• ICE agents eat breakfast, compliment chef, then arrest 3 workers at Michigan restaurant
    55 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Nookyava;52277862]My main issue is that they're illegal. Immigrants have worked their asses off to become citizens of the states by studying our history, government, and taking tests. I have no problem against those here legally. Sorry for the long post - just wanted to try and address everyone. I can see your points though.[/QUOTE] The problem comes from the fact that while some people do get in on Visas, the USA has historically had one of the most painfully difficult immigration practices in the western world combined with the fact that it shares a massive border with a nation that has been in an open state of collapse for the past two decades. Until Mexico isn't constantly consumed by what is in essence a war immigration isn't going to slow down. And since the road to legal immigration is long and painful and unobtainable by many, they're going to come illegally.
[QUOTE=JeSuisIkea;52277803]Yeah but even people who really need work probably aren't going to be taking the job that makes you work 16 hour days for below minimum wage with no benefits or hope for advancement. It's not really something most citizens are interested in for good reason, the only reason those jobs exist is because there is a population of people not protected by workplace laws that are open to exploitation.[/QUOTE] Then those jobs either need to improve their compensation until people will do them, or those jobs need to go. But then again, why would people raise compensation for these jobs when they have a supply of people who are willing to be exploited? [QUOTE=JeSuisIkea;52277920]The problem comes from the fact that while some people do get in on Visas, the USA has historically had one of the most painfully difficult immigration practices in the western world combined with the fact that it shares a massive border with a nation that has been in an open state of collapse for the past two decades. Until Mexico isn't constantly consumed by what is in essence a war immigration isn't going to slow down. And since the road to legal immigration is long and painful and unobtainable by many, they're going to come illegally.[/QUOTE] Getting millions of dollars is long, painful, and unobtainable by many. Should we change our laws on robbing banks? Immigration difficulty is not an excuse for illegally immigrating.
Trump's very own Gestapo at it again, I see.
[QUOTE=JeSuisIkea;52277920]The problem comes from the fact that while some people do get in on Visas, the USA has historically had one of the most painfully difficult immigration practices in the western world combined with the fact that it shares a massive border with a nation that has been in an open state of collapse for the past two decades. Until Mexico isn't constantly consumed by what is in essence a war immigration isn't going to slow down. And since the road to legal immigration is long and painful and unobtainable by many, they're going to come illegally.[/QUOTE] I can believe that, however what would be your alternative?
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;52277937]Getting millions of dollars is long, painful, and unobtainable by many. Should we change our laws on robbing banks? Immigration difficulty is not an excuse for illegally immigrating.[/QUOTE] the fact that you think illegal immigration is tantamount to bank robbery underlines how little you know about economics also apparently jobs are exploitation now :v
[QUOTE=Nookyava;52277976]I can believe that, however what would be your alternative?[/QUOTE] I'd say this is controversial but: Relaxing our immigration policy's stingyness from allied neighboring countries at the very least. My logic being 'if they're going to find a way here anyway, there's no sense in not taking taxes from them'.
[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52278008]I'd say this is controversial but: Relaxing our immigration policy's stingyness from allied neighboring countries at the very least. My logic being 'if they're going to find a way here anyway, there's no sense in not taking taxes from them'.[/QUOTE] I could see that working, and if what Scorpio said is anything to go by - more residents means more jobs. We'll need more housing so construction jobs will also open up, and more demand for supply will also provide more jobs.
[QUOTE=Nookyava;52278022]I could see that working, and if what Scorpio said is anything to go by - more residents means more jobs. We'll need more housing so construction jobs will also open up, and more demand for supply will also provide more jobs.[/QUOTE] That isn't to say that immigration is all gumdrops and ice cream. While everyone in society benefits from it, specific groups are adversely effected. Anyone who's directly competing with immigrants for jobs is going to end up with lower wages and fewer job opportunities, assuming that they're incapable of working positions that immigrants can't. It's kinda like automation. If you're incapable of doing anything more complicated than manufacturing line assembly, automation is pretty bad for you. For everyone else, which is the vast majority of society, it's great.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;52278066]That isn't to say that immigration is all gumdrops and ice cream. While everyone in society benefits from it, specific groups are adversely effected. Anyone who's directly competing with immigrants for jobs is going to end up with lower wages and fewer job opportunities, assuming that they're incapable of working positions that immigrants can't. It's kinda like automation. If you're incapable of doing anything more complicated than manufacturing line assembly, automation is pretty bad for you. For everyone else, which is the vast majority of society, it's great.[/QUOTE] So what would be the way to go about this then? It sounds like if we lax immigration policies then we risk hurting job values, but if we don't they're still going to get in regardless.
