One Million Moms Calls for Boycott of Fox’s ‘Lucifer’
92 replies, posted
*snip*
Since you guys are still talking about that free will issue, let me give a little more description on middle knowledge and molinism.
Firstly, God's middle knowledge is the idea that God knows what any person would have done if they were in any situation. So, if I were born to Hitler's parents instead of Hitler, God would know exactly how that would have effected the rest of human history from that point on. As you can imagine, this would create an unimaginably complex web of what ifs for every single person and every possible situation. It's not infinite, but it might as well be from our perspective.
Now, imagine God knowing all of it. Every single possibility of what every person would freely do in every situation. He takes all of this and creates the best possible world. The world were every person is placed in the exact situation were their free choices lead to the best feasible conclusion.
Under this system God foreknew all things. In fact, he created the world so that everything will happen in the way that it happens, but he does it through the free choices of people.
[QUOTE=sgman91;49647473]Since you guys are still talking about that free will issue, let me give a little more description on middle knowledge and molinism.
Firstly, God's middle knowledge is the idea that God knows what any person would have done if they were in any situation. So, if I were born to Hitler's parents instead of Hitler, God would know exactly how that would have effected the rest of human history from that point on. As you can imagine, this would create an unimaginably complex web of what ifs for every single person and every possible situation. It's not infinite, but it might as well be from our perspective.
Now, imagine God knowing all of it. Every single possibility of what every person would freely do in every situation. He takes all of this and creates the best possible world. The world were every person is placed in the exact situation were their free choices lead to the best feasible conclusion.
Under this system God foreknew all things. In fact, he created the world so that everything will happen in the way that it happens, but he does it through the free choices of people.[/QUOTE]
But it's pretty easy to argue that our free choices are not leading to the best feasible conclusion. Joseph-esque instances of bad things being turned to good seem very much to be the exception rather than the rule to me.
How could hundreds of millions of people starving at this very moment be called the result of our free choices leading to the best feasible conclusion?
[QUOTE=sgman91;49647473]Since you guys are still talking about that free will issue, let me give a little more description on middle knowledge and molinism.
Firstly, God's middle knowledge is the idea that God knows what any person would have done if they were in any situation. So, if I were born to Hitler's parents instead of Hitler, God would know exactly how that would have effected the rest of human history from that point on. As you can imagine, this would create an unimaginably complex web of what ifs for every single person and every possible situation. It's not infinite, but it might as well be from our perspective.
Now, imagine God knowing all of it. Every single possibility of what every person would freely do in every situation. He takes all of this and creates the best possible world. The world were every person is placed in the exact situation were their free choices lead to the best feasible conclusion.
Under this system God foreknew all things. In fact, he created the world so that everything will happen in the way that it happens, but he does it through the free choices of people.[/QUOTE]
If this is the best possible world, that certainly says a lot about humans and their capacity to do evil.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49645996]I thought it was God that gave humans free will? He made us in His image, with the gifts of reason and free will that He too possesses?[/QUOTE]
Depending on your philosophical understanding of an innocent man living in paradise obeying all the rules, star trek in the 60s basically said if you are in that state, you aren't free, so in a way much like promethius giving us fire in Greek mythology, Satan giving us the temptation to eat the fruit freed us from the tyrany of having everything and nothing, cast out man had to make for himself but those things he made were his
The flip side is man had free will and by temptation we turned away from God, which is bad and is a recurring theme in Jewish and Christian lore. Personally I don't really like that utter devotion or death god of the Hebrew scriptures because it makes us all seem really really stupid
[QUOTE=Radio Flyer;49646627]I really hope they make a Sandman tv series to compliment this, heard rumors that Joseph Gordon Levit t wants to give it a whirl
[editline]1st February 2016[/editline]
[img]http://images.sequart.org/images/Sandman-23-page.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Preacher is coming out soon
[hd]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNgI2sRzr8I[/hd]
[url=http://www.ew.com/article/2016/01/08/preacher-amc]Expect it to be completely neutered and weak unlike its source material[/url], though. So... you've been warned.
[QUOTE=Goberfish;49647533]But it's pretty easy to argue that our free choices are not leading to the best feasible conclusion. Joseph-esque instances of bad things being turned to good seem very much to be the exception rather than the rule to me.
