‘Men’s rights’ group defends posters claiming women lie about rape
670 replies, posted
I'm confused, is misogyny defined as thinking badly about women or women being treated worse in society?
Let me clarify my question: Let us say women are paid less because they are expected to take care of children because they are assumed to be better at it. This is a positive assumption about women, but it leads to negatives in the workplace. Is this misogyny? (Note, I'm using this as an example, not an argument. My previous posts still apply).
If so, than men having negative consequences because of positive traits should also be thought of in the same way.
[QUOTE=Cone;41432249]fyi the draft pretty much isn't a thing in most Western countries, and when it is it's pretty much male-exclusive because women are too obsessed with makeup to kill a man, not because women are delicate flowers in need of protection
this is a problem because men are supposed to be strong, independent stoic types who don't let that get to them, and women are supposed to be the opposite. it's entirely due to gender roles that this issue exists, not because the feminazis are taking away your rights or whatever.
as far as i know this is true, but i'm not too educated on this subject so someone else might want to look into it.
again i think this might be true, but i'm still not too educated here.
this is actually true, however it's hardly like feminism is responsible for this. the American justice system as a whole is a complete shambles - i would more than happily vote for reforms on this issue.
once again i don't know much about childcare so i'll leave this to someone else
could this not be explained by the aforementioned fact that men are expected to be far more strong and independent than women? these kinds of gender roles are something feminism seeks to remedy, not strengthen.
statistics please. i don't necessarily doubt this but i'd still like to see them
again, those same gender roles sprout up. you're a man, you're expected by other men to be able to take it. that's their fault, not the feminazis or whatever.
[URL="http://www.infoplease.com/spot/womenceo1.html"]female executives and business owners are extremely rare[/URL], something not shared by their male counterparts. the extra money is simply another form of affirmative action, one meant to encourage the equality you seem to love so much.
well that would obviously depend on the circumstances of the fight. if some woman just randomly hits you as you're walking down the street for no apparent reason then of course that's out of line.
same gender roles. you're the breadwinner because that's what a man is meant to be, if you aren't you're viewed as a failure by other men.
i once again differ to more educated people on this subject[/QUOTE]
It isn't men that make up these roles, it's society in general; most men and women follow these values, but when a woman is expected to do something because she's a woman it's sexist, but when a man is expected to do something, if he doesn't, he's a failure.
and sources;
[url]http://deltabravo.net/cms/plugins/content/content.php?content.284[/url]
[url]http://goodmenproject.com/good-feed-blog/why-are-men-more-likely-to-be-homeless/[/url] (best source I could find for this, puts men at 75% of all homeless. Can't find my original source)
[QUOTE=katbug;41431681]I can't control if my child is being put up for adoption or not.[/QUOTE]
yes you can... if the mother doesn't want custody and you do, you'll get it unless there's something wrong with your parenting skills.
[QUOTE=sp00ks;41432494]yes you can... if the mother doesn't want custody and you do, you'll get it unless there's something wrong with your parenting skills.[/QUOTE]
I live in California. It is essentially impossible for me to have custody of a child on my own.
[QUOTE=sp00ks;41432494]yes you can... if the mother doesn't want custody and you do, you'll get it unless there's something wrong with your parenting skills.[/QUOTE]
Which is exactly what happens. By default, in the court system, if you're trying to get custody of your child from the mother it's assumed you're either a pedophile or incapable in some way. It's the same with child support, you're assumed to be a deadbeat and therefore forced into paying up.
[QUOTE=katbug;41432388]It isn't men that make up these roles, it's society in general; most men and women follow these values, but when a woman is expected to do something because she's a woman it's sexist, but when a man is expected to do something, if he doesn't, he's a failure.[/QUOTE]
again, gender roles as a whole are part of what the feminist movement intends to sort out. i hardly see how educating people further on how these roles function could be seen as a bad thing.
