• Donald Trump says 'any negative polls are fake news'
    122 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Saturn V;51784031]just cuz the system's shit doesn't make trump an illegitimate president he's a retard but a legitimate retard[/QUOTE] to take this to the extreme, if a "democratic country" existed where the only person who got to vote was the president and he voted for himself every time, that wouldn't make him a legitimate president just because he was "elected by the system"
[QUOTE=Citizen Insane;51784168]It's scary how he can ramble and spit bullshit like this every day, and somehow people will still support him.[/QUOTE] 'he says it like it is'
[QUOTE=Bertie;51784051]The type of indirect democracy in the US that has operated since before the 19th century never called for a majority of voters, only a majority in the electoral college. This system was never the same nor claimed to be the same as other democracies. Is it a flawed system that has elected someone unfairly? Debatable, many including me would say yes. Does that make Trump illegitimate? No.[/QUOTE] My point is that it's not a democracy (which literally means "power to the people") if the will of the majority of the people is not being followed. If following the will of a majority is not necessary for a system to be democratic, then dictatorships are democracies too. They just happen to follow the will of a single individual within the people. Thus either the US is an illegitimate democracy or Trump is an illegitimate president.
[QUOTE=_Axel;51784191]My point is that it's not a democracy (which literally means "power to the people") if the will of the majority of the people is not being followed. If following the will of a majority is not necessary for a system to be democratic, then dictatorships are democracies too. They just happen to follow the will of a single individual within the people. Thus either the US is an illegitimate democracy or Trump is an illegitimate president.[/QUOTE] Then the US is an illegitimate democracy. Trump played by the rules. Under his own system, he is legitimate.
Trump is legitimate under the system that elected him. You may argue that [I]the system[/I] is illegitimate, but legitimacy within a system is decided by the system. On the topic, [I]"any negative polls are fake news"[/I] is seriously an example of something that can never be said by anyone without being delusional. He continuously surprises me with how obvious he is about his propaganda and lies. It's literally the same as saying [I]"I am always right."[/I]
[QUOTE=Citizen Insane;51784168]It's scary how he can ramble and spit bullshit like this every day, and somehow people will still support him.[/QUOTE] Because the reason they voted for him wasn't to get smart, elaborate essays from him. They don't care about his dumb tweets. You judge people based on tweets, they don't. [editline]6th February 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Glent;51784177]to take this to the extreme, if a "democratic country" existed where the only person who got to vote was the president and he voted for himself every time, that wouldn't make him a legitimate president just because he was "elected by the system"[/QUOTE] Yes he would be a legitimate president if he never broke the law to become and continue being a president. You can only argue that the system is not a "legitimate democracy".
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;51784204]Because the reason they voted for him wasn't to get smart, elaborate essays from him. They don't care about his dumb tweets. You judge people based on tweets, they don't.[/QUOTE] And that's scary, because his 'dumb tweets' are actual messages that are broadcast to actual everybody in the actual world, and his supporters don't care that they're full of stupidity and blatant lies.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;51784149]European Union's and it's council's rule is illegitimate then.[/QUOTE] Maybe? What system are you referring to in particular?
You could line up the majority of americans in the country, have each of them walk up to his face and say "We don't want this stupid bullshit", and he'd still go "NOPE I'M RIGHT YOU GUYS WANT THIS" the dude is [I]deeply[/I] delusional and egotistic, and he lives in his own little world where anything that doesn't support what he's decided to believe must be false
My US citizens, you should respect your president. Follow him like an king.
