[QUOTE=Reimu;41467764]No. Thanks to his information they were eventually able to arrest the burglar a few days later.
Likewise, the problem relies in the Watch system itself being broken. He wasn't using a phone system in order to catch criminals - he was simply calling them into police. A good Watch system uses a phone network in order to keep tabs on a criminal's whereabouts.
The fundamental flaw is the infrastructural issue of the Watch itself. It diverts back to Zimmerman's ineptitude as a leader within his community.[/QUOTE]
TBH, I half-wonder if a criminal ineptitude charge would be able to get off the ground against him - and, no, it would not fall afoul of double jeopardy laws, as it's an entirely different (but related charge).
[QUOTE=Reimu;41467343]I agree, but some people are willing to say that Zimmerman has no blame in the issue.
That's ridiculous. At the very least, Zimmerman is not a good Neighborhood Watch Captain. Even if he should never have been tried, he should probably be removed from his community position.[/QUOTE]
I agree he's a terrible neighborhood watch captain but we can't really blame Zimmerman for Martin's actions. It's another one of those "if X hadn't have happened" kind of things.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;41467822]TBH, I half-wonder if a criminal ineptitude charge would be able to get off the ground against him - and, no, it would not fall afoul of double jeopardy laws, as it's an entirely different (but related charge).[/QUOTE]
I don't think the problem is that he didn't do anything wrong, it's just impossible to nail him with anything in court.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;41467822]TBH, I half-wonder if a criminal ineptitude charge would be able to get off the ground against him - and, no, it would not fall afoul of double jeopardy laws, as it's an entirely different (but related charge).[/QUOTE]
I think the DoJ's investigation for a civil rights violation might be interesting as well. It's a very risky maneuver - the Obama administration will take a serious nosedive among POC communities if the investigation comes up null.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41467372]
I know, I agree.
What I disagree with is this idea that Zimmerman should have a clear conscience. Which a few posters have suggested.[/QUOTE]
Trust me, he doesn't, most soldiers get their first kill at a hundred metres or so, not point black, and even then it almost always fucks them up for a while, even with their training. I can't even imagine how you feel after shooting someone while looking into their eyes less than a meter away, that shit would haunt anyone for the rest of their life.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;41467726]And his ineptitude ended in a preventable death. [/QUOTE]
No, Martin's wannabe thug attitude and subsequent assault of a law-abiding citizen ended in a preventable death.
By your reasoning if a guy goes down a street known to have crime problems, and he gets jumped and has to defend himself, it's his fault he got jumped for putting himself in the situation in the first place. In another context we'd call that victim blaming. It isn't Zimmerman's fault he got attacked when he was acting entirely within the law, regardless of whether or not he could have acted differently.
I might catch an eternity of shit for this, but
in threads where women get robbed/assaulted while they're drunk, if anyone says anything remotely similar to "she shouldn't be drunk/put herself in a situation where she could get assaulted, if she was responsible it never would have happened" it turns into an explosion of why people shouldn't blame the victim.
And yet those same people who get so mad whenever someone insinuates that the victim put themselves in a bad position are the ones now saying that Zimmerman is partially responsible for putting himself in the situation.
[editline]15th July 2013[/editline]
aka it's victim blaming which is apparently okay sometimes just not when you want it to be?
[QUOTE=Crimor;41467867]Trust me, he doesn't, most soldiers get their first kill at a hundred metres or so, not point black, and even then it almost always fucks them up for a while, even with their training. I can't even imagine how you feel after shooting someone while looking into their eyes less than a meter away, that shit would haunt anyone for the rest of their life.[/QUOTE]
I think Zimmerman has his own demons with the issue too. I definitely don't think he'll ever live it down, and I do feel bad for him. Personally, I just don't think that it excuses his ineptitude.
