Donald Trump says 'any negative polls are fake news'
122 replies, posted
I fucking love this man.
[QUOTE=papaya;51784708]entirely possible he's got alzheimers or something[/QUOTE]
That possibility would be truly terrifying to contemplate.
[QUOTE=Zonesylvania;51784731]That possibility would be truly terrifying to contemplate.[/QUOTE]
he cant find the light switch anymore :freakout:
[QUOTE=_Axel;51784037]I'd say legitimacy under a democratic system necessarily implies being the choice of the majority of voters.[/QUOTE]
We're not a true democracy. We've never been a true democracy, we'll never be a true democracy unless our leaders make it a one.
Until my vote stops being a literal throwaway, the power is very much in the hands of the government. In ancient Greece, each citizen who could vote directly voted to go to war. In America, that vote is done by our federal government, not us.
Trump WAS elected by the majority of voters, because the voters aren't the people, they're the electoral college.
[QUOTE=Zonesylvania;51784731]That possibility would be truly terrifying to contemplate.[/QUOTE]
We've had a president with Alzheimer's before, granted it didn't start until the end of his second term. And he was first elected at an earlier age than Trump so the risk was actually lower at the time.
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;51784696]It's like his speech is slowly deteriorating with each day.[/QUOTE]
old people dont get how twitter works so instead of making short, concise points they try and cram every fucking thing in to a single garbled tweet
[editline]6th February 2017[/editline]
doesnt help when you're the goddamn president and you're trying to convey shit on twitter, its fucking stupid for him to even still be doing this shit
Just Donald Trump shutting down freedom of press a little more
Nothing to see here
I think what Sobotnik is getting at is that the system itself is illegitimate for being so corrupt and broken that it produces the exact wrong person for the presidency. Which is actually a pretty fair point.
On paper the electoral process by which Trump was elected is perfectly legitimate and legal, but if our only benchmark for legitimacy is what's written on paper, then plenty of unjust laws would still be on the books. The reality is that the electoral system is not only failing, it is actively harming the country. So it kind of makes sense to call the system (and therefore the president) illegitimate if the intention is to provoke a change.
[QUOTE=mcharest;51784904]I think what Sobotnik is getting at is that the system itself is illegitimate for being so corrupt and broken that it produces the exact wrong person for the presidency. Which is actually a pretty fair point.
On paper the electoral process by which Trump was elected is perfectly legitimate and legal, but if our only benchmark for legitimacy is what's written on paper, then plenty of unjust laws would still be on the books. The reality is that the electoral system is not only failing, it is actively harming the country. So it kind of makes sense to call the system illegitimate with the intention of provoking a change.[/QUOTE]
I think calling him illegitimate is a dangerous line of thinking because it shifts the blame from the electoral college to Trump. The blame should be focused more on the busted system before the person benefiting from it.
[QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;51784917]I think calling him illegitimate is a dangerous line of thinking because it shifts the blame from the electoral college to Trump. The blame should be focused more on the busted system before the person benefiting from it.[/QUOTE]
I'd disagree tbh. Yeah the college is broken but how about remove the megalomaniacal retard from office before he can do more harm, then look at four years down the line.
[QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;51784917]I think calling him illegitimate is a dangerous line of thinking because it shifts the blame from the electoral college to Trump. The blame should be focused more on the busted system before the person benefiting from it.[/QUOTE]
How is it a busted system? It's working exactly how it was meant to and has since the founding of the country, people say it's busted as if it's something new. It's always been this way. It's not a busted system, just a system that many appear to disagree with
[QUOTE=ChinChilla;51785017]How is it a busted system? It's working exactly how it was meant to and has since the founding of the country, people say it's busted as if it's something new. It's always been this way. It's not a busted system, just a system that many appear to disagree with[/QUOTE]
It's busted because the choice of the majority of the population doesn't matter, which is supposed to be the whole point of a democratic election.
ABC's polling was pretty close to the final result, putting Clinton at +4 on Monday before Election Day. NBC's was further away at +6 for Clinton. As far as I can tell CNN doesn't have a national polling apparatus but their polls in specific states ranged from very close to only pretty close, and included headlines [URL="http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/01/politics/presidential-poll-donald-trump-hillary-clinton-abc/"]like[/URL] [URL="http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/01/politics/presidential-poll-donald-trump-hillary-clinton-abc/"]these[/URL] the days up to the election.
[QUOTE=EcksDee;51784993]I'd disagree tbh. Yeah the college is broken but how about remove the megalomaniacal retard from office before he can do more harm, then look at four years down the line.[/QUOTE]
I mean it's two different problems, I sort of agree but I would add that fixing the election system is not something you want to put off for too long.
On this "is trump legitimate or not" business, if one of the possible conclusions is that we should sit here twiddling our thumbs for four years because "oh well I guess we voted for him," yeah that's not democracy, that's called suicide.
The guy might as well be psychotic, his ego prevents him from doing anything to actually help the country and he's just been going around destroying shit ever since he started his campaign. Not only is he actively doing damage, he conned the fuck out of his voters with all the drain the swamp and anti-wall street BS. If he was elected legitimately he sure as fuck isn't legitimate now.