How could hundreds of millions of people starving at this very moment be called the result of our free choices leading to the best feasible conclusion?[/QUOTE]
Two things:
1) We don't know the conclusion yet. Remember that we're talking about eternity. Suffering in the moment can be horrifying. I would never deny that, but it may also be the case that having horrifying things leads to a better end state. To a much less degree we know this in our own lives. Going through hard times can lead to us being a better person in the end. Maybe it's the same for humanity as a whole.
2) You're treating this as a much simpler issue than it is. Even the smallest choice can have a massive branching effect on the future of the entire planet. We simply can't know these effects. It's really not helpful to simplify it down to a specific situation clearly being used for "short term" (I use quotes because 100 years is incredibly short when compared to eternity or even the entire history of humanity) good or evil.
[QUOTE]If this is the best possible world, that certainly says a lot about humans and their capacity to do evil.[/QUOTE]
Just in case you didn't know, by "world" I mean all of history from the moment of creation to the eternal future state. So there's no reason under this system that we would have the best world right now, just that the it's the best world in the end. There may very well be a world with much less physical suffering, but in that world a leader rises up and oppresses the entire world for decades. It's really impossible to know.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49647679]In the "eternity" of our universe, our sun eats us or the universe has a heat-death thing. We all die in the end![/QUOTE]
You can't suffer when you're dead, so yeah guess god has it all sorted out
oh I didn't know this was a show for kids
[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;49645156][b]One Million Moms Calls for Boycott of Fox’s ‘Lucifer’[/b]
Via [url=http://boundingintocomics.com/2016/01/27/one-million-moms-calls-for-boycotts-of-foxs-lucifer/]Bounding Into Comics[/url]
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[quote]
The call to action dubs Lucifer as “spiritually dangerous” because it “glorifies Satan as a caring, likable person in human flesh.” It goes on to claim that the message of the show is “Lucifer is misunderstood. He doesn’t want to be a bad guy, it’s God who is forcing him to play that role.”[/quote]
Entitled soccer moms as usual, trying to ruin it for everyone else.[/QUOTE]
But Lucifer and Satan are different entities?
[QUOTE=maxumym;49647758]But Lucifer and Satan are different entities?[/QUOTE]
Lucifer and Satan are two different existences of the same entity. Lucifer being a perfect angel created by God before being banished from heaven, and Satan being Lucifer's new identity symbolizing all evil after having been banished.
Lucifer as an angel sounded like a p cool dude, tbh. As the king of all evil, not so much, although I suppose being banished to an existence of eternal torment for telling God to fuck off would make anyone bitter.
[QUOTE=Smug Bastard;49647800]Lucifer and Satan are two different existences of the same entity. Lucifer being a perfect angel created by God before being banished from heaven, and Satan being Lucifer's new identity symbolizing all evil after having been banished.
Lucifer as an angel sounded like a p cool dude, tbh.[/QUOTE]
I learned something today.
[QUOTE=Karmah;49646752]Streisand effect, I now know of the show and I'm sure more people do as well.[/QUOTE]
Yeah this will just result in higher awareness and more viewers.
Don't worry, it's Fox, they'll cancel it by season 2 anyway.
Aw damn, I had a show idea kinda similar to this one.
[QUOTE=Im Crimson;49648040]Don't worry, it's Fox, they'll cancel it by season 2 anyway.[/QUOTE]
:godzing:
[QUOTE=Squidman;49647546]If this is the best possible world, that certainly says a lot about humans and their capacity to do evil.[/QUOTE]
Which would say quite a bit about god, and it's capacity to do evil.
[QUOTE=sgman91;49647620]Two things:
1) We don't know the conclusion yet. Remember that we're talking about eternity. Suffering in the moment can be horrifying. I would never deny that, but it may also be the case that having horrifying things leads to a better end state. To a much less degree we know this in our own lives. Going through hard times can lead to us being a better person in the end. Maybe it's the same for humanity as a whole.
2) You're treating this as a much simpler issue than it is. Even the smallest choice can have a massive branching effect on the future of the entire planet. We simply can't know these effects. It's really not helpful to simplify it down to a specific situation clearly being used for "short term" (I use quotes because 100 years is incredibly short when compared to eternity or even the entire history of humanity) good or evil.
