• New 'Beauty and the Beast' to feature Disney's first 'exclusively gay moment' in film
    97 replies, posted
[QUOTE=LegndNikko;51897487]Yes. Say a woman starts dating a man, who expresses bisexual desires. That women will then fear her partner's sexual desires involving men, thinking "I can't fulfill those; I'm unsatisfactory; he might cheat on me to."[/QUOTE] Sounds like insecurity, really. If you can't trust your partner, why bother entering a relationship with them? The fact they'd actually blame it on their romantic partner's sexual preference is even worse, because it's dehumanizing.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;51897473]When I came out to my stepdad when I was younger he claimed that bisexuality didn't exist, and that it was just that gay people "go back to being straight sometimes" for a little while or some such shit[/QUOTE] I was raised in an incredibly homophobic environment, I was told that being gay was an illness. The way my stepdad put it, it progressed thusly: You start healthy and straight, then you start liking men, then you inevitably become a paedophile child molester. That was the justification as to why if I turned out gay, he would literally murder me. So obviously, I went through puberty, discovered was attracted to both men and women, and with a lack of LGBT role models to look up to or any other positive representation- Having nothing but what I had been taught about sexuality from my family to go on- I thought something was wrong with me and that I was inevitably going to become some kind of disgusting rapist with this being ~the first stage!~. IMO Bisexuality is super confusing on a personal level because it's not as simple as not being attracted to the opposite sex, so there's more room for the ignorance of others and self doubt to take hold. You are ~half normal~ so it's easier to see suppressing part of your identity as realistic or positive. [QUOTE=StonedPenguin;51896335]Gotta pander to those who love political correctness.[/QUOTE] And that's why stupid shit like this pisses me off more than you would think. With a little representation It would have been far far easier for me to have made peace with my sexuality- Without any positive representation to look to, I felt like I was isolated, I had never seen or even heard of anyone else like me outside of my stepdads rants about the "fucking poofters" and my classmates using "ur a gay" as this unforgivable insult. So if more of ~ the dreaded political correctness!~ means less kids growing up feeling the same unnecessary self loathing that I did, you would have to be a complete turd to whinge and bitch about it because you think gays are icky or have some kind of dumb chip on your shoulder about ~sjws~
[QUOTE=archangel125;51897493]Sounds like insecurity, really. If you can't trust your partner, why bother entering a relationship with them? The fact they'd actually blame it on their romantic partner's sexual preference is even worse, because it's dehumanizing.[/QUOTE] Welcome to the shit that bisexual people face. You have other shit such as bi-erasure, where if a character is paired heterosexually and then homosexually, they're occasionally treated as "from straight to gay," instead of bisexual.
Being bisexual is...interesting, to say the least. We get a lot of shit both from people who hate LGBT people in general, and from within the community itself as well. Add that to being transgender and you're in for a fun (read: awful) time from both ends of the spectrum. After all, "in LGBT, the B and T are silent." Biphobia is an all too common problem these days.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;51896928]Remember that The Simpsons had a very similar relationship situation and that was back in the early nineties. They didn't have to go out and say it but everyone who was an adult knew what was going on.[/QUOTE] Not to mention that entire episode about Homer making a friend and panicking when he learns he's gay, only to overcome his latent homophobia.
I'm going to throw out a wild guess here based on what I learned today. "Genderfluid" people get a lot of shit from transgendered people. And this is a bias I probably have, too, because the idea of being 'genderfluid' doesn't fit into my understanding of gender dysphoria at all and I'm not sure it's legit.
It's always a fucking trip when I respond to something from page 1 and page 2 has gone completely off the rails.
[QUOTE=StonedPenguin;51896335]Gotta pander to those who love political correctness.[/QUOTE] A literal non issue And you're ready to say it's a bigger issue [editline]1st March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=archangel125;51897407]That's pretty fucked up. None of the gay friends I've had have ever openly expressed any bigotry with regards to bisexual people. I had no idea they got shit from the LGBT community, too.[/QUOTE] I had a gay friend look me in the eye and say "You can't have both, you have to choose", being bisexual doesn't cause a lot of issues but it's weird that we often feel like we have no allies. [editline]1st March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=J!NX;51897194]its a matter of them wishing they were one thing, rather than both. A lot of people get the idea that they are "confused" or "Sexual deviants" because they "chose to pick both" when in reality its out of their control and usually they aren't comfortable with it and it frustrates them. PERSONALLY I thought that it would be a blessing, because it'd let me pick whoever I want, but its not that simple. Gaston being openly bisexual or even closeted but blatantly for example might create a sort of misunderstanding of the reality of bisexuality. I don't really feel like he'd be the right pick for "THE" first whateversexual disney character. He seems to be somewhat of a deviant so it'd be a bit off. Hopefully this makes sense at least.[/QUOTE] It's really quite annoying speaking from personal preference.