[QUOTE=Splarg!;51343802]Trump's "movement" is fraud. He connected with people on an emotional level while running on flimsy policies that none of them bothered to scrutinize. Neither half of the country is going to get what they want.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Bertie;51784202]Then the US is an illegitimate democracy. Trump played by the rules. Under his own system, he is legitimate.[/QUOTE]
The Russians that hacked the DNC didn't seem very legitimate to me.
[QUOTE=simkas;51785040]It's busted because the choice of the majority of the population doesn't matter, which is supposed to be the whole point of a democratic election.[/QUOTE]
What majority did May or Merkel have? Either be consistent with criticism (I see nobody slandering Germany's system) or look into the US system and actually seek out why it is that way (hint, it's so the Executive has a mandate over the states).
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51784055]He was elected according to law, but not in accordance with accepted standards and rules [B]I think[/B]. He is not legitimate no matter how much bullshit is used to mask this.[/QUOTE]
There you go.
[QUOTE=benwaddi;51785171]What majority did May or Merkel have? Either be consistent with criticism (I see nobody slandering Germany's system) or look into the US system and actually seek out why it is that way (hint, it's so the Executive has a mandate over the states).[/QUOTE]
Neither May or Merkel is the president of their countries. That's a different thing.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51785223]There you go.[/QUOTE]
Conman lies his way into the white house and we're supposed to just accept it apparently.
~Lügenpresse~
[QUOTE=simkas;51785040]It's busted because the choice of the majority of the population doesn't matter, which is supposed to be the whole point of a democratic election.[/QUOTE]
That's how it was designed. Don't think of it as population voting. It's the counties within each state that make the votes. They made it county based so rural and smaller areas could still have sway. That's why even though millions voted democratic in California, those votes only came from a handful of Dem counties whereas the majority of the counties voted republic
[QUOTE=ChinChilla;51785342]That's how it was designed. Don't think of it as population voting. It's the counties within each state that make the votes. They made it county based so rural and smaller areas could still have sway. That's why even though millions voted democratic in California, those votes only came from a handful of Dem counties whereas the majority of the counties voted republic[/QUOTE]
actually rural areas don't have a sway at all in politics. it's mostly a few medium-biggish states such as ohio or florida which are the focus of attention.
in the electoral college system you can very safely disregard the rural states because they all vote one way anyways
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51785366]actually rural areas don't have a sway at all in politics. it's mostly a few medium-biggish states such as ohio or florida which are the focus of attention.
in the electoral college system you can very safely disregard the rural states because they all vote one way anyways[/QUOTE]
Yes I'm sure that's how many people think, and I'm betting those are the same people that were shellshocked when trump won
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51784010]The fact he was put in power by a convoluted system whereby primaries, party politics, gerrymandering, the electoral college, and the lack of accountability all combined to give a president that nobody wants, that is thoroughly unfit for the job, and is actively damaging the country.[/QUOTE]
That's literally been the case every 4 years since this countries birth. There were better options than Obama out there, we just don't get to meet them.
[QUOTE=simkas;51785251]Neither May or Merkel is the president of their countries. That's a different thing.[/QUOTE]
They are the heads of their respective executive branches though... but I'll play along, where is Gauck's majority? He won no national popular vote that I can see.
[QUOTE=ChinChilla;51785398]Yes I'm sure that's how many people think, and I'm betting those are the same people that were shellshocked when trump won[/QUOTE]
Urban and rural aren't the causes for the electoral college, it was made so the states and people (through inflating the electors for their state) together could elect a president due to the [URL="http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed39.asp"]extent of his powers[/URL].
[QUOTE=ChinChilla;51785342]That's how it was designed. Don't think of it as population voting. It's the counties within each state that make the votes. [B]They made it county based so rural and smaller areas could still have sway.[/B] That's why even though millions voted democratic in California, those votes only came from a handful of Dem counties whereas the majority of the counties voted republic[/QUOTE]
Oh please, not this bullshit again...
[QUOTE=_Axel;51785433]Oh please, not this bullshit again...[/QUOTE]
Okay, please elaborate then, if trump didn't win from majority county votes then how exactly?
[QUOTE=ChinChilla;51785342]That's how it was designed. Don't think of it as population voting. It's the counties within each state that make the votes. They made it county based so rural and smaller areas could still have sway. That's why even though millions voted democratic in California, those votes only came from a handful of Dem counties whereas the majority of the counties voted republic[/QUOTE]
But why should smaller rural areas have sway? There's less people there, so they should have less sway. That's what democracy is, you can't have a democracy when some people will just have more say in an election just because they live in a less populated area.
[QUOTE=ChinChilla;51785450]Okay, please elaborate then, if trump didn't win from majority county votes then how exactly?[/QUOTE]
I was referring to the whole "without the electoral college only a few cities would decide for everybody" nonsense.
just imagine the horror of a system that follows the will of a majority of the population
can you even conceive of how abominable it would be if a minority didn't decide the fate of the majority
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