Just in case you didn't know, by "world" I mean all of history from the moment of creation to the eternal future state. So there's no reason under this system that we would have the best world right now, just that the it's the best world in the end. There may very well be a world with much less physical suffering, but in that world a leader rises up and oppresses the entire world for decades. It's really impossible to know.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but if god couldn't find a better, less painful way to get to this theoretical eventual endpoint, then he can't exactly be all-mighty, now can he?
Tell that shit to John Milton millions of moms
[QUOTE=maxumym;49647852]I learned something today.[/QUOTE]
How about this then: the name Lucifer was never identified with Satan until the Latin translation of the Book Isaiah in the Christian era. A specific passage in the book refers to the defeat of a King of Babylon, who is named as Helel ("shining one"), a name that refers to the Morning Star or Day Star (the planet Venus), which subsequently became translated as Lucifer. In the Book of Peter, the name also referred to the Morning Star in general, but with no relation to the Devil. Jesus himself is sometimes called the Morning Star, but not "Lucifer", even in Latin. His angel name is Helel and he was the strongest Seraph, the highest ranked angel serving God prior his fall from grace.
I don't see him as inherently evil, but rather, a figure that tempts and tests people.
I didn't even really think Lucifer/Satan/whatever was an asshole or whatever in Paradise Lost. He simply wanted to be free. He didn't hate God or anything like that (at first), and serving God wasn't a bad deal, but it was the principle of the matter he had an issue with. No different from slaves with "good" owners still wanting freedom despite being treated well. He planted the seed of true freedom into the heads of other angels, it took roots in the ones who rallied with him.
Hence the line where he says it's better to rule (over oneself) in hell than to be a servant in heaven.
Instead of just letting him and his brethren have their freedom, God sent them to the shithole that is hell. That's where the anger came from, imagine being a slave with a master who treats you well, but you ultimately want your freedom. He awards it to you by dropping you off in the Sahara desert and says, "lmao this is what you asked for," and fucks off. You'd be pretty pissed.
After many failed retaliations, he sees his opportunity in humans. While the story puts emphasis on the apple giving humans the knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil, etc. I don't think the apple is when humans fell. Humans were doomed to fall the second Satan planted his idea of freedom into their heads. The idea that you don't always have to do what you're told to do with no questions asked.
God gave humans free will, but Satan gave humans freedom, at least that's my interpretation of the story.
I'm not religious though so I could be miles off. Paradise Lost was an excellent book.
Wouldn't have known about the show if it weren't for them. Thanks OMM!
I watched the first episode when it premiered and while it's nothing amazing or personal schedule changing, I recommend everyone give it a watch.
[QUOTE=elowin;49648710]Yeah, but if god couldn't find a better, less painful way to get to this theoretical eventual endpoint, then he can't exactly be all-mighty, now can he?[/QUOTE]
Being omnipotent doesn't mean you can do the logically impossible. He can't make a circle square, for example.
So the best feasible world is the best world that can actually exist. You're welcome to try and prove that there's a better, less painful way, but you're on a fools task because it's impossible. The variables are essentially infinite.
[editline]1st February 2016[/editline]
Also, why do you guys keep talking about Paradise Lost as if it's religious cannon? There's a ton in there that isn't anywhere in the actual Bible and doesn't really represent the Biblical image of Satan.
[QUOTE=sgman91;49650572]Being omnipotent doesn't mean you can do the logically impossible. He can't make a circle square, for example.
So the best feasible world is the best world that can actually exist. You're welcome to try and prove that there's a better, less painful way, but you're on a fools task because it's impossible. The variables are essentially infinite.
[editline]1st February 2016[/editline]
Also, why do you guys keep talking about Paradise Lost as if it's religious cannon? There's a ton in there that isn't anywhere in the actual Bible and doesn't really represent the Biblical image of Satan.[/QUOTE]
Even if it's the most optimal way, I can't imagine it being comforting for everyone out there suffering. Oh yeah man, you spent your time alive starving to death and watching your family die of disease while others enjoyed luxury, hope you understand man you just drew the short straw. Especially when you consider the endpoint for our souls or whatever is the same. Someone who lives a life of virtue but also extremely luxurious gets to go to the same heaven someone who lived a life of virtue but suffered incessantly gets to go to.
If a god does not have the power to change the laws of the universe itself (making a circle square, for example) then there is, at some level, a limit to his power. And if his power is not truly infinite, it raises the question, maybe there's someone (or something) out there who can do it better. In a way that doesn't involve giving billions of souls the short end of the stick for no reason other than someone had to do it.
