• Prisoners will soon have to fund their stay in prison
    223 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;33707079]I agree with you on the whole, but one tiny, teensy, itsy bitsy thing- you're operating under the assumption that our prison system has a purpose to rehabilitate. Some people operate under the assumption that by the time you've reached prison (i.e. you committed a felony and it's time to move on up from cozy jail to bumfuck row) that you're not capable nor deserving of being rehabilitated through any methods except your own force of will, and that your time there is entirely to punish and contain you. It's not "not understanding the justice system" when you have different goals, even if those goals are fucking crazy.[/QUOTE] No, they still don't understand the justice system. If they did, then they would recognize that this system just causes MORE crime. Life is hard enough for former prisoners without this making it even more difficult. This path causes more crime, more pain, and costs far more. It hurts [I]everyone.[/I]
[QUOTE=Seiteki;33693637]What happens if they don't pay? They go to jail? Kicked out?[/QUOTE] [quote] the county has the ability to garnish wages and place liens on homes under the ordinance[/quote] You can't exactly refuse to have your wages garnished.
[QUOTE=Clementine;33707278]Some form of sophisticated irony?[/QUOTE] Do not misinterpret my reasoning. A functional justice system is simply practical. As I said, less crime, less suffering, less overall cost. I am not, however, some starry eyed pacifist. While I object to a government body being given the right to take the lives of its citizens, do not mistake that for believing that nobody deserves to die. Tons of people deserve to die. Assholes who pass destructive and irresponsible laws are among the worst. A gunman can, at best, shoot a few people, but a politician can bring about untold suffering for many years in office, feeding off the ignorance and fears of his constituents to retain his power. They can ruin tens of millions of lives with their malice and greed. People will die because of this. Lives will be ruined. Prisoners will be caught in an endless cycle of incarceration.
[QUOTE=GunFox;33707460]Do not misinterpret my reasoning. A functional justice system is simply practical. As I said, less crime, less suffering, less overall cost. [/QUOTE] Practical for everyone but those who have this money going directly into their pockets.
They wouldn't be short on cash if they didn't have the damn death penalty. [URL="http://deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty"]If the death penalty in California was prohibited they would save over $100 million dollars per year.[/URL] That would be [URL="http://www.doc.sc.gov/faqs.jsp"]enough to build a high security prison that holds 1500 people[/URL] [B]every year.[/B] A whole new prison would definitely ease the stress of overcrowding they might face.
[QUOTE=AceOfDivine;33704255]Agree but only for high security prisons. There's no reason to punish a weed smoker or a petty thief like that really.[/QUOTE] Those people go to jail, not prison. They are two very different things.
[QUOTE=Aetna;33707604]Those people go to jail, not prison. They are two very different things.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://sheriff.org/faqs/displayfaq.cfm?id=4f892698-5c5d-40f8-b159-c9a0b6ed66f3"]I learned something new today.[/URL]
[QUOTE=GunFox;33707331]No, they still don't understand the justice system. If they did, then they would recognize that this system just causes MORE crime.[/QUOTE] I don't mean to be that way, but can you actually [I]prove[/I] recidivism can be meaningfully increased or decreased for a given prison by changes like this? Because last I knew, you could peg recidivism rates by crime and demographic and rates in prison populations based on their contents, but nobody had anything demonstrating how you actually treat a prisoner does or doesn't change recidivism that accounts for that.
isn't this extortion?
[QUOTE=jgerm529;33705904]How much do you want do bet?[/QUOTE] how much do [i]you[/i] want to bet that you just said that it's OK that prisoners are raped and that they should deal with it? hundo? k. I win, pay up.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;33707908]I don't mean to be that way, but can you actually [I]prove[/I] recidivism can be meaningfully increased or decreased for a given prison by changes like this? Because last I knew, you could peg recidivism rates by crime and demographic and rates in prison populations based on their contents, but nobody had anything demonstrating how you actually treat a prisoner does or doesn't change recidivism that accounts for that.[/QUOTE] You are making it more complicated than it needs to be, although I understand your train of thought. I assume we can both agree that ex-cons do not obtain the best of jobs upon exiting prison. In some cases, they can certainly catch a break or put in a ridiculous amount of effort, but generally speaking, they do not have a lot of social support or the means to obtain a job to begin with, much less one with a conviction on their record. As a result, ex-cons are often poor. Agreed? Good. So that brings us to point two: Poverty is generally associated with increased crime rates. See where I am going? You are taking a portion of the population that is already dirt poor and making them even MORE poor. That will result in an increase in crime regardless of pretty much any other factor. Once you push someone that far into the dirt using the system, they are no longer going to view the system as a valid means of control and will rebel. Research would be redundant in this case. There is plenty out there that will tell you poverty is heavily linked to crime. I imagine there is also plenty out there that will tell you ex-cons do not obtain quality employment. My girlfriend is a criminologist and is finishing up her dissertation on the elements of successful parole (Broken down by sex, as the elements of success are different for each sex. Really big field right now. Lots of research money trying to figure out how to make parole successful.) and a large part of it was interviewing and tracking the progress of hundreds of parolees. These guys and gals almost universally live so far below the federal poverty line (Federal poverty line is roughly half of what any scholar will tell you is ACTUALLY the poverty line. You need about twice as much income as the federal government says you do to stop living in poverty) that it is amazing that they manage to feed themselves, much less have a place to live. Many of them are making significantly less than 400 dollars a month. There is nothing you can take from a budget of 400 bucks a month. Literally there is no amount of available funds to take from that. Two months in jail will net you over 8 thousand dollars of debt. That is insane.