That said, he went on Hannity saying he doesn't regret what he did, and that it was God's plan. Granted, it takes a lot for someone to come to that conclusion, and it might just be a justification for what happened, but saying on live television "God planned for me to kill your son" is a little... harsh.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;41467822]TBH, I half-wonder if a criminal ineptitude charge would be able to get off the ground against him - and, no, it would not fall afoul of double jeopardy laws, as it's an entirely different (but related charge).[/QUOTE]
You have any info on criminal ineptitude charges? I can't find anything.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41467866]I think the DoJ's investigation for a civil rights violation might be interesting as well. It's a very risky maneuver - the Obama administration will take a serious nosedive among POC communities if the investigation comes up null.[/QUOTE]
The same DOJ that funded anti-Zimmerman protests? Isn't that a civil rights violation in itself?
[QUOTE=Crimor;41467867]Trust me, he doesn't, most soldiers get their first kill at a hundred metres or so, not point black, and even then it almost always fucks them up for a while, even with their training. I can't even imagine how you feel after shooting someone while looking into their eyes less than a meter away, that shit would haunt anyone for the rest of their life.[/QUOTE]
And he deserves that. Whatever the law says, his own ineptitude ended the life of 17-year old.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;41467950]And he deserves that. Whatever the law says, his own ineptitude ended the life of 17-year old.[/QUOTE]
Why don't we just take it a step further and blame the community for appointing an inept person as a watchman? After all if we're going to apply some weird transitive property of blame might as well go all the way.
[QUOTE=catbarf;41468008]Why don't we just take it a step further and blame the community for appointing an inept person as a watchman? After all if we're going to apply some weird transitive property of blame might as well go all the way.[/QUOTE]
That too.
[QUOTE=NoShogun;41467893]I might catch an eternity of shit for this, but
in threads where women get robbed/assaulted while they're drunk, if anyone says anything remotely similar to "she shouldn't be drunk/put herself in a situation where she could get assaulted, if she was responsible it never would have happened" it turns into an explosion of why people shouldn't blame the victim.
And yet those same people who get so mad whenever someone insinuates that the victim put themselves in a bad position are the ones now saying that Zimmerman is partially responsible for putting himself in the situation.
[editline]15th July 2013[/editline]
aka it's victim blaming which is apparently okay sometimes just not when you want it to be?[/QUOTE]
This is a pretty weak argument. There's a social force at work telling women that they shouldn't get drunk because rape will happen, as if the only way to prevent rape is not to be drunk. In reality, rape can only be prevented by ending rape culture and creating a society/culture which takes rape seriously and does not turn a blind eye towards rape claims.
The difference between these two scenarios is that victim blaming is often put into place as if the victim is solely responsible for the incident. And there is a social and cultural reinforcement for this idea too. "It's your fault that you were raped, you dressed like a skank," "You wore too much make-up," "You act so slutty, he figured it'd be okay," etc.
No one here is blaming Zimmerman for the murder. Trayvon had no right to pummel Zimmerman; that's obvious. What we are blaming him for is ineptitude as a Captain and as a human being.
Also, compared to Trayvon, Zimmerman is barely the victim here. Zimmerman took away a life here, even if it was in self-defense. That life would still be here if, months earlier, he originally created a proper system that didn't involve him following suspects.
[editline]15th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=benwaddi;41467920]The same DOJ that funded anti-Zimmerman protests? Isn't that a civil rights violation in itself?[/QUOTE]
You mean The Community Relations Service? It's pretty understandable that you would want to deploy the CRS in order to provide security, seeing how one of the major protestors was "The New Black Panthers," and White Supremacists have been following this case closely (IIRC White Supremacist groups helped fund the defense as well).
[QUOTE=catbarf;41467881]No, Martin's wannabe thug attitude and subsequent assault of a law-abiding citizen ended in a preventable death.
