[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;41468303]Eh, for a terrified person, that's within normal range of reaction. Not a good one, but still normal.[/QUOTE]
Wait so how that fear extend? Were the cops OK in beating Rodney King? Remember he threatened their lives by initiating a high speed chase.
[QUOTE=benwaddi;41468355]Wait so how that fear extend? Were the cops OK in beating Rodney King? Remember he threatened their lives by initiating a high speed chase.[/QUOTE]
No, because as cops, they are supposed to have enough training and self-discipline not to do shit like that.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;41468385]No, because as cops, they are supposed to have enough training and self-discipline not to do shit like that.[/QUOTE]
It's unfortunate that what ought to be and what is are two separate dimensions.
[QUOTE=benwaddi;41468355]Wait so how that fear extend? Were the cops OK in beating Rodney King? Remember he threatened their lives by initiating a high speed chase.[/QUOTE]
Malcolm Gladwell's "Blink" analyzed the Rodney King case very well.
The high speed chase increased the officers' heart beat beyond the normal level for a high stress situation. After your each a perfect level for an adrenaline high, you begin to lose your higher rationality - i.e., you become more animalistic and self-preserving during a stressful situation. Eventually, you reach a point where your adrenaline level is so high, your entire body is shaking and you can't even focus.
By the time King was pulled over, all four police officers were under such a high-stress adrenaline rush, their first reaction was to hit King.
That said, all four of them were at fault and not everyone under a high stress situation immediately thinks of pummeling the shit out of someone. King never should have been beaten. "High-stress" is not a justification for a pummeling. From the LAPD, or Trayvon.
[QUOTE=benwaddi;41468355]Wait so how that fear extend? Were the cops OK in beating Rodney King? Remember he threatened their lives by initiating a high speed chase.[/QUOTE]
Don't try to blow this out of proportion by mentioning something unrelated.
I like all these armchair psychologists that think you can made a calm and collected decision while in a cqc fight, hell, any fight. Anyone, even me would have done what zimmerman did if they were in his shoes with his physical condition and equipment.
Yes it's sad that someone lost their life, but such is the world, you should always use everything within your power to defend yourself, and just in case people go "hurrdurr he should have taken a non lethal shot", good luck landing an accurate shot on a mobile target within two metres of you, let alone on someone ontop of you beating the living shit out of you. And there is no thing as a non lethal shot, he would most likely have bled out before paramedics could arrive even if he somehow managed to not hit vital organs.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;41468303]Eh, for a terrified person, that's within normal range of reaction. Not a good one, but still normal.[/QUOTE]
Pounding on a guy who was shouting for help?
Obviously it depends on which account of the events you take, but if you accept the account given by zimmerman and the eyewitnesses, it was not a normal reaction of a terrified person
and if you come to accept that zimmerman was defending himself, then there is a hell of a lot of victim blaming going on in this thread
[QUOTE=Reimu;41468271]We have enough common ground here that we're not really disagreeing strongly, either.
I think it's more that I feel that his ineptitude contributed to the situation, whereas you place more blame on Trayvon's actions during the confrontation.
Either way, though, I'm not about to say that Trayvon's actions were justified. And I think it's a real shame that many individuals within the POC think hitting Zimmerman was. It's a problem on multiple levels.[/QUOTE]
Ah okay I understand what you're saying now. That just about sums it up. Not a large disagreement at all.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;41468470]Pounding on a guy who was shouting for help?
Obviously it depends on which account of the events you take, but if you accept the account given by zimmerman and the eyewitnesses, it was not a normal reaction of a terrified person
[B]and if you come to accept that zimmerman was defending himself, then there is a hell of a lot of victim blaming going on in this thread[/B][/QUOTE]
Well, I guess the whole court system must love victim blaming then.
