Netanyahu is coming to speak to Congress without Obama's approval
96 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Saigon;47109508]Hamas using schools like these as shelters. If Israeli intelligence believes a school or hospital is being used as a staging ground to launch rockets into Israel, then they will authorize an airstrike.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Saigon;47109417]Israel doesn't target hospitals, schools, homes, etc.[/QUOTE]
Kind of a contradiction there.
[QUOTE=Saigon;47109508]Hamas has a virtual monopoly over everything in Gaza, they control the government, the education system, the police and the media. People in Gaza are taught from early on that Israel and the West are their "enemies."[/QUOTE]
Well to be honest, when your countrys getting destroyed and a major power still backs/defends the side thats doing this, and doesn't do much to intervene other than just asking them to politely stop, would you be surprised they think the west is evil? Also doesn't help much that they can't live much of a normal life, as they are basically in a cage in Gaza. Which groups like Hamas can use to garner support easily.
[QUOTE=Saigon;47109573]Hamas and Islamists absolutely are to blame for violence in Palestine. Palestinians would have had their own state in 1948, had they not attacked Israel. You can complain all you'd like about "stolen land," but unless you want to eliminate all of the Europeans in the Americas, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, etc., then it's a moot point.
Jews had lived peacefully under Ottoman rule for decades. In the 19th century, many Jews fled to the Ottoman Empire (especially modern day Israel, Jordan, Syria and Yemen) to escape persecution. This immigration was legal under Ottoman law.
After World War I, modern day Israel/Palestine was turned into a League of Nations mandate, administered by the British. By this point Jews had already made up a majority in many areas of modern day Israel and comprised a significant minority in areas that they weren't a majority.
As the Nazis came to power in Germany, even more Jews immigrated to British Mandatory Palestine. This new wave of immigration concerned the British, so they banned Jews from entering the country. Needless to say, many Jews fled to British Mandatory Palestine to escape Nazi persecution anyway. After the war, Britain found itself in a conundrum, as both Muslims and Jews in Mandatory Palestine wanted their own countries.
There was some violence against British colonial authorities, as well as between the Muslim and Jewish communities. As a result, the United Nations decided to partition their mandate into two countries; a secular state composed primarily of Jews and an Islamic state composed primarily of Muslims.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the history lessons but you missed a few things:
-Jews were never more than 30% of the population until the establishment of Israel
-The Jewish immigration waves were small at first and only became notable when sanctioned by European powers and fleeing the Nazis
-Jews who migrated to Palestine bought land from Ottomans living outside of Palestine. Jews quickly came to own large amounts of land that Palestinians lived on and worked on. Jews bought their way into an upper class in Palestine and exported to Europe, causing a net loss for the Palestinians who were now working for Jewish immigrants.
-Early Israel was subject to clearing out Palestinian communities (read: all of Palestine and present day Israel) through paramilitary gangs like the Stern Gang and Irgun.
-The Palestinians attacked Israel because their fucking land was just taken away from them.
Also, unlike colonialism, the establishment of Israel is in living memory for some people. It's still new enough that its justification can be argued and its effects undone. So, I'd like to argue that point.
Palestinians have a right to the land and by your metric they have every right to take it by force.
[QUOTE=oceansbloo;47109628]Kinda of a contradiction there.[/quote]
They're not targeting schools or hospitals, they're targeting Hamas. It's not like they're destroying hospitals for fun.
[QUOTE=oceansbloo;47109628]Well to be honest, when your countrys getting destroyed and a major power still backs/defends the side thats doing this, would you be surprised they think the west is evil? Also doesn't help much that they can't live much of a normal life, as they are basically in a cage in Gaza. Which groups like Hamas can use to garner support easily.[/QUOTE]
Except the only reason their country is being destroyed, is because the group they are supporting is waging war against Israel. Israel isn't bombing Gaza to "oppress the population," it's a reaction to violence against Israel. Israel tried pulling out of Gaza, but we saw how well that worked out. If Hamas lays down their weapons, there will be peace. If Israel lays down their weapons, there will be genocide.