Oh sweet more minimum wage jobs for American citizens to take up. /s Fuck outta here, don't act like this method is saving American jobs that Americans are too prideful to work anyway. Stop acting pretentious and act like this is the best solution.
I'm not sure there is one good way to go about it. If you accept them more readily we get more taxes paid and less deportation (and less money spent on deportation enforcement etc) but you also disrupt the economy somewhat for citizens inside the US. If you reject them even more firmly we still don't get much more taxes paid, they'll still be risking life and limb to get in, and you'll be fueling the drive for a market of folks who help hide illegals in this country. Maybe there will be less coming over but given they're already risking life/limb/family-separation it's pretty safe to assume that risk isn't a huge factor in their decision making. We get some sort of negative either way - just depends on which negative you want to take I suppose.
I'd say more relaxed immigration policies would go a long way, especially since many of these issues are precisely due to people feeling the need to immigrate illegally and start a life in the US instead of immigrating legally. I personally don't know enough details of current federal immigration policy to properly critique it, but I'd suspect either a mixture of costs involved, desperation, and/or time involved is likely a core motivator for people to come in outside of legal channels. Additionally, I do remember reading a lot about many immigrants from Central America and so on coming here for reasons such as escaping faltering economies and gang violence, etc. Perhaps helping those countries solve those problems would help abate the tide of people fleeing here in fear of staying in their country of origin...
[QUOTE=ScriptKitt3h;52278191] Additionally, I do remember reading a lot about many immigrants from Central America and so on coming here for reasons such as escaping faltering economies and gang violence, etc. Perhaps helping those countries solve those problems would help abate the tide of people fleeing here in fear of staying in their country of origin...[/QUOTE] Honestly speaking, we should ask their failing economy to pay for The Wall. It'll take a few hundred years but the plan is foolproof. /s
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52277814]No, we won't.[/QUOTE] I guess you have a much more optimistic look on our horrendous situation.
[QUOTE=New Cidem;52278264]I guess you have a much more optimistic look on our horrendous situation.[/QUOTE] I seriously doubt that'll happen.
[QUOTE=Kagu;52278121]Oh sweet more minimum wage jobs for American citizens to take up. /s Fuck outta here, don't act like this method is saving American jobs that Americans are too prideful to work anyway. Stop acting pretentious and act like this is the best solution.[/QUOTE] What an awful way to go around discussing this. Get off your high horse. [QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;52278123]I'm not sure there is one good way to go about it. If you accept them more readily we get more taxes paid and less deportation (and less money spent on deportation enforcement etc) but you also disrupt the economy somewhat for citizens inside the US. If you reject them even more firmly we still don't get much more taxes paid, they'll still be risking life and limb to get in, and you'll be fueling the drive for a market of folks who help hide illegals in this country. Maybe there will be less coming over but given they're already risking life/limb/family-separation it's pretty safe to assume that risk isn't a huge factor in their decision making. We get some sort of negative either way - just depends on which negative you want to take I suppose.[/QUOTE] Well hopefully some sort of solution comes up that ends up being the best possibility.
[QUOTE=Nookyava;52278423]What an awful way to go around discussing this. Get off your high horse.[/QUOTE] The fact that you use regard my opinion as 'awful' while using the phrase "Get off your high horse", as if that demerits the message I'm trying to convey is absolutely astounding, especially after throwing in the solution to the problem with a vague response like this: [QUOTE=Nookyava;52278423]Well hopefully some sort of solution comes up that ends up being the best possibility.[/QUOTE] Get over yourself. This is not a solution no matter how you want to spin it. You and I both know people that would rather be jobless than suck it up and take a minimum wage line of work, so stop being disingenuous.