[QUOTE=KorJax;33702086]I think you are looking too deep into this. The government wouldn't be buying labor job positions, I'm simply stating that if prisoners did forced community service positions or did a bunch of jobs that imrpoved state-funded infrastructure so the government didn't have to spend even MORE money contracting for doing those same exact things, a prisoner would essentually "pay" for their government cost to keep them in prison, while also keeping local government/state owned infrastructure in tip top shape. And when prisoners get out, they will hopefully have solid work ethic and skills they can take into their life to make them better people, seeing as the entire tiem they were in prison they were busy working. The only downside is that the companies that normally get contracted for such things will now only rely on private parties to do their work for. While not great, it doesn't mean jobs in that sector for people who want to do them will instantly vanish.[/QUOTE] If the government has job openings they should be hiring people for them, not tapping into slave labour to get them done. I don't understand what's disagreeable about this.
[QUOTE=GunFox;33708544]You are making it more complicated than it needs to be[/QUOTE] I'm an engineer, I make everything complicated. My point is, you're talking ideology. The "cons can't get a job, ergo poor cons, ergo crime" thing is circular. You can just as easily argue from recidivism statistics that a con is x% likely to commit a crime after release no matter what, ergo nobody hires them, and thus the goal isn't reform but reducing their impact on society across the span of their lives. There's no real hard proof here right now due to the clusterfuck that is our prison system and lack of social interest leading to little of non-specialized research. You would need to be able to say you proved these recidivism rates have statistically significant variances based on region and unemployment and yadda yadda on a scale nobody's attempted to yet. I know lawyers who honestly believe a person, past felony conviction one, is a doomed soul, and I've never seen anybody disprove the assertion. Granted, it has no hard proof...but neither does the claim that poverty > felony > more poverty > more felonies.
Seriously, the reason most crimes happen is due to lack of money, so let's make them lack even more money! GREAT IDEA GUYS! /sarcasm
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;33708419]how much do [i]you[/i] want to bet that you just said that it's OK that prisoners are raped and that they should deal with it? hundo? k. I win, pay up.[/QUOTE] Yea I did say its ok and guess what? Alot of them deserve it. My brother is a CO at the county jail how about you go on a shift with him and come back telling me that the inmates are good inocent people.
[QUOTE=Seiteki;33693637]What happens if they don't pay? They go to jail? Kicked out?[/QUOTE] I'd assume that if you don't/can't pay then you get sent to prison instead of jail.
[QUOTE=jgerm529;33712333]Yea I did say its ok and guess what? Alot of them deserve it. My brother is a CO at the county jail how about you go on a shift with him and come back telling me that the inmates are good inocent people.[/QUOTE] Stop calling the alot, he's trying to sleep.
[QUOTE=jgerm529;33712333]Yea I did say its ok and guess what? Alot of them deserve it. My brother is a CO at the county jail how about you go on a shift with him and come back telling me that the inmates are good inocent people.[/QUOTE] hahahahha some people deserve rape??? you're fucked in the head lol. obviously they're not innocent and alot of them aren't good people, but that doesn't change the fact that they ARE people.
[QUOTE=jgerm529;33712333]Yea I did say its ok and guess what? Alot of them deserve it. My brother is a CO at the county jail how about you go on a shift with him and come back telling me that the inmates are good inocent people.[/QUOTE] What is the point of having sentences for specific crimes if you're just going to look at further abuse and say 'they deserved it anyway'?
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;33709148]I'm an engineer, I make everything complicated. My point is, you're talking ideology. The "cons can't get a job, ergo poor cons, ergo crime" thing is circular. You can just as easily argue from recidivism statistics that a con is x% likely to commit a crime after release no matter what, ergo nobody hires them, and thus the goal isn't reform but reducing their impact on society across the span of their lives. There's no real hard proof here right now due to the clusterfuck that is our prison system and lack of social interest leading to little of non-specialized research. You would need to be able to say you proved these recidivism rates have statistically significant variances based on region and unemployment and yadda yadda on a scale nobody's attempted to yet. I know lawyers who honestly believe a person, past felony conviction one, is a doomed soul, and I've never seen anybody disprove the assertion. Granted, it has no hard proof...but neither does the claim that poverty > felony > more poverty > more felonies.[/QUOTE] This isn't engineering, this is criminology. There is no hard proof or magical equation. Humans are squishy and crazy. Hell, Lyng's theory of edgework proposes that some people commit crimes simply because their lives are comfortable (obvious simplification but even so). [quote]You can just as easily argue from recidivism statistics that a con is x% likely to commit a crime after release no matter what[/quote] You mean if you discount all the data on lower rates of recidivism dependent on the quality of prison and access to education, recreation, rehabilitation and so on? Honestly go to google scholar, and look it up (because I don't want to have to find the papers myself and quote them to you) [editline]14th December 2011[/editline] Also those lawyers are fucking demented because there are plenty of people who commit felonies without being criminalized hell the last two American presidents would have been felons if they were busted for their cocaine use
[QUOTE=Spooter;33694468]So I read the article, and I have a quick question for you. Where do private companies come into this? The decision was made by the county, which was forced into it's precarious financial position regarding prisoners by the state, which was forced to change it's policies on prisoners by the Supreme court. So I ask you, where do private companies come into this? Because, you know, that's what privatized means. While I'm at it, I'll ask you a few other questions. Did you actually read the whole article? Or just the headline? Do you EVER read the whole article? Did you know what privatized meant when you posted? Feel free to answer these in any order.[/QUOTE] Never heard of the Lobby industry? The private prison, security guard union and construction companies have long since been paying a very shiny penny for some very hefty and friendly legislation.