By your reasoning if a guy goes down a street known to have crime problems, and he gets jumped and has to defend himself, it's his fault he got jumped for putting himself in the situation in the first place. In another context we'd call that victim blaming. It isn't Zimmerman's fault he got attacked when he was acting entirely within the law, regardless of whether or not he could have acted differently.[/QUOTE]
It is one thing to be going about your business and be attacked by a criminal, it's another to seriously fuck up your task of raising alarms and avoiding trouble by getting out of the damn car and following a suspect on fucking foot. It says a lot about your priorities that you think those things are in any way comparable. And so what if he was a young dumbass juvenile delinquent who posted ~~edgy~~ shit on Twitter who was going to make himself some purple drank? That doesn't detract from the fact that he was avoidably killed.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41468029]No one here is blaming Zimmerman for the murder. Trayvon had no right to pummel Zimmerman; that's obvious. What we are blaming him for is ineptitude as a Captain and as a human being.
Also, compared to Trayvon, Zimmerman is barely the victim here. Zimmerman took away a life here, even if it was in self-defense. That life would still be here if, months earlier, he originally created a proper system that didn't involve him following suspects.[/QUOTE]
Ooooooh I like this game. If Trayvon was not caught with stolen good he would not have had his arrest changed into a school suspension and had to spend the week at his dads girlfriends.
Trayvons failure as a human being (displayed by his excellent grammar and how he got catfished by Jeantel) is why he thought the best response to being followed was to punch the guy. Let that settle in for a minute.
Guess Reginald was at fault for slowing down and not running over those rioters.
Jeep-eep rating and lack of explanation incoming in 3.....2.....1....
[QUOTE=Reimu;41468029]You mean The Community Relations Service? It's pretty understandable that you would want to deploy the CRS in order to provide security, seeing how one of the major protestors was "The New Black Panthers," and White Supremacists have been following this case closely (IIRC White Supremacist groups helped fund the defense as well).[/QUOTE]
Ah just read now they deployed without knowing the case was Zimmerman, some faith restored.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41468029]That life would still be here if, months earlier, he originally created a proper system that didn't involve him following suspects.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I get that there's a difference between rape culture and the Martin case, but the victim is at least partially being blamed here, still.
Yes, Trayvon would still be alive if Zimmerman hadn't have been on the scene but that argument doesn't hold water because Zimmerman following him didn't cause the incident, Martin's belligerence did.
And unfortunately, there are people blaming Zimmerman for the murder. Exhibit A: [QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;41467950] Whatever the law says, his own ineptitude ended the life of 17-year old.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;41468016]That too.[/QUOTE]
Why stop there? Let's blame the gun store owner for selling an obviously incompetent wannabe a weapon. Let's blame his MMA instructor for teaching him and giving him the mistaken impression that he could handle himself in a fight. Let's blame the dispatcher who told him the ambiguous 'we don't need you to do that' instead of 'don't do that'.
You're the one blaming people for creating the situation rather than for their direct, intentional actions. Where do you draw the line?
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;41467950]And he deserves that. Whatever the law says, his own ineptitude ended the life of 17-year old.[/QUOTE]
Zimmerman's ineptitude created an opportunity for Martin to jump on him and beat the shit out of him, Martin was the one who chose to do it. Martin's actions ultimately led to Zimmerman firing in self-defense.
Martin could have:
1) Kept walking
2) turned around and confronted Zimmerman verbally
Once the beating started, Zimmerman also had 2 choices
1) Do anything he can do defend himself
2) die (possibly, nobody knows how far Martin would have gone)
[QUOTE=benwaddi;41468116]Ooooooh I like this game. If Trayvon was not caught with stolen good he would not have had his arrest changed into a school suspension and had to spend the week at his dads girlfriends.
Trayvons failure as a human being (displayed by his excellent grammar and how he got catfished by Jeantel) is why he thought the best response to being followed was to punch the guy. Let that settle in for a minute.
Guess Reginald was at fault for slowing down and not running over those rioters.
Jeep-eep rating and lack of explanation incoming in 3.....2.....1....[/QUOTE]
What?
Zimmerman's Neighborhood Watch was critically flawed by the time the February 2nd robbery happened. He was the only person watching and reporting criminals. It's pretty obvious Zimmerman never would have physically met Trayvon if there was a phone system in operation.