[QUOTE=Kagu;52278633]The fact that you use regard my opinion as 'awful' while using the phrase "Get off your high horse", as if that demerits the message I'm trying to convey is absolutely astounding, especially after throwing in the solution to the problem with a vague response like this: Get over yourself. This is not a solution no matter how you want to spin it. You and I both know people that would rather be jobless than suck it up and take a minimum wage line of work, so stop being disingenuous.[/QUOTE] I didn't state your opinion is awful, I stated the way you went with your attitude was awful. If you've read the thread at all you'd see we were having discussions, and I was seeing the other point of view. Then you came in without reading and immediately acted like an ass. Also surprise surprise, if you have to take a job you don't like in order to make money and survive then you do it. Hell I fucking did it for the longest time. Either you sit and do nothing, or you actually try to make something of yourself. So no, you and I both don't know clearly.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;52277937]Then those jobs either need to improve their compensation until people will do them, or those jobs need to go. But then again, why would people raise compensation for these jobs when they have a supply of people who are willing to be exploited?[/QUOTE] Not really going to happen unless you somehow eliminate the very bottom of the population. It'd be nice if the illegals disappeared and stopped coming and we could force employers to change their profit margins to accommodate workers who have actual protections, but it's not going to happen. I also wouldn't say they're as much 'willing to be exploited' as much forced to be, they don't exactly have a ton of job options, even less than your average bottom of the poverty line American. [QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;52277937]Getting millions of dollars is long, painful, and unobtainable by many. Should we change our laws on robbing banks? Immigration difficulty is not an excuse for illegally immigrating.[/QUOTE] Uh, don't really see why you're throwing in useless analogies. We can do that all day, and it's never going to actually be a substantial argument. "The way Nazis solved their problems with a glut of non-citizens is genocide, would you like a genocide?" It's all just exaggeration based on different topics. It's like those "YOU WOULDN'T STEAL A CAR" commercials. Just vastly different things you're throwing together for an argument. And I never said it's an excuse either. I said they're coming over because their country is collapsing and they can get a better quality of life (as well as actually survive) by escaping over the border and taking their chances scraping out a life in America, and if not for them, then their children can be born here and have a better life than they had to scratch out working menial jobs nobody wants. I don't pretend like it's right or like everyone should be happy with it, but it's simply not going away. It's the same issue as migrants fleeing the Middle East, they're going to keep coming as long as the place they want to go is better than the hellhole their fleeing. So you either have to treat them like absolute garbage beyond what any western nation is willing to do, or you have to find a way to deal with them until their nation, one way or another, is fixed. We can spend all day arguing how we feel about the upholding and breaking of certain laws but it's really not the argument and we'd just spend three pages running in circles if we did. [QUOTE=Nookyava;52277976]I can believe that, however what would be your alternative?[/QUOTE] It's something I've thought a lot about and honestly couldn't tell you, it's a mess of an issue involving a dozen different questions about ethics and law that every person will feel differently on. Personally, I'd create a New Deal system to organize refugees (because honestly that's what they are, just instead of crossing from Syria to Italy over the sea they're running from Chihuahua to Texas over the border), lax Visa requirements to make it so getting into the nation legally is a viable alternative to illegally immigrating, or make an entirely new system just for Mexican refugees. Then keep them in, like I said, a New Deal socialized work system where they can operate as workers for the government on our infrastructure and in factories for a small pay while also living in barracks style housing, doesn't have to be nice just humane, and let them work their way to citizenship after a certain time. That's more the Socialist in me speaking however, I'd suggest a similar program for citizens. I also think we should be doing more in Mexico. The chaos there isn't a problem that'll go away by hiding, and we need to stop treating Mexico like a distant dumpster fire like we do for African and Middle Eastern nations that are facing internal conflict and treat it like it is, a neighboring ally that has almost completely lost control and is now being subverted by radical elements. It's honestly miraculous that the situation in Mexico has only really spilled over by large amounts of refugees and occasional gang violence / trafficking in southern states. Since I'm a bit of a hawk, and in the military, I'd suggest military intervention in Mexico on behalf of their government (I'd especially suggest we have done that in 2001 instead of Iraq) but like I said, that's just because I'm a hawk, there's a thousand arguments on why that's a shitty idea. Regardless of how it's done however, the situation isn't going to be stopping (short of absolutely dystopian measures) unless Mexico stabilizes. Ultimately, mind you, I'm a hawkish Socialist who primarily values the well being of others over economic and other issues inside of our own country, I'm highly in support of foreign intervention as well as foreign aid and nation building. Many Americans won't agree with me, and all probably have their own ideas on what should be done, and honestly those ideas probably have just as much merit, if not more, than my own. It's not an easy situation and it's one we'll probably be dealing with for decades still.