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;51784214]And that's scary, because his 'dumb tweets' are actual messages that are broadcast to actual everybody in the actual world, and his supporters don't care that they're full of stupidity and blatant lies.[/QUOTE] Sure, I'm not saying it's not. But it's important to understand why people voted for him. He could have been openly sexist and never apologize for the "grab them by the pussy" recording and just laugh it off and his support would barely nudge, people who voted for him do not care about that. Nor they care about his retarded tweets. They voted for him for one of these reasons: 1. They decided that 8 years under Obama was shit for them and they just can't handle Hillary so they'd rather risk picking a bag of cats because at least there's a chance for them to get some changes they will like. They would take ANYTHING other than getting another 4 years of the same or worse establishment, which the constant demonization and super-biased media during the election didn't help at all. 2. They actually liked some of his ideas like the ones about financial reforms (which to be fair some of them I've heard are good, not going to press this too hardly though because I haven't read the specifics). 3. They have bought to his fearmongering about Islamists and Mexicans being the biggest threat to America. Almost nobody voted for him because they think he's a nice and pleasant guy. [QUOTE=_Axel;51784222]Maybe? What system are you referring to in particular?[/QUOTE] The European Council and it's power especially.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;51784278]Sure, I'm not saying it's not. But it's important to understand why people voted for him.[/QUOTE] I agree. I assumed you were because you made the argument to someone who was simply stating that it's scary. But I agree with pretty much all of that, there's definitely a large portion of blame to put on the democrats for not trying to figure out how to appeal to those people as democrats. Personally I still fault the system the most: If America had a ranked choice voting system, third parties could form and run with no worry and hassle, and new ideas could flourish and perhaps find ways to unite those people that are currently so polarized. I mean, it looks like Bernie Sanders already somewhat succeeded at that. The big problem is that there's two sides that can't figure each other out and are instead directly opposed to each other. I think that's why people voted for him. But yeah, Trump is scary and delusional and needs to go away regardless.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;51784204]Because the reason they voted for him wasn't to get smart, elaborate essays from him. They don't care about his dumb tweets. You judge people based on tweets, they don't. [editline]6th February 2017[/editline] Yes he would be a legitimate president if he never broke the law to become and continue being a president. You can only argue that the system is not a "legitimate democracy".[/QUOTE] In politics, legitimacy has a different meaning than it does in law. In general, for a government to hold legitimacy, it should be elected by a majority (or at least a plurality) of voters, in a democratically fair system of election, should be legally accountable to the electorate and should follow the mandate set out in their election campaign. My example fail the "democratically fair system of election" criteria - which is just an extreme example to show that just because the system is in place doesn't mean it inherently confers legitimacy to the elected official if the system itself is undemocratic. Legitimacy in politics has more to do with the people's perception of the governments "right to govern" than it does with the word of law.
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;51784326]I agree. I assumed you were because you made the argument to someone who was simply stating that it's scary. But I agree with pretty much all of that, there's definitely a large portion of blame to put on the democrats for not trying to figure out how to appeal to those people as democrats. Personally I still fault the system the most:[B] If America had a ranked choice voting system, [/B]third parties could form and run with no worry and hassle, and new ideas could flourish and perhaps find ways to unite those people that are currently so polarized. I mean, it looks like Bernie Sanders already somewhat succeeded at that. The big problem is that there's two sides that can't figure each other out and are instead directly opposed to each other. I think that's why people voted for him. But yeah, Trump is scary and delusional and needs to go away regardless.[/QUOTE] Oh fuck yes please. I said the same thing in another thread but every democracy should have it. Look at it this way though. If the US, and the entire world for that matter, manages to survive Trump's presidency we actually might get a good center-left candidate next time, not only in US election as well. Now people will be asking "Okay, how do we not make this happen again?".
[QUOTE=_Axel;51784191]My point is that it's not a democracy (which literally means "power to the people") if the will of the majority of the people is not being followed. If following the will of a majority is not necessary for a system to be democratic, then dictatorships are democracies too. They just happen to follow the will of a single individual within the people. Thus either the US is an illegitimate democracy or Trump is an illegitimate president.[/QUOTE] I hate to be the guy to say this, but the US isn't a democracy. It's a republic.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;51784278]The European Council and it's power especially.[/QUOTE] What do you mean? The European Council consists of each member state's head of state, which were each elected democratically by their country's people. It's essentially a collective head of state.