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;49650876]Even if it's the most optimal way, I can't imagine it being comforting for everyone out there suffering. Oh yeah man, you spent your time alive starving to death and watching your family die of disease while others enjoyed luxury, hope you understand man you just drew the short straw. Especially when you consider the endpoint for our souls or whatever is the same. Someone who lives a life of virtue but also extremely luxurious gets to go to the same heaven someone who lived a life of virtue but suffered incessantly gets to go to.[/QUOTE]
The Bible is clear that while people do go to the same Heaven, some have more rewards than others. It's also clear that those who work to store up treasures for themselves on earth won't be getting the rewards in Heaven. You can say that it's not comforting, but I've met many a person in great physical or emotional pain comforted by the thought that their entire existence isn't defined by that pain. The parable of the workers comes to mind:
There are some workers in the town square waiting to get hired during harvest season. So a vineyard owner comes in and hires one in the morning, he goes back a little later and hires another one, and he goes back to hire another one even later. He continues to do this until there's only one hour left of work and he hires the last person. At the end of the day he pays all of them the same exact amount, even though some had worked all day and others had only worked for a single hour. The man who worked all day complains about how unfair it was, but the owner basically responds by saying that the man got what he agreed to be paid and that the owner's generosity to others doesn't change that in any way. So why is he angry? He wasn't hurt by the other person being paid the same amount. He still received all that he expected.
It's interesting how we are happy with what we get until we see another person get more (or the same for less work) even though it has zero effect on us.
[QUOTE]If a god does not have the power to change the laws of the universe itself (making a circle square, for example) then there is, at some level, a limit to his power. And if his power is not truly infinite, it raises the question, maybe there's someone (or something) out there who can do it better. In a way that doesn't involve giving billions of souls the short end of the stick for no reason other than someone had to do it.[/QUOTE]
You're confusing the "laws of the universe" like gravity with the laws of logic, itself. The problem with making a square circle is that it doesn't exist. It's just words put together that make nonsense. To say that God can't make something that is literally non sense isn't a limit to his power. Being able to put a string of words together doesn't make that string of words meaningful in any way.
Watched the first episode and this show is going to be great! Thanks for the PR stunt soccer moms!
Afaik Lucifer isn't even an actual entity in Christianity, the same way Satan isn't the devil, or the serpent.
[QUOTE=Shadowfirelan;49652148]Afaik Lucifer isn't even an actual entity in Christianity, the same way Satan isn't the devil, or the serpent.[/QUOTE]
satan was personified durring the middle ages, the scriptures only use the word satan, but its translation usually means something like "the temptation, or the other" meaning if taken litterally its not one being, but the other option
[QUOTE=sgman91;49651697]
You're confusing the "laws of the universe" like gravity with the laws of logic, itself. The problem with making a square circle is that it doesn't exist. It's just words put together that make nonsense. To say that God can't make something that is literally non sense isn't a limit to his power. Being able to put a string of words together doesn't make that string of words meaningful in any way.[/QUOTE]
But isn't that what god and the "plan" is all about? Something beyond our comprehension, beyond logic, infinitely complex on a level we could never understand? To us, making a circle square makes zero logical sense and would be impossible, but surely a being who has the ability to create an entire universe and the laws defining it would also be able to do what we deem impossible. Technically, nothing would be impossible for an infinitely powerful being. Infinite power means he can literally do [i]anything[/i], the second you say there's something he can't do (like snap his fingers and have all humans happy living in a paradise) then his power is no longer infinite. He is bound in some way to something else, to laws or constraints beyond his control, implying something could technically exist even beyond god himself. Something had to create the rules binding his power.
[QUOTE=Shadowfirelan;49652148]Afaik Lucifer isn't even an actual entity in Christianity, the same way Satan isn't the devil, or the serpent.[/QUOTE]
iirc the name Lucifer is a misreading of sorts, the passage was actually talking about the planet Venus (was considered the "morning star" in history; Lucifer means "bringer of dawn"). It was misunderstood as referring to Satan as a fallen star/angel, and the name stuck.
The Devil started as a Medieval tradition of a mischievous but mostly harmless demon, which got exaggerated and mixed up with Satan as occult practices and beliefs became less accepted.
Also I'm fairly certain the Bible never indicates that the serpent is Satan, it's just the serpent. Not that there isn't a connection between them though, they both represent temptation.
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