose 25% of all gasoline in the United States, meanwhile because we hold 1 out of 8 oil refineries in the world there's plenty of countries that wouldn't mind doing business with us. [QUOTE=Jund;49252824]every single interstate connection will be cut off, all out of state companies will no longer be able to function. you will literally be living like cavemen.[/QUOTE] Good luck. [QUOTE]Texas's food output rankings in the United States. 1 - Cotton & cottonseed, $1.6 billion 1 - Beef, $855 million 1 - Hides & skins, $431 million 2 - Seeds for planting, $244 million 4 - Tree nuts, $66 million 4 - Rice, $119 million 6 - Milk and milk products, $248 million 9 - Wheat, $286 million 10 - Grain products, $171 million 11 - Fresh fruits, $54 million 13 - Corn, $157 million 13 - Sugar, $27 million 15 - Fresh vegetables, $39 million[/QUOTE] [url]https://texasagriculture.gov/About/TexasAgStats.aspx[/url] [QUOTE]Texas's Energy output rankings in the United States. 1 - Total Energy 1 - Crude Oil 1 -Natural Gas 1 - Electricity 6 - Coal[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=TX[/url] [QUOTE]Texas Contribution to U.S. Exports 46.5% - Top 25 Commodities[/QUOTE] [IMG]http://www.willisms.com/archives/texasexportsmorethanamerica.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l2qnoZUUgaI/UR5r10Y95BI/AAAAAAAACOA/EKQXMcLs8Ls/s1600/State+Export+Totals.png[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.willisms.com/archives/realtexasexports.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.jsharf.com/view/images/California-Texas/ExportsPercentOfStateGDP.gif[/IMG][IMG]http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/business/Milken_Texas_Destination.PNG[/IMG] [url]http://piers.com/Texas/images/charts.jpg[/url] [IMG]http://visualeconomics.creditloan.com/media/uploads/sites/4/2015/10/chinaexports_r31.png[/IMG] [IMG]http://precision-group.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/nations_top_exports_infographic.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://cdn4.areadevelopment.com/static_images/article/manufacturing-jobs-by-state-bls-nov2012.png[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.datafoundry.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/power_grid_map.png[/IMG] Yeah, I'm sure we're gonna be reduced to the stone age if the US embargoes us, I hope you enjoy $6/dollar a gallon gasoline. [editline]5th December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49253002]what if the vote for independence is 49.9% for independence and 50.1% against[/QUOTE] This is why you set the threshold to 60%, though tell that to Quebec and Catalonia. Still isn't an excuse for terrorism.
So Texas can be independent if they wanted too, but whats the point, at all? Why even want to leave, what do you even gain, what, extra few dollars, that's a shit reason to leave.
[QUOTE=jordguitar;49253034]What I would see happening is the US giving anyone in Texas x days to get out before they revoke all their US citizenship.[/QUOTE] They can't, they tried to do that when the town of Rio Rico was handed over to Mexico in 1970s and the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled it unconstitutional to strip a person of U.S. citizenship simply because their place of birth, which was US territory at the time of birth, is now in a foreign country. What's going to happen is a lot of people are going to become dual citizens, as well as their children born after the date of secession, and they will probably have to follow the rule most dual citizens have to follow, that is when you turn 18 you have to fill out paperwork with the state department by the time you turn 21 to keep your citizenship.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49253062]This is why you set the threshold to 60%, though tell that to Quebec and Catalonia. Still isn't an excuse for terrorism.[/QUOTE] i like how you keep using the term terrorism like that i doubt texas is ever going to become independent unless the US collapses
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49253163]They can't, they tried to do that when the town of Rio Rico was handed over to Mexico in 1970s and the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled it unconstitutional to strip a person of U.S. citizenship simply because their place of birth, which was US territory at the time of birth, is now in a foreign country. What's going to happen is a lot of people are going to become dual citizens, as well as their children born after the date of secession, and they will probably have to follow the rule most dual citizens have to follow, that is when you turn 18 you have to fill out paperwork with the state department by the time you turn 21 to keep your citizenship.[/QUOTE] It actually found that people born there between 1906 and 1972 didn't have citizenship to begin with because it wasn't within a US border (the Rio Grande being the legal border rather than any specific land markers, and the river having switched course) and it was under the protection of the Mexican government. It was determined, however, not to deport them if they wanted to move north. Citizenship was never granted nor revoked based on that decision.