[QUOTE=katbug;41432535]I live in California. It is essentially impossible for me to have custody of a child on my own.[/QUOTE]
that's because most custody arrangements are joint, the whole point is what's best for the child ignoring everything else
when someone gets sole custody it's either because the other parent was grossly inept/abusive or disappeared
let's face it, after a divorce when one of the parents wants or can't have anything to do with the kid that parent is usually the father
maybe its [i]biotruths[/i] and the motherly instinct is stronger, maybe gender roles make men not want to be single parents, maybe it's a bit of both, who knows. What we [i]do[/i] know is that there aren't any legal barriers to single fatherhood and that most judges are male. It doesn't point to a systematic bias against fathers perpetrated by eeevil feeemales.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;41432589]that's because most custody arrangements are joint, the whole point is what's best for the child ignoring everything else
when someone gets sole custody it's either because the other parent was grossly inept/abusive or disappeared
let's face it, after a divorce when one of the parents wants or can't have anything to do with the kid that parent is usually the father
maybe its [i]biotruths[/i] and the motherly instinct is stronger, maybe gender roles make men not want to be single parents, maybe it's a bit of both, who knows. What we [i]do[/i] know is that there aren't any legal barriers to single fatherhood and that most judges are male. It doesn't point to a systematic bias against fathers perpetrated by eeevil feeemales.[/QUOTE]
I never said it was something orchestated by "eeevil females", I'm just stating the facts.
If I get divorced, unless I can clearly prove that my ex-wife is a psycho drug abuser, she's getting that kid.
[QUOTE=Cone;41432576]again, gender roles as a whole are part of what the feminist movement intends to sort out. i hardly see how educating people further on how these roles function could be seen as a bad thing.[/QUOTE]
Because feminists only promote women? The bare fact that "men's rights" is in quotes in the OP shows that men have really no voice. I've really never seen feminists do anything that promoted general equality, only quality of life for women. And CERTAINLY never helping anything that men struggle with.
Also, if you look earlier in this thread, people are claiming that men have no real social problems and that you can't discriminate against them.
[QUOTE=katbug;41432700]I never said it was something orchestated by "eeevil females", I'm just stating the facts.
If I get divorced, unless I can clearly prove that my ex-wife is a psycho drug abuser, she's getting that kid.[/quote]
No, the odds point to a joint custody arrangement if you're both fit parents. Because access to both parents [i]is in the best interest of the child.[/i]
Your kid isn't a battleground where you can spite your wife. It isn't a "mens right" to make children suffer. Suck it up.
[QUOTE=katbug;41432700]I never said it was something orchestated by "eeevil females", I'm just stating the facts.
If I get divorced, unless I can clearly prove that my ex-wife is a psycho drug abuser, she's getting that kid.
Because feminists only promote women? The bare fact that "men's rights" is in quotes in the OP shows that men have really no voice. I've really never seen feminists do anything that promoted general equality, only quality of life for women.
Also, if you look earlier in this thread, people are claiming that men have no real social problems and that you can't discriminate against them.[/QUOTE]
lol what made you think that feminism is explicitly centered on one gender. it isn't. 'men's rights' is just a bad fan fiction of feminism, stop parading it
[QUOTE=Ownederd;41432738]lol what made you think that feminism is explicitly centered on one gender. it isn't. 'men's rights' is just a bad fan fiction of feminism, stop parading it[/QUOTE]
well i mean it's called "feminism"
[QUOTE=katbug;41431681]
If a woman hits me, she is brave; If I hit a woman I am a coward and a sexual assailant[/QUOTE]
wtf that is called assault what does that have to do with the patriarchy or lack thereof?
I'm not going to read though 312 posts but you all know that the mras are doing it ironically right
[QUOTE=Zeke129;41432737]No, the odds point to a joint custody arrangement if you're both fit parents. Because access to both parents [i]is in the best interest of the child.[/i]
Your kid isn't a battleground where you can spite your wife. It isn't a "mens right" to make children suffer. Suck it up.[/QUOTE]
"suck it up"
aaand there it goes again. I don't have to fucking suck it up. You assumed that I want to keep custody of my kid because I hate my wife, again, an assumption. Fuck you for your assumptions. If I have a kid, I will love them with every fiber in my being, and if I divorce my wife for whatever reason, If I'm a more fit parent, I should damn well get to protect my child.
And once again, fuck you for thinking that because I'm a man I wouldn't be a good parent.
[QUOTE=katbug;41431681]I haven't said anything on that matter, all I have said so far is that a lot of the "persecution" that women face isn't real in the first world.
But now that you've mentioned the "nonexistent" men's persecution, I have some statistics and information;
Men are legally obligated to join the draft
Men only have two domestic violence shelters in the entirety of the US.
