‘Men’s rights’ group defends posters claiming women lie about rape
670 replies, posted
I think men should have no rights
[QUOTE=Megafan;41437002]You keep saying there's 'a really slim chance' with an implication that you get baselessly convicted at the drop of a hat.
As an analogy, I can be shot or mugged or stabbed in the street, but just being the street lends me no idea of how likely or unlikely that is. I can only make a vague guess at best, and even then I have no means to tell how accurate that guess is.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/Jun/25/dna-uriah-courtney-rape-innocence-project/[/url]
[url]http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2013/04/25/ns-barton-court-exonerated.html[/url]
[url]http://www.ibtimes.com/who-brian-banks-football-player-wrongfully-convicted-rape-signs-nfls-atlanta-falcons-1169591[/url]
[url]http://www.wndu.com/news/nationworldnews/headlines/Man_falsely_accused_of_rape_freed_after_5_years_154248785.html[/url]
(lots more)
Plenty of people spend time in prison for rape and then are released afterwards because evidence proved them innocent. That hardly sounds "beyond reasonable doubt" if your evidence is hearsay. but again, I don't know how to make it any better.
Oh right, and how your lawyers basically tell you to settle instead of fighting it.
[QUOTE=Megafan;41437002]You keep saying there's 'a really slim chance' with an implication that you get baselessly convicted at the drop of a hat.
As an analogy, I can be shot or mugged or stabbed in the street, but just being the street lends me no idea of how likely or unlikely that is. I can only make a vague guess at best, and even then I have no means to tell how accurate that guess is.[/QUOTE]
I don't know how it is for most people who were in the situation but my friend that got accused was in a completely consensual relationship that many people in our circle of friends (of both the man and the woman) testified for, the end result was that a lawyer basically told him the best that he can do is get him off on house arrest (and I think a restraining order), but it still went down on his record and follows him to this day.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;41437053]I think men should have no rights[/QUOTE]
I agree but why?
[QUOTE=gudman;41437139]I agree but why?[/QUOTE]
Because women need them all
[QUOTE=gudman;41437139]I agree but why?[/QUOTE]
men are biologically programmed to build and/or break things, giving them responsibilities like voting or political office is an unfair burden
men would be much happier doing things around the house like changing the oil in the car or unclogging drains, while the woman is out using her skill in recognizing human emotion to solve complex societal problems
[QUOTE=katbug;41437055][url]http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/Jun/25/dna-uriah-courtney-rape-innocence-project/[/url][/quote]
He was convicted because all they had was testimony from the alleged victim, he had some criminal history, and previous DNA tests didn't prove his innocence. It's a shame that happened but there's no legal reason that caused him to be easily convicted or anything, and I don't see anything to suggest the judge was just biased towards him.
[QUOTE=katbug;41437055][url]http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2013/04/25/ns-barton-court-exonerated.html[/url][/quote]
Seems like a miscarriage of justice to me, but says nothing to the prevalence or ease by which others are convicted.
[QUOTE=katbug;41437055][url]http://www.ibtimes.com/who-brian-banks-football-player-wrongfully-convicted-rape-signs-nfls-atlanta-falcons-1169591[/url]
[url]http://www.wndu.com/news/nationworldnews/headlines/Man_falsely_accused_of_rape_freed_after_5_years_154248785.html[/url][/quote]
These are both the same case, but again an unfortunate one that should not have occurred.
[QUOTE=katbug;41437055](lots more)
Plenty of people spend time in prison for rape and then are released afterwards because evidence proved them innocent. That hardly sounds "beyond reasonable doubt" if your evidence is hearsay. but again, I don't know how to make it any better.
Oh right, and how your lawyers basically tell you to settle instead of fighting it.[/QUOTE]
Again you say 'plenty' and 'lots more' but nothing you've posted says anything about how easy or difficult it is to be convicted with regards to the legal system, simply that [I]some people have been falsely convicted.[/I] Nothing about how common it is, how easy or hard it is, or why it occurs. That's what we're talking about here, not just "has it ever happened".
[QUOTE=Megafan;41437527]He was convicted because all they had was testimony from the alleged victim, he had some criminal history, and previous DNA tests didn't prove his innocence. It's a shame that happened but there's no legal reason that caused him to be easily convicted or anything, and I don't see anything to suggest the judge was just biased towards him.
Seems like a miscarriage of justice to me, but says nothing to the prevalence or ease by which others are convicted.
These are both the same case, but again an unfortunate one that should not have occurred.
Again you say 'plenty' and 'lots more' but nothing you've posted says anything about how easy or difficult it is to be convicted with regards to the legal system, simply that [I]some people have been falsely convicted.[/I] Nothing about how common it is, how easy or hard it is, or why it occurs. That's what we're talking about here, not just "has it ever happened".[/QUOTE]
I know that it's a common enough occurence that there's full pages of (mostly) unique cases on google of victims being proven innocent years after the fact, and of course the ones that aren't ever proven will never have their stories see the light of day, everyone thinks they're a lying rapist.
It's easy to be convicted because these people obviously didn't commit the crime, a crime which the evidence can only be "he said she said" or DNA.
[QUOTE=Laputa;41422495]That's not what I was saying, I understand there may be biases against men in a few areas but a full-on mens rights movement seems kinda redundant, this is all new to me
Their core point stands, but maybe the drunk thing was the wrong angle to go about things[/QUOTE]
So you can be a Feminist but a man can't... wow...
[QUOTE=Felix Price;41439274]So you can be a Feminist but a man can't... wow...[/QUOTE]
A man can be a feminist. The men's rights movement is totally pointless though
Here's a little social experiment for some of you, and you know who you are, to try and fully understand. Find a female friend, get her to claim that you took advantage of her while she was drunk, record the reactions of everyone. Then, repeat the same experiment with a male friend being taken advantage of while drunk by a female friend, again, recording the reactions. Then compare the two, and post what you find.
