• George Zimmerman found NOT GUILTY
    1,148 replies, posted
I think everyone understands Zimmerman didn't make the best choices but none of them justified or even nudged Martin toward assaulting him. Facts of life: if you're out late at night in the rain walking through yards in a gated community, people might find that suspicious. It's not personal and it doesn't give you the right to pick a fight. Essentially two wannabe tough guys ran into each other and one was more aggressive than the other.
[QUOTE=BusterBluth;41467265]It was never even established that Zimmerman continued to follow him though.[/QUOTE] We do know that he was following him throughout most of the 911 call though, as evidenced by Zimmerman's car door chiming off during the recording when he kept police updated on Trayvon's whereabouts.
[QUOTE=BusterBluth;41467265]It was never even established that Zimmerman continued to follow him though.[/QUOTE] I think this is the biggest problem. We don't know what happened that night. Too many times we see people operate on the assumption that Zimmerman did this, or Martin did that, and the only person who really knows what happened is Zimmerman. What we do know - both parties made phone calls, Zimmerman to 911 and Martin to his girlfriend. We do know that Zimmerman received injuries, with all evidence pointing to assault from Martin. And we obviously know that Zimmerman shot Martin. Everything else is more often that not an assumption based on the word of Zimmerman, and assumptions are not factual. The "what-if" game is a lovely one to play, and I think we all agree that the situation easily could have and should have been avoided, but that's a different conversation altogether.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41467315]We do know that he was following him throughout most of the 911 call though, as evidenced by Zimmerman's car door chiming off during the recording when he kept police updated on Trayvon's whereabouts.[/QUOTE] Yes, but after that nothing was ever established.
[QUOTE=NoShogun;41467289]I think everyone understands Zimmerman didn't make the best choices but none of them justified or even nudged Martin toward assaulting him.[/QUOTE] I agree, but some people are willing to say that Zimmerman has no blame in the issue. That's ridiculous. At the very least, Zimmerman is not a good Neighborhood Watch Captain. Even if he should never have been tried, he should probably be removed from his community position.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41467247]Every Neighborhood Watch Manuel out there tells you NOT to single-handedly confront a loiterer by yourself. You are suppose to use your watch network in order to track their movements while police are on their way. This is because, in the case of an actual burglar, he or she may be armed. Even if Zimmerman had a concealed carry, he would have been defenseless if Trayvon was an armed burglar willing to stick up Zimmerman. Following Trayvon was incredibly foolish on Zimmerman's part for a variety of reasons. If Trayvon was a professional criminal, he could have done any number of things, including: *Suddenly sticking up Zimmerman and robbing him on the spot, taking away his gun in the process. *Suddenly sticking up Zimmerman, and shooting him before he got a chance to reach for his own gun. *Leading him into a concealed area, and have several other men jump Zimmerman. (Burglars often work as a team, not just alone) *Making a sharp turn away from Zimmerman and then immediately confronting/hitting him on the other side. *Running away; preventing the police from detaining an actual burglar suspect in the process. Even if you think Zimmerman is not responsible for a single thing that happened that night, he acted incredibly foolish by following Trayvon. A Neighborhood Watch Captain is suppose to act as a surveillance leader; not an actual police officer doing the footwork. For your own safety, you should never follow a suspicious figure when you yourself are alone. Likewise, legality isn't the end of responsibility. I think most people agree that OJ Simpson is responsible for murder, even if the court found him not guilty. Same with Casey Anthony. Plus I think the court room pretty much verified that Trayvon Martin was simply walking around the neighborhood. He was not looking for a confrontation, even if a confrontation happened. If Zimmerman never approached Trayvon, and listened to the police dispatcher's request, Trayvon would still be alive. Take the gunman out, and no one is injured/dead. It's that simple.[/QUOTE] Take a breath from your long ass posts. I'm yet to see anyone deny the fact that Zimmerman acted very stupid and careless in this particular case. But that doesn't make it okay to beat him up, nor does it change the fact that he was [b]entirely in his right[/b] to stop the assault any way he could. Obviously he couldn't defend himself with bare hands, so he had to use his handgun. His life was in danger, and even if Trayvon hadn't had the intention to actually kill him there, Zimmerman had no ways of knowing it.
It's amazing how misinformed everyone is. Zimmerman did not confront Martin. Martin confronted Zimmerman.