[QUOTE=Intoxicated Spy;49253112]So Texas can be independent if they wanted too, but whats the point, at all? Why even want to leave, what do you even gain, what, extra few dollars, that's a shit reason to leave.[/QUOTE] I can see a lot of investment in Texas because of our oil refineries, especially by China, and a lot of investment by Russia too because they pretty much pissed everyone they buy food from, and it'll suit them very well politically. Not only that, but they'll be a lot of interest by car manufacturers in Texas too, especially the Japanese because of the Chicken Tax being removed, it will result in a boon to them, and not only that, but European car makers might take it as an opportunity too since we're probably not going to be enforcing the U.S. standards which is a barrier to most European companies from selling cars in the US, like Renault, Peugeot, and Euro-Spec Volkwagens and BMWs which are sold in Mexico but not America.
you can't be seriously pulling economic data from when texas is still a state, as if it'll stay the same if it seceded. also acting like the US would be so dependent on texan oil that the most powerful nation in the world will get on its knees to become texas' bitch is extremely laughable. assuming the US doesn't just retake the land day one, what's stopping it from blockading texas ports? you have no navy or air force. what are those charts supposed to be saying anyway, "we have exports"? no shit, the DPRK can export too, but at least they have a military and a superpower ally, so you'll actually end up worse than they are. if anything, showing how dependent texas' economy is on exports to the rest of the US/internationally should show why it's a moronic idea to set all its global relations to zero.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49253163]They can't, they tried to do that when the town of Rio Rico was handed over to Mexico in 1970s and the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled it unconstitutional to strip a person of U.S. citizenship simply because their place of birth, which was US territory at the time of birth, is now in a foreign country. What's going to happen is a lot of people are going to become dual citizens, as well as their children born after the date of secession, and they will probably have to follow the rule most dual citizens have to follow, that is when you turn 18 you have to fill out paperwork with the state department by the time you turn 21 to keep your citizenship.[/QUOTE] You talk about this like it's something that's just going to happen. Someone is basically voting on creating an opinion poll on the notion that texas should be independent because "texas best state of us, fuck tax".
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49252094]Do you realize your logic, you are saying the people who would want to remain part of the U.S. would rather turn Texas into a war zone, then... I dunno... [B]SIMPLY PACK UP AND MOVE?[/B] That's beyond idiotic.[/QUOTE] "HEY GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF HERE, I DON'T CARE YOU HAVE A LIFE HERE, WE DON'T WANT TO PAY TAXES" This is the extent of your logic.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49253228]It actually found that people born there between 1906 and 1972 didn't have citizenship to begin with because it wasn't within a US border (the Rio Grande being the border rather than any land markers and having switched course) and it was under the protection of the Mexican government. It was determined, however, not to deport them if they wanted to move north. Citizenship was never granted nor revoked based on that decision.[/QUOTE] No, according to the Treaty of 1884 Rio Rico was legally part of the United States since the diversion was man-made and not natural, but because people are fucking stupid and think the Rio Grande = Border, it ended up being administered by Mexico, until it was discovered in the 1960s it was still technically American, at which point the U.S. Officially ceded it to Mexico. This is also why New Mexico took us to the to the Supreme Court for this land, because the agreement we signed with the U.S. in 1850 set the border at the river as was [I]at the time of the signing[/I], they lost, which is why we have land to the west of the Rio Grande now. [IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a9/Country_Club_Area.jpg/350px-Country_Club_Area.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49253062]And embargoing Texas would be economic and political suicide because if you cut off trade with Texas you lose 25% of all gasoline in the United States, meanwhile because we hold 1 out of 8 oil refineries in the world there's plenty of countries that wouldn't mind doing business with us.[/QUOTE] Isn't all of the speculation on how Texas would function as an independent nation pointless? The lawmakers/politicians responsible for pushing secession would be rotting in prison long before any of these factors would need to be considered, not to mention it assumes a scenario where the US just lets them go peacefully. When Maryland wanted to join the south, federal troops were deployed and all of the pro-confederate members of the general assembly were arrested. The White House would come down like a sledgehammer on Texas if it appeared that they were serious about secession. You'd be seeing lawmakers being frogmarched before the end of the workday.
and no shit texas pays more than it gets back in federal funding, that's usually what happens when you pay for federal programs and protection through the military
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49252094]Do you realize your logic, you are saying the people who would want to remain part of the U.S. would rather turn Texas into a war zone, then... I dunno... [B]SIMPLY PACK UP AND MOVE?[/B] That's beyond idiotic.[/QUOTE] Can't you just move? Couldn't just everyone who doesn't want to pay taxes just move to Turkmenistan, with it's 8% tax rate?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49253336]"HEY GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF HERE, I DON'T CARE YOU HAVE A LIFE HERE, WE DON'T WANT TO PAY TAXES" This is the extent of your logic.[/QUOTE] Yeah, if you want to commit the literal definition of terrorism to force the majority to bind to your will, you need to get the fuck out.