[QUOTE=archangel125;51897556]I'm going to throw out a wild guess here based on what I learned today. "Genderfluid" people get a lot of shit from transgendered people. And this is a bias I probably have, too, because the idea of being 'genderfluid' doesn't fit into my understanding of gender dysphoria at all and I'm not sure it's legit.[/QUOTE] I've never experienced such, no. The most extreme case of transgender people expressing bigotry is Caitlyn Jenner's homophobia. And gender dysphoria isn't a binary: yes/no. Extreme cases are treated with gender transitioning. Other times people feel that their anatomy doesn't fit either their sexuality or how they feel in general, but not to an extreme that someone born with a penis will be a transwoman. For example, I've been thinking of myself as genderqueer, which is in the same realm of "genderfluid," that being a non-binary gender identification. I was born and raised as a boy, and eventually came to think of myself as a femme man. That didn't work out to well, either, as I found myself identifying with less and less of male gender roles. Now, I've thought about: do I hate my body? In a way, sure. I experience dysphoria in ways that I wish my body were different to match what I prefer. But not in a way that causes me stress/anxiety when I look in the mirror. I've also thought about the idea of using female pronouns: didn't feel necessary, or right. Felt odd. I can assure you, it's legitimate. It's complicated, and genderfluid may very well just be a weird form of genderqueer, but it makes sense from my perspective.
[QUOTE=LegndNikko;51897889]I've never experienced such, no. The most extreme case of transgender people expressing bigotry is Caitlyn Jenner's homophobia. And gender dysphoria isn't a binary: yes/no. Extreme cases are treated with gender transitioning. Other times people feel that their anatomy doesn't fit either their sexuality or how they feel in general, but not to an extreme that someone born with a penis will be a transwoman. For example, I've been thinking of myself as genderqueer, which is in the same realm of "genderfluid," that being a non-binary gender identification. I was born and raised as a boy, and eventually came to think of myself as a femme man. That didn't work out to well, either, as I found myself identifying with less and less of male gender roles. Now, I've thought about: do I hate my body? In a way, sure. I experience dysphoria in ways that I wish my body were different to match what I prefer. But not in a way that causes me stress/anxiety when I look in the mirror. I've also thought about the idea of using female pronouns: didn't feel necessary, or right. Felt odd. I can assure you, it's legitimate. It's complicated, and genderfluid may very well just be a weird form of genderqueer, but it makes sense from my perspective.[/QUOTE] Well, I haven't met many transgender people, so I'm not certain how it works. Being in, say, a male body and feeling you should've been born female is pretty cut and dry. Is not liking your body shape in your own gender equal to that? And when you talk about gender roles, are you talking about societal expectations of males and females? In western countries, progressive ones at least, those lines are becoming increasingly blurred, aren't they?
[QUOTE=archangel125;51897910]Well, I haven't met many transgender people, so I'm not certain how it works. Being in, say, a male body and feeling you should've been born female is pretty cut and dry. Is not liking your body shape in your own gender equal to that? And when you talk about gender roles, are you talking about societal expectations of males and females? In western countries, progressive ones at least, those lines are becoming increasingly blurred, aren't they?[/QUOTE] I don't think it's cut and dry because I don't experience those feelings as intensely and as often. Gender dysphoria, as a condition to be considered and handled, is a lot more than that. It's a rare phenomenon for me, not a life I live. I reject what I'm "supposed to be," and [I]occasionally[/I] wish my body were biologically different. And yes, I am speaking of societal expectations of men and women, and yes, those lines are becoming increasingly blurred... For women. In my experience, those lines are a lot more broad and blurry for women than for men, due to me experiencing significant "gender policing" (that is, negative reactions for being non-conforming as a "man"). There are debates that go into why that may be, but I feel we've wandered far enough off topic, for this thread.