Trayvon's history with theft and violence is only important within the context of the argument and confrontation. He never would have been there if he wasn't suspended, but, then again, Zimmerman never would have had to follow him if he could have just called his fellow Watch members and kept track of his whereabouts. In fact, they would have figured out over time that he wasn't even trying to steal anything - he was just walking around.
The whole "x wouldn't have happened if y" doesn't work out if you realize that Zimmerman was a pretty shitty Captain. You can pinpoint many of the major catalysts back to his inability to properly run the Watch.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41468161]
The whole "x wouldn't have happened if y" doesn't work out if you realize that Zimmerman was a pretty shitty Captain. You can pinpoint many of the major catalysts back to his inability to properly run the Watch.[/QUOTE]
The major catalyst was Trayvon Martin deciding to beat the shit out of George Zimmerman.
[QUOTE=NoShogun;41468123]Yeah, I get that there's a difference between rape culture and the Martin case, but the victim is at least partially being blamed here, still.
Yes, Trayvon would still be alive if Zimmerman hadn't have been on the scene but that argument doesn't hold water because Zimmerman following him didn't cause the incident, Martin's belligerence did.
And unfortunately, there are people blaming Zimmerman for the murder. Exhibit A:[/QUOTE]
Well I disagree with what Jeep-Eep is arguing, and it's true that you can't look at this issue as "fat white dude murders black kid in cold blood." Which is one of the reasons why, in 48 hours, tumblr and other SJ sites have slowly moved towards the institutional focus instead of Zimmerman himself.
It's important to note that Zimmerman's ineptitude in multiple occasions made the situation much, much worse than it could have been. Whereas a rapist is going to rape someone no matter what; he's just going to strategically target someone based on their ability to resist. It's pretty clear Trayvon and Zimmerman never meant to harm each other at first. Only after the argument did Trayvon figure throwing a punch would be a good idea.
[editline]15th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=NoShogun;41468182]The major catalyst was Trayvon Martin deciding to beat the shit out of George Zimmerman.[/QUOTE]
Trayvon would not have beat up anybody if a proper Watch system was in place. We've been over this. There would have been no need for a physical altercation with anyone in the neighborhood if everyone kept tabs with each other on his whereabouts.
Zimmerman should've known, when all the burglaries were happening, how to properly run an effective Neighborhood Watch. Instead he figured drastic measures were important. This doesn't justify Trayvon's actions at all, but Zimmerman should have had the common sense to fix his pet project when it was sinking. It was his Neighborhood Watch program and it was crumbling. He's definitely in the wrong for following a suspicious person instead of fixing his protection system.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you then. I totally agree Zimmerman wasn't a good watch captain, I just don't think it's fair to say that Zimmerman was at fault for what happened or caused it.
[editline]15th July 2013[/editline]
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you then. I totally agree Zimmerman wasn't a good watch captain, I just don't think it's fair to say that the entire tragedy was Zimmerman's fault
[QUOTE=Reimu;41468161]What?
Zimmerman's Neighborhood Watch was critically flawed by the time the February 2nd robbery happened. He was the only person watching and reporting criminals. It's pretty obvious[B] Zimmerman never would have physically met Trayvon if there was a phone system in operation[/B].
Trayvon's history with theft and violence is only important within the context of the argument and confrontation. He never would have been there if he wasn't suspended, but, then again, Zimmerman never would have had to follow him if he could have just called his fellow Watch members and kept track of his whereabouts. In fact, they would have figured out over time that he wasn't even trying to steal anything - he was just walking around.
The whole "[B]x wouldn't have happened if y[/B]" doesn't work out if you realize that Zimmerman was a pretty shitty Captain. You can pinpoint many of the major catalysts back to his inability to properly run the Watch.[/QUOTE]
Sorry so how is nothing on Trayvon for not responding like a normal human being to Zimmerman's questions? See if Trayvon had stopped after punching Zimmerman, Trayvon would be up for an assault charge. How is that Zimmerman's fault?