[QUOTE=Saigon;47109608]Do you think white/black/Asian/Hispanic Americans should move to Europe/Africa/Asia/etc and return the land to the Native American tribes?
Should non-aboriginal Australians move back to Europe and return the land to the aboriginal tribes?
Should Germans in Saarland move back to Germany and return the land to the French?
Should Japanese living in Okinawa move back to Japan and return the land to the Ryukyuans?[/QUOTE]
Events that happened hundreds of years ago:
The above
Events that happened 80 years ago:
Israeli establishment
Things that we all recognize as being bad but can't reasonably undo:
The above
Things you aren't recognizing as being bad but was:
Israeli estalishment
[QUOTE=Saigon;47109608]Do you think white/black/Asian/Hispanic Americans should move to Europe/Africa/Asia/etc and return the land to the Native American tribes?
Should non-aboriginal Australians move back to Europe and return the land to the aboriginal tribes?
Should Germans in Saarland move back to Germany and return the land to the French?
Should Japanese living in Okinawa move back to Japan and return the land to the Ryukyuans?[/QUOTE]
No (Reasonable) person wants to force the Israelis out of Israel, it may have been a mistake to give them the land in the first place, but it was a mistake we westerners made ourselves, and we have to own up to it. However, this doesn't mean it's okay to proceed to systematically remove the natives of that land decades later after the initial displacement. Your argument would work if the US was systematically removing people with native blood in them to this day, or if Australia was forcibly removing the aboriginals from the continent.
[QUOTE=Saigon;47109427]I don't understand how it is wrong. I'm not crazy or a sociopath, I just don't see how it is wrong. If these people are anti-Western and are fundamentally opposed to everything we stand for, then how is it wrong? Where do you draw the line? Are airstrikes against ISIS wrong? Was defeating Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan wrong?[/QUOTE]
"These people don't share my views, their deaths aren't wrong, i'm not sociopathic for that"
yes, yes you really, really are.
He knows that presidents are temporary. Those fossils in Congress are forever.
[QUOTE=Saigon;47109608]Do you think white/black/Asian/Hispanic Americans should move to Europe/Africa/Asia/etc and return the land to the Native American tribes?
Should non-aboriginal Australians move back to Europe and return the land to the aboriginal tribes?
Should Germans in Saarland move back to Germany and return the land to the French?
Should Japanese living in Okinawa move back to Japan and return the land to the Ryukyuans?[/QUOTE]
You do know that Germans aren't "occupying" (or whatever) Saarland, right?
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];47109648']Thanks for the history lessons but you missed a few things:
-Jews were never more than 30% of the population until the establishment of Israel
-The Jewish immigration waves were small at first and only became notable when sanctioned by European powers and fleeing the Nazis
-Jews who migrated to Palestine bought land from Ottomans living outside of Palestine. Jews quickly came to own large amounts of land that Palestinians lived on and worked on. Jews bought their way into an upper class in Palestine and exported to Europe, causing a net loss for the Palestinians who were now working for Jewish immigrants.
-Early Israel was subject to clearing out Palestinian communities (read: all of Palestine and present day Israel) through paramilitary gangs like the Stern Gang and Irgun.
-The Palestinians attacked Israel because their fucking land was just taken away from them.
Also, unlike colonialism, the establishment of Israel is in living memory for some people. It's still new enough that its justification can be argued and its effects undone. So, I'd like to argue that point.
Palestinians have a right to the land and by your metric they have every right to take it by force.[/QUOTE]
1st Point: I never said that they were an outright majority. I said that they were a majority in many areas, which is absolutely true. There were many majority Jewish communities in Ottoman Palestine.
2nd Point: I mentioned that they picked up when the Nazis came to power in that post. Also, how is fleeing Nazi persecution a bad thing?
3rd Point: That's only partially true. The Jews certainly did bring their wealth with them to Palestine and create jobs for the Palestinians, but how exactly is that a bad thing? They immigrated their legally, bought the land legally and employed the natives legally.