[QUOTE=LegndNikko;51897942]I don't think it's cut and dry because I don't experience those feelings as intensely and as often. Gender dysphoria, as a condition to be considered and handled, is a lot more than that. It's a rare phenomenon for me, not a life I live. I reject what I'm "supposed to be," and [I]occasionally[/I] wish my body were biologically different. And yes, I am speaking of societal expectations of men and women, and yes, those lines are becoming increasingly blurred... For women. In my experience, those lines are a lot more broad and blurry for women than for men, due to me experiencing significant "gender policing" (that is, negative reactions for being non-conforming as a "man"). There are debates that go into why that may be, but I feel we've wandered far enough off topic, for this thread.[/QUOTE] I guess I understand. No reason gender identity shouldn't be on a spectrum when everything from sexual orientation to ethnicity is. And with that, yeah, I'll stop derailing.
I don't see any issue with this, it doesn't really break or change his character. Do wish people would stop making a big deal out of it, though.
Belle's dress in this movie is the most disappointing thing I have ever seen. Will not be watching it, gay scene or not.
[QUOTE=usaokay;51896319]Lesbian incest isn't what I asked for.[/QUOTE] no reason to complain now :smug: [sp]i fully acknowledge my deviancy, thank you very much[/sp]
[QUOTE=Jarokwa;51896787]i wish everyone could just be normal and respect other people's sexuality/gender/race/[B]pizza toppings.[/B][/QUOTE]Over the line, dude.
oh boy can't wait my country ban this movie
On one hand normalization of LGBT is definitely a good thing. On the other hand, this kinda stuff often feels kinda shoehorned.
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNHgfVzj7Tc[/media] I remember when it was called satire before it was known as prescience.
[quote]"LeFou is somebody who on one day wants to be Gaston and on another day wants to kiss Gaston,"[/quote] [quote]"He’s confused about what he wants,"[/quote] This sounds like it's out of a deviantart opening to LeFouXGaston bumsex story. [quote]"It’s somebody who’s just realizing that he has these feelings. And Josh makes something really subtle and delicious out of it. And that’s what has its payoff at the end, which I don’t want to give away. But it is a nice, exclusively gay moment in a Disney movie."[/quote] So much for any subtlety when you're announcing it months ahead of time. Kinda just neutral on this to be honest, looking forward to when it's just the norm so it won't look like a "HEY GUYS LOOK AT US WE'RE PROGRESSIVE!"
[QUOTE=Kahgarak;51898879]On one hand normalization of LGBT is definitely a good thing. On the other hand, this kinda stuff often feels kinda shoehorned.[/QUOTE] it feels shoehorned because it's still uncommon. it will be a while before that feeling goes away
[QUOTE=salty peanut v2;51899524]it feels shoehorned because it's still uncommon. it will be a while before that feeling goes away[/QUOTE] The thing is, it will never be common. It's a matter of statistics. You have to go out of your way to write a character as gay, because people are more likely to be straight by a huge margin. It's also a matter of the relevance for the story and who's telling the story. Disney (and Hollywood) have a history of shoehorning things like these. In mass consumed media you appeal to the lowest common denominator, always. So, things like this really stick out. It's like when they made the main characters of SW a woman, a black guy and a latino. I REALLY want to forgett all about this PC bullcrap and enjoy things, but I know somewhere there's a board of executives thinking about these things to appeal to certain audiences. It's REALLY hard to not go looking for ulterior motives.
[QUOTE=Ragekipz;51899610]The thing is, it will never be common. It's a matter of statistics. You have to go out of your way to write a character as gay, because people are more likely to be straight by a huge margin. It's also a matter of the relevance for the story and who's telling the story. Disney (and Hollywood) have a history of shoehorning things like these. In mass consumed media you appeal to the lowest common denominator, always. So, things like this really stick out. [B]It's like when they made the main characters of SW a woman, a black guy and a latino. [/B] I REALLY want to forgett all about this PC bullcrap and enjoy things, but I know somewhere there's a board of executives thinking about these things to appeal to certain audiences. It's REALLY hard to not go looking for ulterior motives.[/QUOTE] I don't think this is really comparable, but it might just be me.
[QUOTE=Pascall;51899623]I don't think this is really comparable, but it might just be me.[/QUOTE] It's not. Neither Poe's or Finn's races are *ever* commented on during the entire film and Ray being female is only brought up in some humour about her and Finn's relationship. I really don't see what the problem with it is.
[QUOTE=Pascall;51899623]I don't think this is really comparable, but it might just be me.[/QUOTE] I think a better example would be when they come out to say that a minor comic book character is gay. [QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51899631]It's not. Neither Poe's or Finn's races are *ever* commented on during the entire film and Ray being female is only brought up in some humour about her and Finn's relationship. I really don't see what the problem with it is.[/QUOTE] That's the thing. It isn't a problem, their gender and race are irrelevant from a story point. But it's really hard to say that it's an unconscious decision from the studio.