[QUOTE=Jund;49253299]you can't be seriously pulling economic data from when texas is still a state, as if it'll stay the same if it seceded. also acting like the US would be so dependent on texan oil that the most powerful nation in the world will get on its knees to become texas' bitch is extremely laughable. assuming the US doesn't just retake the land day one, what's stopping it from blockading texas ports? you have no navy or air force. what are those charts supposed to be saying anyway, "we have exports"? no shit, the DPRK can export too, but at least they have a military and a superpower ally, so you'll actually end up worse than they are. if anything, showing how dependent texas' economy is on exports to the rest of the US/internationally should show why it's a moronic idea to set all its global relations to zero.[/QUOTE] Texas refineries are among the biggest in the world. More than the US oil industry depends on them. Shutting them down would be a shit show.
[QUOTE=Omali;49253348]Isn't all of the speculation on how Texas would function as an independent nation pointless? The lawmakers/politicians responsible for pushing secession would be rotting in prison long before any of these factors would need to be considered, not to mention it assumes a scenario where the US just lets them go peacefully. When Maryland wanted to join the south, federal troops were deployed and all of the pro-confederate members of the general assembly were arrested. The White House would come down like a sledgehammer on Texas if it appeared that they were serious about secession. You'd be seeing lawmakers being frogmarched before the end of the workday.[/QUOTE] I thought in Maryland no side had a majority in that debate, which is why they now have that god tier flag now.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49252485]Then they can fucking deal with it like the People who refuse to pledge allegiance to America because Obama is President. Nobody is forcing them to do shit, if they want to live in the U.S., they still have their U.S. passport, they're free to fucking leave, beyond that, you're the one saying they are going to go out and start shooting people over Texas leaving the United States following a free vote, and you know what, that's completely illogical and psychotic, I'm not going to argue with that. What I'm going to do instead is say something I think a lot of people would agree with. [B]Whoever decides to respond to [U][I]democracy[/I][/U] with [U][I]violence[/I][/U] deserves to forfeit their life.[/B][/QUOTE] You're pretty much 100% behind economic strong armed robbery because YOU don't want to pay fucking taxes I literally cannot understand you. You don't care if people lose their homes, their money, property, and become impoverished, so long as YOU don't have to pay fucking taxes!? Fuck man.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49253363]Yeah, if you want to commit the literal definition of terrorism to force the majority to bind to your will, you need to get the fuck out.[/QUOTE] Why don't you move to somewhere you don't need to pay taxes?
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49253363]Yeah, if you want to commit the literal definition of terrorism to force the majority to bind to your will, you need to get the fuck out.[/QUOTE] I feel like you really, REALLY, fundamentally speaking, at the most base level, do not understand what you're asking for at ANY level.
[QUOTE=OvB;49253368]Texas refineries are among the biggest in the world. More than the US oil industry depends on them. Shutting them down would be a shit show.[/QUOTE] Yeah and I bet you China will recognize us in a heartbeat to get a majority stake in them, while Russia recognizes us just to fuck with the west.
Why is it "YOUR" state? Why do THEY have to leave? Why don't YOU have to leave? Why do THEY have to lose their homes, their property, and lose the lives they've lead there because you think, politically speaking, Texas is it's own country, and you don't want to pay taxes. How does that work? How do you not see yourself as the ultimate villain here trying to take homes from people because YOU hate taxes? Something that will still happen to you in your so called Free Texas. You will still be taxed. It's a basic foundation of governance. I don't think you understand what that word even means.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49253386]Yeah and I bet you China will recognize us in a heartbeat to get a majority stake in them, while Russia recognizes us just to fuck with the west.[/QUOTE] Man yeah it really sounds like being butt buddies with China and Russia is a good strategy so close to USA. Wasn't there some other country that had some issues because of this?
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49253386]Yeah and I bet you China will recognize us in a heartbeat to get a majority stake in them, while Russia recognizes us just to fuck with the west.[/QUOTE] Ah yes, political economic turmoil in the form of global unrest over trade issues because "I DON'T WANT TO PAY FUCKING TAXES" So worth it. It's so worth it to endanger the entire west for your desire to not pay taxes.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;49253363]Yeah, if you want to commit the literal definition of terrorism to force the majority to bind to your will, you need to get the fuck out.[/QUOTE] Is this all because of the fact that you simply hate paying taxes? Shit dude, fuck anyone that would rather not be forced to leave, gotta get off scott free on taxes when I bet you anything in this planet that if Texas went solo, they'd have some form of tax implemented.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49253400]Ah yes, political economic turmoil in the form of global unrest over trade issues because "I DON'T WANT TO PAY FUCKING TAXES" So worth it. It's so worth it to endanger the entire west for your desire to not pay taxes.[/QUOTE] I don't think you understand. We're talking about 25% more money.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.