[QUOTE=FlakTheMighty;51784358]I hate to be the guy to say this, but the US isn't a democracy. It's a republic.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=thelurker1234;51726060]You could create a drinking game for every time this post shows up christ's sake[/QUOTE] My sorrows drowned, all feeling dissipates
[QUOTE=FlakTheMighty;51784358]I hate to be the guy to say this, but the US isn't a democracy. It's a republic.[/QUOTE] You're right to hate to be the guy to say this, because that's a very stupid thing to say. Guess what? France is a Republic too. A [I]Democratic[/I] Republic. Just like the US is supposed to be. [QUOTE=.Isak.;51725680]The US is a democratic representative constitutional presidential federal republic. We are democratic because we use a system of government by the votes of the people of the state. We are representative (rather than direct or participatory) because we elect representatives rather than directly vote on issues. We are constitutional because we have a constitution that establishes the norms of the state. We are presidential because we use a presidential electoral system (rather than say, a parliamentary system). We are federal because we are a federal union of states, centrally organized under a central governing body, rather than a confederal system organized non-centrally. We are a republic because we are ruled by the people (rather than a monarch). "We are a Republic not a democracy" is like saying "we're a BMW not an automobile."[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=FlakTheMighty;51784358]I hate to be the guy to say this, but the US isn't a democracy. It's a republic.[/QUOTE] Ireland, Switzerland, the United States, France and Germany are all Republics. Norway, Sweden and the United Kingdom are all Monarchies. These countries are also democratic. Don't conflate democratic traditions with a totally democratic form of government, which is infeasible on a large scale.
[QUOTE=FlakTheMighty;51784358]I hate to be the guy to say this, but the US isn't a democracy. It's a republic.[/QUOTE] Ask yourself why there even is an election with people voting in America. You might come to the conclusion that, whether you call it a 'democracy' or a 'republic' or whatever, the election system sucks.
[QUOTE=_Axel;51784367]What do you mean? The European Council consists of each member state's head of state, which were each elected democratically by their country's people. It's essentially a collective head of state.[/QUOTE] Sorry, I meant the Commission, they are elected by basically the parliament through the Commission's president and not in general election. But I'd rather not derail this thread from Trump to the EU anymore. We can take it to PM if you wish.
If he keeps this up, it's hard to imagine him conceding defeat if he loses in 2020, then the US really would be fucked.
[QUOTE=FlakTheMighty;51784358]I hate to be the guy to say this, but the US isn't a democracy. It's a republic.[/QUOTE] What are you talking about, the US is a democracy? A republic is a form of democracy you nitwit. Unless you're talking about a pure democracy, which has only ever occurred once and that was Athens, and even then only landowners were considered citizens that had the right to vote. A pure democracy is completely and utterly infeasible in a modern society.
[QUOTE=FlakTheMighty;51784358]I hate to be the guy to say this, but the US isn't a democracy. It's a republic.[/QUOTE] i wish that saying "its a republic not a democracy" was bannable republics and democracies are not mutually exclusive things. the united states is both a republic and democracy where the fuck did this meme of "republic not democracy" even come from?
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;51784432]Getting off topic, but we have the technology to make it feasible.[/QUOTE] Can't wait for JC to merge with Helios
[QUOTE=FlakTheMighty;51784358]I hate to be the guy to say this, but the US isn't a democracy. It's a republic.[/QUOTE] You really should hate to be the guy who says this. A republic is a [B]representative democracy.[/B] Being a republic does not revoke the power vested within public opinion. We, the people, elect our representatives that carry out the will of the electorate. Can people please stop saying this? It's a total misdirection. You can even search it up on google and the first result is as follows: [quote]a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.[/quote]
As a [i]Democratic[/i] Republic we give away our power to those that are voted in by the people to "do the peoples will" but those people end up doing the opposite of what the people want. All I'm saying there. And to be even more specific, the United States is a federal republic, which is heavily built upon democracy but has major differences.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51784437]i wish that saying "its a republic not a democracy" was bannable republics and democracies are not mutually exclusive things. the united states is both a republic and democracy where the fuck did this meme of "republic not democracy" even come from?[/QUOTE] Governments can be difficult to describe, and for simplicity's sake a lot of people use words like "democracy" and "republic" as either interchangeable or mutually exclusive terms. The former is technically incorrect but generally doesn't misinterpret how a government functions. The latter, however, is just ignorant.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;51783987][media]https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/828575949268606977[/media] He does what now?[/QUOTE] It's like his speech is slowly deteriorating with each day.
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;51784696]It's like his speech is slowly deteriorating with each day.[/QUOTE] entirely possible he's got alzheimers or something
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