I think they're going too far to fuck prisoners over. I'd be okay with requiring them to do some kind of work as "payment" for their stay in prison. Stuff like construction of things within in the prison that would normally be contracted out, working at factories, etc. Some kind of normal job that would have part of it's wages going towards living necessities in prison, with enough left over as pocket money.
[QUOTE=Contag;33712639]You mean if you discount all the data on lower rates of recidivism dependent on the quality of prison and access to education, recreation, rehabilitation and so on? Honestly go to google scholar, and look it up (because I don't want to have to find the papers myself and quote them to you)[/QUOTE] I look up "recidivism and access to education", I get sensationalist abstracts with no data and weak articles suggesting "well there might be a correlation maybe sorta but we can't really peg it also there's at least one massive flaw we made like forgetting to seperate dudes and chicks." Recreation, and I get wonderful things like "The authors advise that although it is tempting to suggest that rehabilitative initiatives were responsible for the LSI-R subcomponent score reductions, no programmatic data were available to provide a precise estimate of the role of programming in reducing client risk/need levels. Until these data are available, the link between programming and the reductions in LSI-R scores must remain tentative." If you can find me one with some actual non-bullshit datums hit me the fuck up.
You hear that, lifelong druggies and dealers of Riverside? If you can't pay, you don't get charged. Now you have a real excuse for not getting a steady job!
do not pass go [editline]14th December 2011[/editline] lest you want to pay me for your stay, infidel
[QUOTE=Zeke129;33712365]Stop calling the alot, he's trying to sleep.[/QUOTE] [img]http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/180/alotz.png[/img] Nope, too late, woke him up.
[QUOTE=jgerm529;33712333]Yea I did say its ok and guess what? Alot of them deserve it. My brother is a CO at the county jail how about you go on a shift with him and come back telling me that the inmates are good inocent people.[/QUOTE] Jesus fucking christ you are retarded. I'm friends with people who have had to mug people and break into homes because they were driven to it as their last option and they still feel shit about it. There is not always a fucking way to get money, especially in big cities as noone will trust some random dude to do a job for them and even if there is, you don't make nearly enough money to support yourself and/or family. No shit inmates aren't innocence you dense fuck but a lot of inmates aren't evil people. Most of the ones who are actually bad in my opinion are people who are in there for murder and rape, not car thiefs and shoplifters. How about you realise that the actual world is quite different to what you have experienced in your life so far.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;33713946]I look up "recidivism and access to education", I get sensationalist abstracts with no data and weak articles suggesting "well there might be a correlation maybe sorta but we can't really peg it also there's at least one massive flaw we made like forgetting to seperate dudes and chicks." Recreation, and I get wonderful things like "The authors advise that although it is tempting to suggest that rehabilitative initiatives were responsible for the LSI-R subcomponent score reductions, no programmatic data were available to provide a precise estimate of the role of programming in reducing client risk/need levels. Until these data are available, the link between programming and the reductions in LSI-R scores must remain tentative." If you can find me one with some actual non-bullshit datums hit me the fuck up.[/QUOTE] look harder [editline]14th December 2011[/editline] not sure where the fuck you got that study from either it wasn't in the [I]first five hundred[/I] results I got from those search terms [editline]14th December 2011[/editline] furthermore that's on a piece about community corrections we're talking about non-community, ie custodial corrections here jesus christ what are you doing?
[QUOTE=Contag;33714944]look harder [editline]14th December 2011[/editline] not sure where the fuck you got that study from either it wasn't in the [I]first five hundred[/I] results I got from those search terms [editline]14th December 2011[/editline] furthermore that's on a piece about community corrections we're talking about non-community, ie custodial corrections here jesus christ what are you doing?[/QUOTE] How about you post the damn data? You cited it, ain't [I]my[/I] job to provide it.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;33716317]How about you post the damn data? You cited it, ain't [I]my[/I] job to provide it.[/QUOTE] you're getting angry because you seem to have poor search skills and great skills at using irrelevant info? I [I]know[/I] it's what the literature supports, and I gain nothing from proving it to you, except perhaps changing your view I'm trying to see if it's worth typing the shit out, and as far as I can see, it's not. would anyone else like to read it?
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.