[QUOTE=BusterBluth;41467328]Yes, but after that nothing was ever established.[/QUOTE] Again, if Trayvon was a real criminal, Zimmerman could have been in serious danger any time during that period. He could have even been carjacked during the 911 call, if Trayvon had a gun. [editline]15th July 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=gudman;41467352]I'm yet to see anyone deny the fact that Zimmerman acted very stupid and careless in this particular case. But that doesn't make it okay to beat him up, nor does it change the fact that he was [b]entirely in his right[/b] to stop the assault any way he could. Obviously he couldn't defend himself with bare hands, so he had to use his handgun. His life was in danger, and even if Trayvon hadn't had the intention to actually kill him there, Zimmerman had no ways of knowing it.[/QUOTE] I know, I agree. What I disagree with is this idea that Zimmerman should have a clear conscience. Which a few posters have suggested.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41467372]Again, if Trayvon was a real criminal, Zimmerman could have been in serious danger any time during that period. He could have even been carjacked during the 911 call, if Trayvon had a gun.[/QUOTE] Perhaps Zimmerman should have drove away immediately, if it was a real criminal he could have been shot at in his car. Why does that matter?
[QUOTE=Reimu;41467372]I know, I agree. What I disagree with is this idea that Zimmerman should have a clear conscience. Which a few posters have suggested.[/QUOTE] So... because he took a serious personal risk in following Martin, not knowing what he was capable of, he shouldn't have a clear conscience? Why not?
[QUOTE=BusterBluth;41467387]Perhaps Zimmerman should have drove away immediately, if it was a real criminal he could have been shot at in his car. Why does that matter?[/QUOTE] It shows that he was acting irresponsibly without understanding the consequences of his actions, and in the process, putting his own life in danger. Does it justify Trayvon hitting Zimmerman or anything that followed? No. But it does show that Zimmerman acted foolishly in the first place by believing that following a potential criminal was a good idea.
On February 2, 2012 Zimmerman saw a suspicious black male scouting houses. Zimmerman did not follow him, so he lost him, but did call the police about the person. Four days later, there was a break-in. As for leaving the car, do you know why he did so? To check which street he was on. Burglars and vandals made it a habit to change the street signs to confuse police responders, so Zimmerman wanted to confirm which street he was on by his location. While he was doing so, Martin confronted and assaulted Zimmerman leading to the assault and resulting shooting. The only person who committed crimes that night were Martin. Starting with assault on his first punch, then felony battery when he was straddling Zimmerman and beating his face into the pavement, and finally attempted murder when he threatened to kill him after seeing his gun.
[QUOTE=catbarf;41467401]So... because he took a serious personal risk in following Martin, not knowing what he was capable of, he shouldn't have a clear conscience? Why not?[/QUOTE] He exasperated a situation that he was - obviously - way over his head to handle. He wasn't thinking about the possible outcomes of the scenario at hand, and never realized that - at any moment - he might be putting himself or others in danger. He didn't need to follow Trayvon. He had 911 on and reported a suspicious person. He could have taken other precautions instead of following a total stranger. He could have driven home the moment his 911 call ended, and he could have kept his cool instead of arguing with Martin (we know for a fact from eyewitnesses that there was an argument before any physical confrontation). He made multiple mistakes that night that no reasonable, clear-thinking person should have. His inability to stay out of the situation and let police handle the matter is key to the argument, physical confrontation, pummeling, and shot that night.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41467457]He exasperated a situation that he was - obviously - way over his head to handle. He wasn't thinking about the possible outcomes of the scenario at hand, and never realized that - at any moment - he might be putting himself or others in danger. He didn't need to follow Trayvon. He had 911 on and reported a suspicious person. He could have taken other precautions instead of following a total stranger. He could have driven home the moment his 911 call ended, and he could have kept his cool instead of arguing with Martin (we know for a fact from eyewitnesses that there was an argument before any physical confrontation). He made multiple mistakes that night that no reasonable, clear-thinking person should have. His inability to stay out of the situation and let police handle the matter is key to the argument, physical confrontation, pummeling, and shot that night.[/QUOTE] So Martin did nothing wrong?