4th Point: They were defending themselves against violent Palestinians. I'm not saying they were 100% justified all of the time, but the primary roles of the paramilitary forces were twofold. The first was to protect the Jewish communities from attack. The second was to lay down a framework for the creation of a national military (for their upcoming nation-state).
5th Point: Nobody stole anybody's land, they acquired the land legally and were a majority in many areas of the country. Also, the Jewish community had no say whatsoever in the United Nations Resolution that created both the Israeli and Palestinian states. The Jews didn't even get to vote on whether or not they would become a state.
Israel has existed since 1948, virtually everyone who was alive then has died or is on their death bed. Israel isn't a colonial state in the traditional sense, they're legal immigrants who declared their independence. Also, there are plenty of examples of legitimate colonialism from that same time period and later. Much of mainland Europe underwent ethnic cleansing in the 20th century, both before and after World War II.
[QUOTE=Saigon;47109659]They're not targeting schools or hospitals, they're targeting Hamas. It's not like they're destroying hospitals for fun.[/QUOTE]
Really? Hard to tell sometimes. But aren't hospitals at least, not to be targeted unless they have been used to fire against the other side? As not sure all hospitals bombed last year were used to fire back on Israel.
[QUOTE=Saigon;47109659]Except the only reason their country is being destroyed, is because the group they are supporting is waging war against Israel. Israel isn't bombing Gaza to "oppress the population," it's a reaction to violence against Israel.[/QUOTE]
But yet the majority getting killed didn't even care for this conflict, didn't support a side, just wanted to live. And their deaths now just cause more reason to back hamas or other groups. I wouldn't be surprised if this was the aim of some, to try to cast all Palestinians in a bad light.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];47109663']Events that happened hundreds of years ago:
The above
Events that happened 80 years ago:
Israeli establishment
Things that we all recognize as being bad but can't reasonably undo:
The above
Things you aren't recognizing as being bad but was:
Israeli estalishment[/QUOTE]
You think that forcing over eight million people to relocate over something that happened 80 years ago is reasonable? Yet you claim that you have the moral high ground?
[QUOTE=Saigon;47109749]You think that forcing over eight million people to relocate over something that happened 80 years ago is reasonable? Yet you claim that you have the moral high ground?[/QUOTE]
The irony's so thick that it's like wading through hardening concrete.
[QUOTE=oceansbloo;47109748]Really? Hard to tell sometimes. But aren't hospitals at least, not to be targeted unless they have been used to fire against the other side? As not sure all hospitals bombed last year were used to fire back on Israel.[/quote]
That's why hospitals are being bombed, because Hamas is using them as staging grounds to attack Israel.
[QUOTE=oceansbloo;47109748][QUOTE=Saigon;47109659]Except the only reason their country is being destroyed, is because the group they are supporting is waging war against Israel. Israel isn't bombing Gaza to "oppress the population," it's a reaction to violence against Israel. [/quote]
But yet the majority getting killed didn't even care for this conflict, and their deaths now just cause more reason to back hamas or other groups. I wouldn't be surprised if this was the aim of some, to try to cast all Palestinians in a bad light.[/QUOTE]
Israel tries to minimize civilian casualties, but the Gaza Strip has a population density of over 5000 people per square mile. Obviously a lot of innocent people are going to be killed, it's an unfortunate side-effect of warfare. It is not uncommon for there to be more civilian casualties than combatant casualties in a guerrilla war.
[QUOTE=Saigon;47109749]You think that forcing over eight million people to relocate over something that happened 80 years ago is reasonable? Yet you claim that you have the moral high ground?[/QUOTE]
if you had to identify with a republican or democrat which would you identify with
[QUOTE=archangel125;47109797]The irony's so thick that it's like wading through hardening concrete.[/QUOTE]
He heavily implied that there wouldn't be anything wrong with "undoing" the establishment of Israel.