[QUOTE=deadoon;41468567]Well, I guess the whole court system must love victim blaming then.[/QUOTE]
apparently not because he was found not guilty
nobody (well, some racist people probably will) is saying zimmerman is some sort of moral paragon, however people claiming that zimmerman is as much to blame for treyvon attacking him is victim blaming
in hindsight, zimmerman made huge mistakes
hindsight being the key term here.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;41468590]apparently not because he was found not guilty
nobody (well, some racist people probably will) is saying zimmerman is some sort of moral paragon, however people claiming that zimmerman is as much to blame for treyvon attacking him is victim blaming
in hindsight, zimmerman made huge mistakes
hindsight being the key term here.[/QUOTE]
I think you phrased the bolded part wrong then. You said that if you believe that Zimmerman was defending himself, it is victim blaming. The court decided that his actions were in line with self defense, hence he was not guilty.
For clarification; Trayvon is considered the victim of the situation, as he had been the most directly affected(dead). If a robber is killed in a robbery, they are considered the victim similarly, while if the person is merely robed, the person is now he victim of robbery. That is if you say there is only one victim.
[QUOTE=deadoon;41468667]I think you phrased the bolded part wrong then. You said that if you believe that Zimmerman was defending himself, it is victim blaming. The court decided that his actions were in line with self defense, hence he was not guilty.[/QUOTE]
Apologies for making that ambiguous
[quote=deadoon]For clarification; Trayvon is considered the victim of the situation, as he had been the most directly affected(dead). If a robber is killed in a robbery, they are considered the victim similarly, while if the person is merely robed, the person is now he victim of robbery.[/quote]
Hmm, I'd agree with you to a point.
Trayvon is certainly a victim in the sense that he was killed, and certainly the greater victim, but Zimmerman is also a victim (if you accept the viewpoint put across by the defendant) in the sense that Trayvon attacked him first.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41468333]
What I'm saying is, if Zimmerman was actually a proper Captain, he would have created a system which prevented Watch members from having to follow suspicious persons. The fact that Zimmerman felt he had to jump in his car and follow Trayvon should be red flags to any Neighborhood Watch member.[/QUOTE]
and what specific system for preventing Watch members from having to follow suspicious persons is that?
Also, I'm pretty sure Zimmerman was already in his car when he saw Trayvon. He didn't see him from his house and decide to go chase him down.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41468333]Zimmerman could have prevented a physical altercation from happening if he was running a good Watch with a telephone system. Instead, he put himself in a situation with a total stranger, that ended up becoming violent.
If I were in Zimmerman's shoes, I would feel like an asshole for not taking the proper precautions beforehand. Not that it would have been my fault for the entire incident, of course, but there were steps Zimmerman could have taken from preventing a physical confrontation from coming even remotely close to necessary.[/QUOTE]
His inactions as a neighborhood watch captain put him in a physical confrontation? Zimmerman was questioned several times and said that he was walking back to his car when Trayvon confronted him. Don't just take into account what kind of person Zimmerman was and ignore Trayvon.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41468333]If you look at this case and think Trayvon is the only person at fault, please never become a Neighborhood Watch Captain. Zimmerman did NOT run a good Watch at all. That's the bottom line of my argument.[/QUOTE]
Hey, um, how long have you been captain of your neighborhood watch? It's really easy to say how someone doesn't do something right, when they themselves have no experience in it. You just summed up internet tough guys right there.
[QUOTE=Get Swag Son;41468882]and what specific system for preventing Watch members from having to follow suspicious persons is that?[/quote]
You use a phone system, and call/text each person within the Watch as the suspicious person passes by.
It creates a network where the Watch can monitor what a person does and communicate this to the police. It's extremely efficient because it allows you to receive information from multiple witnesses about who the suspect is, where he was going in real-time, how he was dressed, etc.
Compare that with one phone call from a Captain on Feb 2nd, where you only have one witness.