Prostate cancer has far less funding than breast cancer, even though rates are nearly identical
I can't control if my child is being put up for adoption or not.
It is nearly impossible for me to get custody of my child.
I get longer sentences for the same crime.
If I act compassionately towards a step child, I can become legally obligated to pay for aid.
80% of all youth suicides are from young men.
I am 10 times more likely to become homeless than a woman.
If I am raped by a woman, I will probably be told that I shouldn't whine about it/can't get raped, etc.
Female-owned business get free money form the government exclusively for being run by a woman.
If a woman hits me, she is brave; If I hit a woman I am a coward and a sexual assailant
I am expected to pay the bill for pretty much everything
Custodial mothers are 79.6% likely to get child support; only 30% of men get child support
and I can cite pretty much every one of these.
I think that due to how everything is set up, men and women are on fairly equal footing. I don't consider most of these to be "putting me down", it's just how things are.[/QUOTE]
suck it up
[editline]13th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=katbug;41432798]"suck it up"
aaand there it goes again. I don't have to fucking suck it up. You assumed that I want to keep custody of my kid because I hate my wife, again, an assumption. Fuck you for your assumptions. If I have a kid, I will love them with every fiber in my being, and if I divorce my wife for whatever reason, If I'm a more fit parent, I should damn well get to protect my child.
And once again, fuck you for thinking that because I'm a man I wouldn't be a good parent.[/QUOTE]
suck it up
[QUOTE=Ownederd;41432738]lol what made you think that feminism is explicitly centered on one gender. it isn't. 'men's rights' is just a bad fan fiction of feminism, stop parading it[/QUOTE]
Regail me of all the times feminist movements have done anything but promote women.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;41432737]No, the odds point to a joint custody arrangement if you're both fit parents. Because access to both parents [i]is in the best interest of the child.[/i]
[/QUOTE]
this is actually wrong, single-mother children usually do better than single-father or joinly raised children [I]if they're starting from the same footing[/I]
[QUOTE=katbug;41432810]Regail me of all the times feminist movements have done anything but promote women.[/QUOTE]
you're just grasping straws. any self-respecting progressive feminist understands and promotes gender equity.
[QUOTE=katbug;41432798]"suck it up"
aaand there it goes again. I don't have to fucking suck it up. You assumed that I want to keep custody of my kid because I hate my wife, again, an assumption. Fuck you for your assumptions. If I have a kid, I will love them with every fiber in my being, and if I divorce my wife for whatever reason, If I'm a more fit parent, I should damn well get to protect my child.
And once again, fuck you for thinking that because I'm a man I wouldn't be a good parent.[/QUOTE]
In this hypothetical, is your ex-wife unfit to be around the child at all? You're going off on all sorts of weird tangents. I'm saying that if you're both fit to be parents the child deserves to spend time with both of you.
You not liking your wife anymore isn't grounds to isolate your child from her as well, unless (as I said) she was abusive or neglectful. Doing so would be cruel to the child, you can't say "no you have no mother anymore" just because you don't like her.
So yes, suck it up.
You also don't seem to be aware of joint custody arrangements - those are where the child spends time living with both parents on an alternating schedule.
[QUOTE=katbug;41432810]Regail me of all the times feminist movements have done anything but promote women.[/QUOTE]
because I'm lazy: [url]http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080314090522AABnfIE[/url]
1. Men are no longer expected to be the main provider for their entire working lives. They don't have to be frightened that they and their family will starve if they're diabled, injured or sick.
2. They can choose to work in traditionally female jobs, as secretaries, nurses and homemakers, for example.
3. It's ok nowdays for men to talk about their feelings; obtain counselling support; admit that they're emotionally unwell when those things happen.
4. They can have sex without being expected to marry the woman; if both agree to that. They can choose to enter into a common law relationship and never get married; if that's in accord with their personal beliefs.
5. They can now disclose rape and abuse without being as pressured as they used to be, by the prevailing masculine culture, to remain silent or be accused of being weak, gay and so on.
6. They can spend more time with their children and be more involved in their daily care.
7. They can refuse to go to war and sok. Nobody expects them to defend and protect if they don't want to or they are just not cut out for that sort of role.