The problem is, the more people balk at the inclusion of certain types of characters of varying sexualities or races as "being PC" the more people will inherently celebrate their existence because of this wall of "this is forced" being put up. When people make a claim that every tiny bit of diversity is being PC or shoehorned in, then they're going to make it seem like anything non-white or non-straight or non-male-centered is going to be "for diversity's sake". So what then are the options? Not every inclusion of diversity [I]has[/I] to be subtle. It depends on the medium, the content, the subject, the film/movie/book, etc. You can't really throw a blanket on everything and say that media in general has to stop focusing on being so PC. In Star Wars specifically, Finn and Poe's races don't factor in at all to the story. They were just the best actors for the parts and that's pretty cool! I'm Latino myself but I didn't really think too hard about Oscar Isaac's ethnicity or anything when I saw it. Was more of a passing thought later that it was neat and that was about it. Especially since there are a good few Latino countries and we might not even match culturally lol. As for Rey being a girl, maybe there is a significance to that later in the story and maybe there isn't? Ultimately, I think people need to use a little more caution when saying something is overly PC without comparing/contrasting to other pieces of media, figuring out the content and subject matter, as well as medium, and asking themselves why it's "being PC" if the race/gender/or sexuality of a character doesn't dampen the story at all. This has nothing to do with Beauty and the Beast lol just as an aside. [editline]2nd March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Ragekipz;51899650] That's the thing. It isn't a problem, their gender and race are irrelevant from a story point. But it's really hard to say that it's an unconscious decision from the studio.[/QUOTE] I think you need to ask yourself though why your mental default is white actors/characters? People are diverse by nature, especially in a universe where people are all over the place mixing and matching with all different sorts of people (and aliens, I guess) so to assume that there won't be a good swathe of minorities (which maybe aren't even minorities in-universe but I don't know enough about Star Wars to say) is a little silly, I think. I don't think it was a conscious decision by the studio where they sat down and said "alright boys, we need some minority actors here". I think they chose the best actors for the parts as they came around. [editline]2nd March 2017[/editline] Don't get me wrong, I'm all for diversity not being heralded as "AMAZING AND PROGRESSIVE" by the media because the more they do it the harder they make it for it to become a normal thing, but I don't think the answer to that is to not include diverse casts and characters at all.
[QUOTE=Ragekipz;51899610]The thing is, it will never be common. It's a matter of statistics. You have to go out of your way to write a character as gay, because people are more likely to be straight by a huge margin. It's also a matter of the relevance for the story and who's telling the story. Disney (and Hollywood) have a history of shoehorning things like these. In mass consumed media you appeal to the lowest common denominator, always. So, things like this really stick out. [B]It's like when they made the main characters of SW a woman, a black guy and a latino. [/B] I REALLY want to forgett all about this PC bullcrap and enjoy things, but I know somewhere there's a board of executives thinking about these things to appeal to certain audiences. It's REALLY hard to not go looking for ulterior motives.[/QUOTE] Dunno if you're aware of this. But in the rest of the world, the majority of people out there... aren't white. Shocking, I know.
[QUOTE=archangel125;51899754]Dunno if you're aware of this. But in the rest of the world, the majority of people out there... aren't white. Shocking, I know.[/QUOTE] Nice job being so condescending and missing the point of what Ragekipz was saying entirely.
[QUOTE=RedBaronFlyer;51899929]Nice job being so condescending and missing the point of what Ragekipz was saying.[/QUOTE] I'm an asshole, I know. Something I need to work on. The point I'm making is that Hollywood has historically overly represented the majority in the country it is based in - Light-skinned, straight caucasians. While I can understand that changing this norm draws media attention, even though it shouldn't, I find it very strange that some people still consider a fairer representation of the world's population pandering somehow. Especially in a movie like Star Wars, where I don't believe the characters' phenotypes or genders are at all relevant to the story. Hell, while I can certainly agree that there are more straight than gay/bisexual people in the world, I'm not sure we can really know how wide that margin is without observing changes over generations of progressivism and acceptance. Previous statistics don't really mean much if there was a negative social stigma attached to a certain sexual orientation.
[QUOTE=Ragekipz;51899610]It's like when they made the main characters of SW a woman, a black guy and a latino. I REALLY want to forgett all about this PC bullcrap and enjoy things, but I know [B]somewhere there's a board of executives thinking about these things to appeal to certain audiences[/B].[/QUOTE] This happens for every show you watch, 'PC' or not.
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