[QUOTE=Nookyava;52278691] Also surprise surprise, if you have to take a job you don't like in order to make money and survive then you do it. Hell I fucking did it for the longest time. Either you sit and do nothing, or you actually try to make something of yourself. So no, you and I both don't know clearly.[/QUOTE] Did you even read my post, I said you and I (and everyone in this thread potententially) [B]know someone or of someone[/B] that would rather have no job than to suffer working in a dead-end job. And then I applied that to a discussion on how removing immigrant workers from these types of jobs and using that as a narrative to say that Trump/ICE is saving American jobs is completely disingenuous. My post had nothing to do with your motivation to work a job, nor did it ever say you were too prideful to take a low end job either.
[QUOTE=Kagu;52278750]Did you even read my post, I said you and I (and everyone in this thread potententially) [B]know someone or of someone[/B] that would rather have no job than to suffer working in a dead-end job. And then I applied that to a discussion on how removing immigrant workers from these types of jobs and using that as a narrative to say that Trump/ICE is saving American jobs is completely disingenuous. My post had nothing to do with your motivation to work a job, nor did it ever say you were too prideful to take a low end job either.[/QUOTE] Nook's been pretty calm and polite with his arguments and you came in seemingly angry that anyone disagrees with you. Honestly you should probably step back from the monitor and take a bit of a breather dude. Like, I agree with you and I still don't think you're contributing anything here.
[QUOTE=Kagu;52278750]Did you even read my post, I said you and I (and everyone in this thread potententially) [B]know someone or of someone[/B] that would rather have no job than to suffer working in a dead-end job. And then I applied that to a discussion on how removing immigrant workers from these types of jobs and using that as a narrative to say that Trump/ICE is saving American jobs is completely disingenuous. My post had nothing to do with your motivation to work a job, nor did it ever say you were too prideful to take a low end job either.[/QUOTE] Looking back the wording threw me off a bit so I clearly misunderstood whom you were referring to with that statement. I can see your point as I can see how someone absolutely cannot work a minimum wage job even if it meant a lower quality of life, however I still stand by how you came into the thread was uncalled for.
[QUOTE=JeSuisIkea;52278789]Nook's been pretty calm and polite with his arguments and you came in seemingly angry that anyone disagrees with you. Honestly you should probably step back from the monitor and take a bit of a breather dude. Like, I agree with you and I still don't think you're contributing anything here.[/QUOTE] My posts weren't aimed at anyone but rather the people who would support such actions by ICE. Had I called someone out, it would have been quoted but my fault for not making that clear. How am I not contributing? The rhetoric that is proposed by the opposite side would be that the actions of ICE/Trump saves American jobs is still withstanding and there is no doubt that a staunch supporter would use this incident as evidence to that. My posts were meant to point out the shortsightedness of that line of reasoning; I don't think I personally attacked or disagreed with anyone in this thread.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52277349]Oh stop, please. I understand it may seem like a worthwhile comparison but please give me a shout when they load people on trains en-route to concentration camps, or when they just drag them out of their store and cap them in the back of the head. ICE is largely shitty. Their policies are arbitrary, their methods are cruel, and their oversight is apathetic at best. But they are not SS.[/QUOTE] Obviously they aren't the SS, but it's kinda worrying when they're pulling things that would be in the Gestapo's handbook.
The only reason people come to USA illegally is either find work or escape a shitty situation occurring from nation of origin. Migrants won't come here any more or will leave voluntary once automation is fully implemented. With the shiity situation? That not going get fixed any time soon. Withe mexico's civil war with cartels, that might need US military intervention.
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