8. They can take better care of themselves - be gentler with themselves. There is less pressure to be macho; macho is not admired anymore.
9. They can charge an abusive partner with assault, stalking and any other behaviour that endangers them.
10. No fault divorce means that they don't have to have a reason to call it quits on an unhappy marriage. They don't have to have infidelity exposed to obtain a divorce.
11. They can know that when a woman is with them it's because she wants to be and because she values all that he is; not because she has no alternative way to survive.
[QUOTE=katbug;41432700]Because feminists only promote women? The bare fact that "men's rights" is in quotes in the OP shows that men have really no voice.
Also, if you look earlier in this thread, people are claiming that men have no real social problems and that you can't discriminate against them.[/QUOTE]
despite what you may have heard, feminism is basically egalitarianism, just with a pinch of affirmative action. feminism promotes women so everyone can be on equal ground, not because they don't feel men deserve equality or whatever.
in fact, pretty much the only reason any kind of disconnect exists between feminism and egalitarianism is because a couple legit misogynists wanted to disadvantage women whilst coming off as if they wanted a level playing field the whole time. there is no actual ideological conflict between the two concepts that means they can't be one and the same.
basically, feminists want the same things you do - it's just that they fly under a different banner, if you catch my drift. they're just egalitarians with a more roundabout way of fixing things, see?
[QUOTE=Eltro102;41432827]this is actually wrong, single-mother children usually do better than single-father or joinly raised children [I]if they're starting from the same footing[/I][/QUOTE]
63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (US Dept. Of Health/Census) – 5 times the average.
90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes – 32 times the average.
85% of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes – 20 times the average. (Center for Disease Control)
80% of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes –14 times the average. (Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26)
71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes – 9 times the average. (National Principals Association Report)
Katbug, the overwhelming majority of your complaints have to do with how gender roles favor masculinity. The nature of the patriarchy is that it disregards men who act feminine or who wish to take up feminine ideals. Every feminist in the fucking universe that isn't batshit insane (read: non-tumblr feminists) [b]know[/b] that the patriarchy is oppressive towards both genders. Theoretically, feminism and men's rights should be redundant. Feminism isn't founded on men's rights, but it IS founded on gender equality. Which includes giving men the ability to embrace femininity - and feminine duties - if they so desire.
Plus the "male-only draft" card is numbered, seeing how Western nations are slowly adopting combat roles for female soldiers. I'd say it won't be much longer until a gender-neutral draft is in place, but the draft has been defunct for 50 years now.
Also as a closing number,
[QUOTE=katbug;41431246]Cite the last example that you were put down for being a woman (not necessarily you, I don't know your gender, any women on here feel free to pitch in).[/QUOTE]
Here, let me make a list of all the different forms of misogyny that my friends and I have experienced in the past,
[*] A disgruntled hook-up buddy embarrasses a female friend of mine by asking "YO, I heard you fucked x?" to her new FWB. In essence, he's trying to belittle her by talking about their sexual conquests.
[*] I get my ass kissed by a student who thinks that my video project on the Bechdel Test is much more "understanding" than when women talk about feminism.
[*] I have to dish out $30 for Plan B for a Puerto Rican friend of mine, because her boyfriend thinks she's "hysterical" for fearing she's pregnant, and her parents would refuse to give her money because Puerto Rican girls aren't suppose to be sexually active. Meanwhile, her parents don't care that her older brothers are sexually active. It's only her that can't have sex, and they would refuse to support their own fucking daughter when she needs Plan B.
[*] A friend warns me that girls (not boys, but [b]only girls[/b]) get their drinks roofied at a specific frat house.
[*] A friend of mine fears revealing her gender on 4chan and other gaming sites, because she sees other posters called "cumsluts" and "attention whores" just for stating that they're women.
[*] Yet another friend of mine is told her video game tastes are "too childish" and that she's not a "real gamer" by an acquaintance. Plus, he continues to harass her by making rape jokes in front of her and saying that she should wear scampy costumes when an objectified woman pops up in a video game.
[*] An online friend of mine is repeatedly hit on and asked for nudes by a creepy 4channer.
[*] A writer for our college newspaper's op-ed writes a piece explaining how men are more oppressed than women, with bullshit claims like "men have to take the first step in courtship." The Opinions editor runs the piece.