[QUOTE=Kite_shugo;47109805]if you had to identify with a republican or democrat which would you identify with[/QUOTE]
Like you even need to ask lmfao
[QUOTE=Kite_shugo;47109805]if you had to identify with a republican or democrat which would you identify with[/QUOTE]
Neither, I'm a moderate.
[QUOTE=Saigon;47109823]Neither, I'm a moderate.[/QUOTE]
If you're a moderate than the GOP is left
[QUOTE=Saigon;47109740]1st Point: I never said that they were an outright majority. I said that they were a majority in many areas, which is absolutely true. There were many majority Jewish communities in Ottoman Palestine.
2nd Point: I mentioned that they picked up when the Nazis came to power in that post. Also, how is fleeing Nazi persecution a bad thing?
3rd Point: That's only partially true. The Jews certainly did bring their wealth with them to Palestine and create jobs for the Palestinians, but how exactly is that a bad thing? They immigrated their[B] legally[/B], bought the land [B]legally[/B] and employed the natives[B] legally[/B].
4th Point: They were defending themselves against violent Palestinians. I'm not saying they were 100% justified all of the time, but the primary roles of the paramilitary forces were twofold. The first was to protect the Jewish communities from attack. The second was to lay down a framework for the creation of a national military (for their upcoming nation-state).
5th Point: Nobody stole anybody's land, they acquired the land[B] legally[/B] and were a majority in many areas of the country. Also, the Jewish community had no say whatsoever in the United Nations Resolution that created both the Israeli and Palestinian states. The Jews didn't even get to vote on whether or not they would become a state.
Israel has existed since 1948, virtually everyone who was alive then has died or is on their death bed. Israel isn't a colonial state in the traditional sense^, they're [B]legal[/B]* immigrants who declared their independence. Also, there are plenty of examples of legitimate colonialism from that same time period and later. Much of mainland Europe underwent ethnic cleansing in the 20th century, both before and after World War II**.[/QUOTE]
^Israel is a product of European colonialism. Before Palestine, potential homelands for the Jews included Uganda/Kenya and Madagascar, which clearly shows the imperialist theme: Zionists had no problem settling land with complete disregard for the local populace, to control the land and establish a Jewish "homeland" on "uncivilized" land.
*Britain prevented immigration to Palestine by Jews in 1939. There were many illegal immigrants to Israel.
** Guess how many of those colonial land grabs and ethnic cleansings are considered immoral and bad and regrettable? All of them except Israel.
Law don't mean jack shit morally.
The land was partitioned without consent of the native peoples for the benefit of an outside people. A disproportionate amount, including the best land, was given to the Jews. The Jews were given special privileges under the British, and a government was established by the Jews and was protected by the Brits. Following the establishment of the WZO every partition plan included more land for the Jews. The Arabs got fucked by Britain after WWI and the Palestinians got fucked even more after WWII.
also as far as the paramilitaries you can't argue to me that the fucking Lehi, whose existence was based off of the concept of ignoring the WZO and rebelling against Britain because they were fed up with not hazing a Jewish state and bombing buses and massacreing Palestinian villages was ever justified. Nor were the Irgun, whose fucking symbol is a rifle overlayed with the entirety of Transjordan, and were clearly an offensive irredentist org.
[editline]9th February 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Saigon;47109823]Neither, I'm a moderate.[/QUOTE]
that's not what moderate means
[QUOTE=Saigon;47109816]He heavily implied that there wouldn't be anything wrong with "undoing" the establishment of Israel.[/QUOTE]
And you heavily implied there wouldn't be anything wrong with ethnic cleansing based on political affiliation.
Do you have a point or are you going to continue making a fool of yourself?
[QUOTE=Saigon;47109816]He heavily implied that there wouldn't be anything wrong with "undoing" the establishment of Israel.[/QUOTE]
In all fairness I do believe that things are too far down the line to disestablish Israel. But that doesn't mean that Israel is justified, and in my opinion they aren't/ Anything they do that harms the Palestinian people or disadvantages them is a further assault that stems from that failure of a justification and is wrong, though. So I think whatever you're arguing for is full of shit, and if Israel is getting fucked up by Hamas, well they brought that shit on themselves. Cut their losses, declare a two-state solution, cede some land, and call it a fucking day already.