[quote]Also, I'm pretty sure Zimmerman was already in his car when he saw Trayvon. He didn't see him from his house and decide to go chase him down.[/quote]
On closer examination this is true, but he did leave his car during the 911 call to continue to follow him on foot. If there was a phone system setup for the Watch, he could have just sent a blanket text out to every member to watch out for a suspicious person.
He would not have had to follow Trayvon, just rely on his fellow Watch members (aka, if done right, one adult in every household).
[quote]His inactions as a neighborhood watch captain put him in a physical confrontation? Zimmerman was questioned several times and said that he was walking back to his car when Trayvon confronted him. Don't just take into account what kind of person Zimmerman was and ignore Trayvon.[/quote]
Hi, read my posts. I'm not doing that. Trayvon is to blame for hitting Zimmerman and pummeling him into the ground.
What I'm saying is that Zimmerman never would have had to follow Trayvon in the first place if he just created a phone system. He could have sent out a mass text/call, kept in contact with fellow Watch members, and then updated police with any information.
It's faster, more efficient, and does not physically expose any residents to a suspicious person. This is highly important, especially because the area had problems with robberies in the past. The last thing [b]anyone[/b] should do is try to approach a criminal alone on foot. It's like walking down an alley at night without another person there - it's an incredibly dangerous situation to be in.
[quote]Hey, um, how long have you been captain of your neighborhood watch? It's really easy to say how someone doesn't do something right, when they themselves have no experience in it. You just summed up internet tough guys right there.[/QUOTE]
Because I have experiences with relatives who are part of Watches - ?
My town use to have a makeshift Watch system setup as well, when we had issues with a serial burglary. By keeping track of suspicious people, calling the police, and keeping in contact with one another about suspicious activities, we ended up arresting a violent burglar. But we couldn't do it alone with one person making the calls. It's an all-or-nothing situation.
If someone in our town had tried to follow him to his whereabouts, there was a high chance someone would have gotten hurt. He nearly t-boned someone, which was how the police finally arrested him.
I see a lot of people in this thread applauding the justice system, but Zimmerman's ride through the justice system isn't over yet.
Trayvon's family will very likely file a civil lawsuit against Zimmerman for wrongful death, and the US Justice Department is going to investigate the case to see if any civil rights laws were violated in the shooting.
Seriously guys, George Zimmerman is no where near out of the woods yet. He's only passed the first test.
[QUOTE=Squidman;41469076]I see a lot of people in this thread applauding the justice system, but Zimmerman's ride through the justice system isn't over yet.
Trayvon's family will very likely file a civil lawsuit against Zimmerman for wrongful death, and the US Justice Department is going to investigate the case to see if any civil rights laws were violated in the shooting.
Seriously guys, George Zimmerman is no where near out of the woods yet. He's only passed the first test.[/QUOTE]
According to judge Napolitano the Martins can only sue for the equivalent of the loss of Trayvons earning power.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41469062]You use a phone system, and call/text each person within the Watch as the suspicious person passes by.
It creates a network where the Watch can monitor what a person does and communicate this to the police. It's extremely efficient because it allows you to receive information from multiple witnesses about who the suspect is, where he was going in real-time, how he was dressed, etc.
Compare that with one phone call from a Captain on Feb 2nd, where you only have one witness.[/QUOTE]
Good system, if you have the amount of watch members for it, if they are in perfect position from their house to be able to watch the person pass by. If every watch volunteers are gonna RUN to their window to tell the police about a suspicious person.
Yeah, that doesn't really sound efficient unless you're in a hollywood movie. But, these are volunteers.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41469062]On closer examination this is true, but he did leave his car during the 911 call to continue to follow him on foot. If there was a phone system setup for the Watch, he could have just sent a blanket text out to every member to watch out for a suspicious person.
He would not have had to follow Trayvon, just rely on his fellow Watch members (aka, if done right, one adult in every household).[/QUOTE]
He told the dispatcher he was getting out to check the street name, as they were changed often there.