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;41467455]On February 2, 2012 Zimmerman saw a suspicious black male scouting houses. Zimmerman did not follow him, so he lost him, but did call the police about the person. Four days later, there was a break-in. As for leaving the car, do you know why he did so? To check which street he was on. Burglars and vandals made it a habit to change the street signs to confuse police responders, so Zimmerman wanted to confirm which street he was on by his location. While he was doing so, Martin confronted and assaulted Zimmerman leading to the assault and resulting shooting. The only person who committed crimes that night were Martin. Starting with assault on his first punch, then felony battery when he was straddling Zimmerman and beating his face into the pavement, and finally attempted murder when he threatened to kill him after seeing his gun.[/QUOTE] [quote]Three weeks prior to the shooting, on February 2, 2012, Zimmerman called police to report a young man peering into the windows of an empty Twin Lakes home. Zimmerman was told a police car was on the way and he waited for their arrival. By the time police arrived, the suspect had fled. On February 6, workers witnessed two young black men lingering in the yard of a Twin Lakes resident around the same time her home was burglarized. A new laptop and some gold jewelry were stolen. The next day police discovered the stolen laptop in the backpack of a young black man, which led to his arrest. Zimmerman identified this young man as the same person he had spotted peering into windows on February 2.[2][/quote] Zimmerman didn't follow the suspicious black male on February 2nd, but he was able to help police in identifying and arresting the man. He didn't have to follow them. Just inform police. Or, in other terms, what Neighborhood Watch Captain should be doing. Likewise, a good Neighborhood Watch relies on a phone system. This is why every household is suppose to have one adult as a Watch member. Instead of following someone, you're suppose to run a phone ring which tracks a suspicious individual as they go door-to-door. You do not want to follow a suspicious individual, because there is a chance that you will scare them away or put yourself in jeopardy.
[QUOTE=thisispain;41448888]on the other hand this basically sets a precedent that you can kill a kid, and still never be convicted with even anything[/QUOTE] I don't see the "self defense" part anywhere in your post.
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;41467482]So Martin did nothing wrong?[/QUOTE] Martin pummeled and punched him. Of course Martin did something wrong. Zimmerman could have made better decisions and critically thought about the situation at hand, though. There are better ways a Neighborhood Watch Captain can conduct themselves. Zimmerman is a shitty Captain.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41467457]He exasperated a situation that he was - obviously - way over his head to handle. He wasn't thinking about the possible outcomes of the scenario at hand, and never realized that - at any moment - he might be putting himself or others in danger. He didn't need to follow Trayvon. He had 911 on and reported a suspicious person. He could have taken other precautions instead of following a total stranger. He could have driven home the moment his 911 call ended, and he could have kept his cool instead of arguing with Martin (we know for a fact from eyewitnesses that there was an argument before any physical confrontation). He made multiple mistakes that night that no reasonable, clear-thinking person should have. His inability to stay out of the situation and let police handle the matter is key to the argument, physical confrontation, pummeling, and shot that night.[/QUOTE] If Zimmerman kept his distance from Trayvon then there was nothing overtly dangerous about what he was doing. Reporting it too the police and attempting to keep the guy in your sight is not an unreasonable thing to do.
[QUOTE=BusterBluth;41467495]If Zimmerman kept his distance from Trayvon then there was nothing overtly dangerous about what he was doing. Reporting it too the police and attempting to keep the guy in your sight is not an unreasonable thing to do.[/QUOTE] It was unnecessary and never should have happened in the first place. He was able to help police in the past through suspicious behavior reports from his home, and Neighborhood Watch programs are suppose to run a phone ring instead of following people. You keep someone in your sights by watching them from your home and relying on your fellow Watch members. Not following them across the neighborhood. That's reckless and stupid.
What about manslaughter? Any information about this?
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Trayvon_Martin_Shooting_Call1.ogg[/url] Here is the 911 call if you guys want it.
[QUOTE=NoShogun;41466886]t's fun when people make posts like this where they assume the worst about Zimmerman's character but little Trayvon Angel could not have possibly been up to anything suspicious. It's also 100% impossible that Zimmerman, as neighborhood watch, felt suspicious of Martin b/c he was some guy walking around late at night in the rain looking at houses. Honestly, nobody but those two will know what they were actually thinking, so it's really irrelevant to speculate. What we do know is that every bit of evidence points to Martin beating the absolute shit out of Zimmerman, and Zman firing in order to save his life while being within his legal rights to do so. [editline]15th July 2013[/editline] the post I just quoted is a perfect example of people not understanding that being followed doesn't give you the right to beat the shit out of someone.[/QUOTE] It takes a hell of a lot of training to keep people from thinking what I described when their blood is up. The facts remain - he took thing into his own hands and followed someone when he ought to have relayed on to other watch members to keep an eye out and stayed goddam put. His job is to raise the alarm, not play fucking hero. Leave that to the cops.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41467524]It was unnecessary and never should have happened in the first place. He was able to help police in the past through suspicious behavior reports from his home, and Neighborhood Watch programs are suppose to run a phone ring instead of following people. You keep someone in your sights by watching them from your home and relying on your fellow Watch members. Not following them across the neighborhood. That's reckless and stupid.[/QUOTE] He was traveling in his car when he saw Martin. He stopped when he saw Martin and called the police. Its hardly as though he was rolling between bushes and jumping between shadows.