[QUOTE=NoShogun;41468247]Maybe I'm misunderstanding you then. I totally agree Zimmerman wasn't a good watch captain, I just don't think it's fair to say that Zimmerman was at fault for what happened or caused it.[/QUOTE]
We have enough common ground here that we're not really disagreeing strongly, either.
I think it's more that I feel that his ineptitude contributed to the situation, whereas you place more blame on Trayvon's actions during the confrontation.
Either way, though, I'm not about to say that Trayvon's actions were justified. And I think it's a real shame that many individuals within the POC think hitting Zimmerman was. It's a problem on multiple levels.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41468198]Trayvon would not have beat up anybody if a proper Watch system was in place.[/QUOTE]
Trayvon would not have beaten up anybody if he didn't of his own free will decide to beat up a guy for following him. Why are you trying to reassign the blame to incidental factors?
[QUOTE=NoShogun;41468247]Maybe I'm misunderstanding you then. I totally agree Zimmerman wasn't a good watch captain, I just don't think it's fair to say that Zimmerman was at fault for what happened or caused it.
[editline]15th July 2013[/editline]
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you then. I totally agree Zimmerman wasn't a good watch captain, I just don't think it's fair to say that the entire tragedy was Zimmerman's fault[/QUOTE]
I don't think he's saying Zimmerman was at fault, rather that he put himself in a poor position and has historically not been very good at his role of neighborhood watch captain.
[QUOTE=benwaddi;41468267]Sorry so how is nothing on Trayvon for not responding like a normal human being to Zimmerman's questions? See if Trayvon had stopped after punching Zimmerman, Trayvon would be up for an assault charge. How is that Zimmerman's fault?[/QUOTE]
Eyewitnesses report there was an argument there, not "questions." There was obviously a heated verbal confrontation before there was a physical one.
I'm not blaming Zimmerman for the murder. Trayvon had no right to punch Zimmerman. But if there was some sort of Neighborhood Watch system that prevented Watch members from physically leaving their homes, everyone would be safer.
I mean, fuck, Trayvon could have been bait for a home invasion. The moment Zimmerman left, his wife might have been taken hostage by a group of armed robbers.
[editline]15th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Protocol7;41468275]I don't think he's saying Zimmerman was at fault, rather that he put himself in a poor position and has historically not been very good at his role of neighborhood watch captain.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much.
It should be an important lesson for leaders and Captains - an inept and ill-structured system, mixed with straining the rules, can put everyone in a dangerous situation.
[QUOTE=benwaddi;41468267]Sorry so how is nothing on Trayvon for not responding like a normal human being to Zimmerman's questions? See if Trayvon had stopped after punching Zimmerman, Trayvon would be up for an assault charge. How is that Zimmerman's fault?[/QUOTE]
Eh, for a terrified person, that's within normal range of reaction. Not a good one, but still normal.
[QUOTE=catbarf;41468274]Trayvon would not have beaten up anybody if he didn't of his own free will decide to beat up a guy for following him. Why are you trying to reassign the blame to incidental factors?[/QUOTE]
Jesus, read my posts.
I'm not saying that Trayvon should not be held responsible. He beat a guy and pummeled him on the sidewalk; if he was alive, he would've received aggravated assault or worse.
What I'm saying is, if Zimmerman was actually a proper Captain, he would have created a system which prevented Watch members from having to follow suspicious persons. The fact that Zimmerman felt he had to jump in his car and follow Trayvon should be red flags to any Neighborhood Watch member.
Zimmerman could have prevented a physical altercation from happening if he was running a good Watch with a telephone system. Instead, he put himself in a situation with a total stranger, that ended up becoming violent.
If I were in Zimmerman's shoes, I would feel like an asshole for not taking the proper precautions beforehand. Not that it would have been my fault for the entire incident, of course, but there were steps Zimmerman could have taken from preventing a physical confrontation from coming even remotely close to necessary.
[editline]15th July 2013[/editline]
If you look at this case and think Trayvon is the only person at fault, please never become a Neighborhood Watch Captain. Zimmerman did NOT run a good Watch at all. That's the bottom line of my argument.
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