And, um I don't think cars can drive on lawns and walkways:
[img]http://static01.mediaite.com/med/wp-content/uploads/gallery/trayvon-martin-crime-scene-photos/slide_305143_2617618_free.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Reimu;41469062]Hi, read my posts. I'm not doing that. Trayvon is to blame for hitting Zimmerman and pummeling him into the ground.
What I'm saying is that Zimmerman never would have had to follow Trayvon in the first place if he just created a phone system. He could have sent out a mass text/call, kept in contact with fellow Watch members, and then updated police with any information.[/QUOTE]
You really have to know the neighborhood more specifically if you're gonna come to the conclusion that you would've done a better job.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41469062]It's faster, more efficient, and does not physically expose any residents to a suspicious person. This is highly important, especially because the area had problems with robberies in the past. The last thing [b]anyone[/b] should do is try to approach a criminal alone on foot. It's like walking down an alley at night without another person there - it's an incredibly dangerous situation to be in.[/QUOTE]
Again, when did Zimmerman approach Trayvon.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41469062]Because I have experiences with relatives who are part of Watches - ?[/QUOTE]
I have experiences in the elite navy seals with relatives who are part of navy seals
You don't see white caucasians going in an uproar if a African American murders a white caucasian.
I think the media and the NAACP just have their panties in a bunch.
Excuse me if that sounds racist but in a way it is true.
[QUOTE=iI Stalker Ii;41469447]You don't see white caucasians going in an uproar if a African American murders a white caucasian.
I think the media and the NAACP just have their panties in a bunch.
Excuse me if that sounds racist but in a way it is true.[/QUOTE]
And that's because, no matter how innocent or otherwise he was, chances are he'd be off to pound-me-in-the-arse federal penitentiary.
[QUOTE=Get Swag Son;41469305]Good system, if you have the amount of watch members for it, if they are in perfect position from their house to be able to watch the person pass by. If every watch volunteers are gonna RUN to their window to tell the police about a suspicious person.
Yeah, that doesn't really sound efficient unless you're in a hollywood movie. But, these are volunteers.[/quote]
If you're facing burglaries within your neighborhood, you're very likely to get volunteers - according to Neighborhood Watch manuals, one per household minimum. This was a HUGE problem in the community too - there was a long history of break-ins at the time, and Zimmerman himself stated that it was becoming frustrating ("These assholes keep getting away.").
It's very simple to do this sort of watch anyway. You send a blanket text/activate a phone network if you notice something suspicious, you ask people to keep an eye open during the night if someone suspicious is walking by, and you also give them a bit of information if a suspicious person is specifically coming near their house. A good Captain and network can properly organize this information, and it creates a strong system where multiple people can keep an eye on the street at a time. So if one person misses, another volunteer will have their eye open and look out.
This is why most Neighborhood Watches use the phone system. It's efficient, it allows for mistakes, it doesn't bring people out of their house, and none of them have their Captains follow suspicious people in cars. Unless you can show me otherwise that Zimmerman's actions are common - ?
[quote]He told the dispatcher he was getting out to check the street name, as they were changed often there.
And, um I don't think cars can drive on lawns and walkways:
[img]http://static01.mediaite.com/med/wp-content/uploads/gallery/trayvon-martin-crime-scene-photos/slide_305143_2617618_free.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
There are windows there. With a phone system in place, Zimmerman could very easily have messaged everyone on those two streets to watch their backyards for a suspicious person. In fact, that's extremely important if there's suspected burglaries going on.
Not to mention, this is a gated community. The housing structure for each area is setup identical with a lot of wide open spaces and no obstructed windows. That means it's very easy for each household to keep an eye out for suspicious people from their front, back, and side windows.
[quote]You really have to know the neighborhood more specifically if you're gonna come to the conclusion that you would've done a better job.[/quote]
You're acting like I'm an actual Captain.