[QUOTE=BusterBluth;41467641]He was traveling in his car when he saw Martin. He stopped when he saw Martin and called the police. Its hardly as though he was rolling between bushes and jumping between shadows.[/QUOTE] This should [b]never[/b] happen in a proper Watch system. You do [b]not[/b] follow a suspicious person unless you are a trained police officer who understands what to do in the event of a possible confrontation. Zimmerman should have known from February 2nd onwards that the Watch system was broken in his community. He said so himself - "These assholes always get away." That's a clear problem and showcases the fact that his Watch system was not working. As Captain, he needed to fix it. Likewise, it's telling that the first thing on his mind was to follow Trayvon, instead of contact his fellow Watch members and warn them about a suspicious person. I suspect the Watch system was not setup properly in order to do this, which is a critical failing for Zimmerman as a Captain and a leader. He should have never been in a situation where he needed to get into his car in the first place. If that is the only available option within your Watch community, you are doing something horribly wrong.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41467702]This should [b]never[/b] happen in a proper Watch system. You do [b]not[/b] follow a suspicious person unless you are a trained police officer who understands what to do in the event of a possible confrontation. Zimmerman should have known from February 2nd onwards that the Watch system was broken in his community. He said so himself - "These assholes always get away." That's a clear problem and showcases the fact that his Watch system was not working. As Captain, he needed to fix it. Likewise, it's telling that the first thing on his mind was to follow Trayvon, instead of contact his fellow Watch members and warn them about a suspicious person. I suspect the Watch system was not setup properly in order to do this, which is a critical failing for Zimmerman as a Captain and a leader. He should have never been in a situation where he needed to get into his car in the first place. If that is the only available option within your Watch community, you are doing something horribly wrong.[/QUOTE] And his ineptitude ended in a preventable death. It may have been self-defence, but getting into a situation where that was applicable was a major fuckup in of itself. That is a pretty damning indictment, no matter the law.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41467702]This should [b]never[/b] happen in a proper Watch system. You do [b]not[/b] follow a suspicious person unless you are a trained police officer who understands what to do in the event of a possible confrontation. Zimmerman should have known from February 2nd onwards that the Watch system was broken in his community. He said so himself - "These assholes always get away." That's a clear problem and showcases the fact that his Watch system was not working. As Captain, he needed to fix it. Likewise, it's telling that the first thing on his mind was to follow Trayvon, instead of contact his fellow Watch members and warn them about a suspicious person. I suspect the Watch system was not setup properly in order to do this, which is a critical failing for Zimmerman as a Captain and a leader. He should have never been in a situation where he needed to get into his car in the first place. If that is the only available option within your Watch community, you are doing something horribly wrong.[/QUOTE] Didn't the guy get away because Zimmerman waited for the police to arrive? Doesn't seem to be his fault but the police.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;41467726]And his ineptitude ended in a preventable death. It may have been self-defence, but getting into a situation where that was applicable was a major fuckup in of itself. That is a pretty damning indictment, no matter the law.[/QUOTE] This is the most shocking thing. If he had a proper Watch system in place, this never would have happened. If he had simply called the police and called the police alone - as every single Watch manual advises - this never would have happened. Cases like this one should have been his motivation to change the system in his community. Instead, he thought taking matters into his own hands would prevent crimes from happening. If he and Trayvon didn't have a confrontation, I wonder if Zimmerman would have been killed by an actual burglar.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;41467739]Didn't the guy get away because Zimmerman waited for the police to arrive? Doesn't seem to be his fault but the police.[/QUOTE] Then the fucking coppers need to work on their responses too. All authorities involved come out looking like fucking idiots, more and more.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;41467739]Didn't the guy get away because Zimmerman waited for the police to arrive? Doesn't seem to be his fault but the police.[/QUOTE] No. Thanks to his information they were eventually able to arrest the burglar a few days later. Likewise, the problem relies in the Watch system itself being broken. He wasn't using a phone system in order to catch criminals - he was simply calling them into police. A good Watch system uses a phone network in order to keep tabs on a criminal's whereabouts. The fundamental flaw is the infrastructural issue of the Watch itself. It diverts back to Zimmerman's ineptitude as a leader within his community.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;41467739]Didn't the guy get away because Zimmerman waited for the police to arrive? Doesn't seem to be his fault but the police.[/QUOTE] Yes, as explained [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Background_of_the_shooting"]here[/URL]. That is why he changed his usual procedure of just watching them, the criminals were getting away.
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