[*] A friend's boyfriend watches another girl get her nipples pierced, and says he was there "only for support." Regardless of the fact that he obviously has a crush on the girl, and he is NOT in an open relationship. And his girlfriend has, of course, mentioned how uncomfortable this makes her feel.
[*] In a Creative Writing course, an older woman (around 40/50) stops a friend of mine during class and tells her that she's dressing too provocatively. She then proceeds to e-mail the wrong girl and tell her that she should not dress "like a sexpot" or "nymphomaniac" because sex-positive clothing is "regressive" from the women's liberation of the 60s and 70s.
[*] The same friend from #1 is forced to wear a hijab around the house, even though she is not Muslim. Obviously, her brothers don't have to hide their hair.
These are only a few where misogyny is evidently in place. This doesn't even count the numerous stories I can't bring up for my friends' privacy, or the stories that my friends have yet to even tell me. Or the daily comments and gazing that my friends receive that they simply try to push out of their minds.
[QUOTE=katbug;41432914]63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (US Dept. Of Health/Census) – 5 times the average.
90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes – 32 times the average.
85% of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes – 20 times the average. (Center for Disease Control)
80% of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes –14 times the average. (Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26)
71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes – 9 times the average. (National Principals Association Report)[/QUOTE]
What are the numbers for motherless homes
[QUOTE=Zeke129;41432855]In this hypothetical, is your ex-wife unfit to be around the child at all? You're going off on all sorts of weird tangents. I'm saying that if you're both fit to be parents the child deserves to spend time with both of you.
You not liking your wife anymore isn't grounds to isolate your child from her as well, unless (as I said) she was abusive or neglectful. Doing so would be cruel to the child, you can't say "no you have no mother anymore" just because you don't like her.
So yes, suck it up.
You also don't seem to be aware of joint custody arrangements - those are where the child spends time living with both parents on an alternating schedule.[/QUOTE]
I am perfectly aware of joint custody.
In the event of me divorcing my wife, if I had a child, the only reason for us to split would be them being a danger to the child. You automatically assumed I would be using the child as ammunition. You automatically assumed I would be a bad father.
[QUOTE=katbug;41432941]I am perfectly aware of joint custody.
In the event of me divorcing my wife, if I had a child, the only reason for us to split would be them being a danger to the child. You automatically assumed I would be using the child as ammunition. You automatically assumed I would be a bad father.[/QUOTE]
I didn't make any such assumptions, you're just reading everything through MRA victimhood goggles
But from the information you posted you sounded like a vindictive and shitty father, yes.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;41432952]I didn't make any such assumptions, you're just reading everything through MRA victimhood goggles
But from the information you posted you sounded like a vindictive and shitty father, yes.[/QUOTE]
I said I wouldn't divorce unless my wife was a danger to the kid for the sake of the family, and in this event I would want to have custody of my kids because I wouldn't want them with said dangerous person? How is this vindictive.
[QUOTE=katbug;41432914]63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (US Dept. Of Health/Census) – 5 times the average.
90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes – 32 times the average.
85% of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes – 20 times the average. (Center for Disease Control)
80% of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes –14 times the average. (Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26)
71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes – 9 times the average. (National Principals Association Report)[/QUOTE]
Sociologically, these all have to do with the high value that masculinity receives in the household.
Also, it's not enough to simply look at this problem based on gender. You also have to look at location, race, financial stability, etc. 90% of all homeless and runaway children might be from fatherless homes, but 60% of those might be inner-city.
These are loaded statistics.
[editline]12th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=katbug;41432810]Regail me of all the times feminist movements have done anything but promote women.[/QUOTE]
Maybe the time when my trans friend came out, and their tumblr feminist friends supported them. Despite the fact that they were transitioning from woman -> man.
[QUOTE=katbug;41432985]I said I wouldn't divorce unless my wife was a danger to the kid for the sake of the family, and in this event I would want to have custody of my kids because I wouldn't want them with said dangerous person? How is this vindictive.[/QUOTE]
You never said your hypothetical wife was dangerous, you just said that in California it was "impossible" for you to get your kid if you get a divorce
man how quickly this thread turned in to a bunch of shitheads on both sides of the fence yelling and flinging their shit at each other while screeching like animals
it's great
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