I don't have to be Captain of the year to point out a shitty system. Following suspicious people from your car is not a smart move. Zimmerman easily could have been followed, lured, and had his home invaded while Trayvon was acting as bait.
Zimmerman needed to create a better Watch system as Captain. Virtually everyone here can agree that a phone system would work better than having your Watch members follow someone.
[quote]Again, when did Zimmerman approach Trayvon.[/quote]
He got out of his car and was following him on foot. That's already very dangerous at a dark gated community on a winter night. Without a proper Watch system in place, Trayvon could have easily preyed or lured Zimmerman into a very bad situation (as in the ones I posted above - sharp turns, concealed burglars/robbers, etc.).
[quote]I have experiences in the elite navy seals with relatives who are part of navy seals[/QUOTE]
I just told you, we had a Watch in our own neighborhood. We caught a burglar just by setting up a communication network.
I literally have experience with this, and I know relatives who have actually done it as part of 55+ gated communities. I don't see what your point is.
Point is, not every neighborhood is exactly like yours. You can't just assume that'd it work for this specific neighborhood. You can't just assume that'd everyone there would be willing to join the watch. Some people are afraid of getting involved in anything, even if they don't have to step out of their house.
[QUOTE=Get Swag Son;41469553]Point is, not every neighborhood is exactly like yours. You can't just assume that'd it work for this specific neighborhood. You can't just assume that'd everyone there would be willing to join the watch. Some people are afraid of getting involved in anything, even if they don't have to step out of their house.[/QUOTE]
That still doesn't justify having people endanger themselves by following criminals.
You can seriously get yourself - and your loved ones - hurt by following a potential burglar or professional criminal.
You should never justify a shitty action because it's too hard to take other precautions. Even though there's no proof to begin with that a phone system would not work (certainly, several different households were willing to watch the struggle and call 911).
[QUOTE=Reimu;41469601]That still doesn't justify having people endanger themselves by following criminals.
You can seriously get yourself - and your loved ones - hurt by following a potential burglar or professional criminal.[/QUOTE]
There is a difference between following someone and keeping an eye on them from a distance. (In this case Trayvon turned around to confront him).
[QUOTE=Reimu;41469601]You should never justify a shitty action because it's too hard to take other precautions. Even though there's no proof to begin with that a phone system would not work (certainly, several different households were willing to watch the struggle and call 911).[/QUOTE]
Not justifying his actions or saying he did every right thing, but don't act as if Trayvon's actions had nothing to do with this.
Yeah, several households probably watched the struggle and called 911 because it was right in their back back yard. That doesn't imply that they would take time out of their day to phone non-emergency police so they could report on him. It is a good system, but you don't know how the people who lived here are. Neither do I, that's why I'm not criticizing the watch in their neighborhood.
[QUOTE=Get Swag Son;41469683]There is a difference between following someone and keeping an eye on them from a distance. (In this case Trayvon turned around to confront him).[/quote]
Who cares about "following someone" and "keeping an eye on them from a distance" if a burglar is trying to lure you in the first place. If someone wanted to target Zimmerman's house, they could have watched him pull into the community, lured him away from his house, and had another group of men rob or invade his home.
Besides, a burglar or criminal who wants to put you in danger is going to find a way to do that. "Following" and "Keeping an eye on" becomes moot if a clever criminal knows how to lure people like Zimmerman into danger. Which, with how Zimmerman was willing to leave his car in order to follow Trayvon, is relatively probable.
[quote]Not justifying his actions or saying he did every right thing, but don't act as if Trayvon's actions had nothing to do with this.
Yeah, several households probably watched the struggle and called 911 because it was right in their back back yard. That doesn't imply that they would take time out of their day to phone non-emergency police so they could report on him. It is a good system, but you don't know how the people who lived here are. Neither do I, that's why I'm not criticizing the watch in their neighborhood.[/QUOTE]
Why do you keep saying I'm only blaming Zimmerman? Who threw the punch and started pummeling the other to the ground? Trayvon never had a right for a moment to hit Zimmerman. That's not the point of what I'm trying to say. It's clear that Trayvon had a history with theft and fighting and had no right to hit Zimmerman.