[QUOTE=LoganIsAwesome;47109825]If you're a moderate than the GOP is left[/QUOTE]
In what way? I'm pretty smack-dab in the middle and hold views that most rational people would agree with.
I have a lot of liberal view, such as supporting lgbt rights, abortion rights, universal healthcare, improving infrastructure, protecting the environment, legalizing drugs, reforming the prison system and that capitalism does need some regulations.
I also have a lot of conservative views, such as protecting gun ownership rights, protecting our allies (including Israel), protecting the rights of cigar smokers and a belief that free market capitalism is the best system for creating opportunities for people to succeed and fulfill their dreams.
[QUOTE=Saigon;47109870]In what way? I'm pretty smack-dab in the middle and hold views that most rational people would agree with.
I have a lot of liberal view, such as supporting lgbt rights, abortion rights, universal healthcare, improving infrastructure, protecting the environment, legalizing drugs, reforming the prison system and that capitalism does need some regulations.
I also have a lot of conservative views, such as protecting gun ownership rights, protecting our allies (including Israel), protecting the rights of cigar smokers and a belief that free market capitalism is the best system for creating opportunities for people to succeed and fulfill their dreams.[/QUOTE]
So you're a populist.
What do you think of a two-state solution?
[QUOTE=archangel125;47109840]And you heavily implied there wouldn't be anything wrong with ethnic cleansing based on political affiliation.
Do you have a point or are you going to continue making a fool of yourself?[/QUOTE]
What do you think the entire world is doing right now against ISIS and al-Qaeda? What do you think the Allies did against fascism? What do you think of European countries that continue to cleanse people for their political views (mostly fascists and communists)?
[QUOTE=Saigon;47109904]What do you think the entire world is doing right now against ISIS and al-Qaeda? What do you think the Allies did against fascism? What do you think of European countries that continue to cleanse people for their political views (mostly fascists and communists)?[/QUOTE]
Except that, unlike the Nazis or ISIS, Hamas and the Palestinians aren't committing genocide, ethnic cleansing, taking land as war spoils, invading other peoples, or mass mobilizing.
Know who is though? I'll give you a clue, starts with an I and S and isn't the Islamic State.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];47109902']So you're a populist.
What do you think of a two-state solution?[/QUOTE]
I think a two-state solution would be ideal. With that being said, I think that there can only be a two-state solution if Hamas recognizes Israel's right to exist and ceases violence against Israel.
Most Israelis hold the same view: [url]http://www.gallup.com/poll/161456/israelis-palestinians-pro-peace-process-not-hopeful.aspx[/url]
[QUOTE=Saigon;47109186]What do you propose, given that Palestinians have proven themselves to be barbaric savages who are stuck in the 14th century? These people are too uneducated and too indoctrinated to be integrated into society. Any attempt to develop or civilize them results in them blowing up schools and hospitals.
I wouldn't propose an ethnic cleansing though, as there are some pro-Western Palestinians and they should be allowed to exist. I would instead propose cleansing the barbaric and anti-Western elements of Gaza (and possibly the West Bank), which just happens to be a large portion of the population.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Racism" - OvB))[/highlight][/QUOTE]
You're a massive cunt.
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[QUOTE=archangel125;47109461]a[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Fangz;47109523]a[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=LoganIsAwesome;47109587]a[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];47109663']a[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47109670]a[/QUOTE]
[img]http://i.cubeupload.com/1Ubp3M.png[/img]
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Why reply?" - OvB))[/highlight]
Let's get back on topic.
[QUOTE=Srillo;47108813]The Democrats need to either publicly boycott this, or walkout - this sort of thing is disturbing and shouldn't be tolerated. And Ron Dermer should be labeled persona non grata.[/QUOTE]
Both should be done: public boycott and a walkout. Shady stuff.
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