It's fair enough to claim that not everyone would have the time to phone a non-emergency, but it's very probable that you would at least have one volunteer per street at the bare minimum. Regardless, it should be clear that having one sole Watch member physically follow someone is a terrible idea. Even if the phone system won't work, you should never leave your house if there are potential burglars/robbers in the area. It's one of the worst things you can do, and one of the top "DO NOT'S" on every safety list.
So murder charges aside this guy has shown he's really not fit to be a cop and I really hope he doesn't continue pursuing that career in criminal justice
[QUOTE=Mexican;41469822]So murder charges aside this guy has shown he's really not fit to be a cop and I really hope he doesn't continue pursuing that career in criminal justice[/QUOTE]
he really shouldn't quit his day job :v:
[QUOTE=Reimu;41469798]Who cares about "following someone" and "keeping an eye on them from a distance" if a burglar is trying to lure you in the first place. If someone wanted to target Zimmerman's house, they could have watched him pull into the community, lured him away from his house, and had another group of men rob or invade his home.
Besides, a burglar or criminal who wants to put you in danger is going to find a way to do that. "Following" and "Keeping an eye on" becomes moot if a clever criminal knows how to lure people like Zimmerman into danger. Which, with how Zimmerman was willing to leave his car in order to follow Trayvon, is relatively probable.
Why do you keep saying I'm only blaming Zimmerman? Who threw the punch and started pummeling the other to the ground? Trayvon never had a right for a moment to hit Zimmerman. That's not the point of what I'm trying to say. It's clear that Trayvon had a history with theft and fighting and had no right to hit Zimmerman.
It's fair enough to claim that not everyone would have the time to phone a non-emergency, but it's very probable that you would at least have one volunteer per street at the bare minimum. Regardless, it should be clear that having one sole Watch member physically follow someone is a terrible idea. Even if the phone system won't work, you should never leave your house if there are potential burglars/robbers in the area. It's one of the worst things you can do, and one of the top "DO NOT'S" on every safety list.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, if he ran his watch better this wouldn't have happened, I completely agree. Point is, you don't know the neighborhood.
It is really upsetting getting into debates with people over the case and then they resort to ad hominems.
[QUOTE=Griffster26;41469955]It is really upsetting getting into debates with people over the case and then they resort to ad hominems.[/QUOTE]
That, and the amount of misinformation on both sides.
Many people don't know Trayvon's history with theft and violence, and many people know nothing about Zimmerman's former police record. Zimmerman's case isn't even the best to fight SYG, either. Out of the many odd and troubling cases where SYG was used, Zimmerman's is one where he clearly had a right to shoot Trayvon when he was getting pummeled on the ground.
One thing that bugs me, yes it's bad that the media used older pictures to make him appear more innocent, but why does the fact that he was older keep getting cited as evidence that he WASN'T innocent. That's either ageism or indirect racism. Also back at the beginning people kept finding his internet posts with swear words and saying general ghetto culture shit, and apparently that meant he was less innocent too. Now it's the drugs thing, like even if he uses recreational drugs that justifies following and confronting him. Yes, the media picked for reasons to demonize Zimmerman, but the internet did the same to Trayvon, and most of the time when you get down to it it was because he was a black man which intimidated people
[QUOTE=Mr.95;41460018]Zimmerman is the KKKiller of innocent young children saints that didn't do anything wrong, it's a plot by the white man
[IMG]http://puu.sh/3CNPV.png[/IMG]
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Trolling / racism" - MaxOfS2D))[/highlight][/QUOTE]
Should of been permabanned.
[IMG]http://cdn.straightfromthea.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/gob6ifj-tw1.jpg[/IMG]
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