I'm not responsible for any prison time or beatings/attempted murders that result of this experiment.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;41439575]Here's a little social experiment for some of you, and you know who you are, to try and fully understand. Find a female friend, get her to claim that you took advantage of her while she was drunk, record the reactions of everyone. Then, repeat the same experiment with a male friend being taken advantage of while drunk by a female friend, again, recording the reactions. Then compare the two, and post what you find.
I'm not responsible for any prison time or beatings/attempted murders that result of this experiment.[/QUOTE]
I know, patriarchal attitude to other men's rape is terrible.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;41439575]Here's a little social experiment for some of you, and you know who you are, to try and fully understand. Find a female friend, get her to claim that you took advantage of her while she was drunk, record the reactions of everyone. Then, repeat the same experiment with a male friend being taken advantage of while drunk by a female friend, again, recording the reactions. Then compare the two, and post what you find.[/QUOTE]
There's a certain sociological phenomenon that says that all men are enjoying sex no matter all the circumstances (and that it's all they can think of, ever), and that women shouldn't have sex because they have to be held to a certain standard of purity.
It's the same sociological phenomenon in both cases. We've talked about it before in this thread. Can you guess what it is?
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;41439858]There's a certain sociological phenomenon that says that all men are enjoying sex no matter all the circumstances (and that it's all they can think of, ever), and that women shouldn't have sex because they have to be held to a certain standard of purity.
It's the same sociological phenomenon in both cases. We've talked about it before in this thread. Can you guess what it is?[/QUOTE]People being assholes, as usual.
[QUOTE=AJisAwesome15;41422268]wow...[/QUOTE]
I don't wanna sound like an ass, but they got a point.
You don't just randomly get too drunk to know what's going on.
They know what's going on for more than enough time to simply say "Okey, I drank enough, I'm going to go." and prevent being unable to be too drunk to know what's going on.
They are responsible for their own body.
People get warned about the risks of alcohol all the time.
[QUOTE=Leystryku;41440207]I don't wanna sound like an ass, but they got a point.
You don't just randomly get too drunk to know what's going on.
They know what's going on for more than enough time to simply say "Okey, I drank enough, I'm going to go." and prevent being unable to be too drunk to know what's going on.
They are responsible for their own body.
People get warned about the risks of alcohol all the time.[/QUOTE]
Holy fuck.
[quote]According to Battered Women’s Support Services, studies involving 18- to 25-year-old men revealed that 48 per cent of the men did not consider it rape if a woman is too drunk to know what is going on[/quote]
they have a point do they?
You don't sound like an ass, you sound like a fucking creep.
[QUOTE=katbug;41436783]No, if a false accusation is made they're pretty much going to prison[/QUOTE]
[url=http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates]Umm... no.[/url]
Only a small percentage of cases reported to the police actually result in convictions. Are you saying that most false accusations will fall in that small percent?
Just because you can find a handful of cases on google doesn't mean that being falsely accused will automatically get you a conviction.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;41440246]Holy fuck.
they have a point do they?
You don't sound like an ass, you sound like a fucking creep.[/QUOTE]
I didn't consider such thing a rape because I never thought of this. These 48% of men from 18 to 25 probably didn't either. That doesn't make them rape apologists. Because you don't know how their opinion changed when they actually gave it some consideration, like I did.
Or they debated for it not being rape, then I want a link to the study.
[QUOTE=gudman;41440367]I didn't consider such thing a rape because I never thought of this. These 48% of men from 18 to 25 probably didn't either. That doesn't make them rape apologists. Because you don't know how their opinion changed when they actually gave it some consideration, like I did.
Or they debated for it not being rape, then I want a link to the study.[/QUOTE]
and they didnt consider it when they were asked the question? not that it should require consideration in the first place, it's pretty blatant that it's rape
[QUOTE=gudman;41440367]I didn't consider such thing a rape because I never thought of this. These 48% of men from 18 to 25 probably didn't either. That doesn't make them rape apologists. Because you don't know how their opinion changed when they actually gave it some consideration, like I did.
Or they debated for it not being rape, then I want a link to the study.[/QUOTE]
what kind of person would you need to be to think having sex with someone barely conscious was an okay thing to do.
'I didn't think' isn't a valid excuse.
[QUOTE=Hellduck;41440397]and they didnt consider it when they were asked the question? not that it should require consideration in the first place, it's pretty blatant that it's rape[/QUOTE]
That's why I want to see what kind of question was asked. Because I refuse to believe that half of the people from 18 to 25 don't mind having sex with someone shitfaced.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;41440408]what kind of person would you need to be to think having sex with someone barely conscious was an okay thing to do.
'I didn't think' isn't a valid excuse.[/QUOTE]
Some people never consider even having sex with someone barely conscious in the first place. In fact, until I found out about the issue, I didn't even imagine that this is a thing. Because fuck, why would you do that. I educated myself since then.
[QUOTE=gudman;41440547] Some people never consider even having sex with someone barely conscious in the first place. In fact, until I found out about the issue, I didn't even imagine that this is a thing. Because fuck, why would you do that. I educated myself since then.[/QUOTE]
yeah but its not like there was some vast internal struggle when you heard about it, you didnt have to spend hours trawling through philosophy textbooks and consulting with ethicists
you just went "oh yeah, that's fucking terrible"
at least i hope you did because it's pretty obviously not ok, and as soon as you think about it you should be aware that its wrong
[QUOTE=Fish_poke;41422329]People lie about rape, but this isn't generally considered lying. Consent comes from a clear state of mind, which drunk people are not in in the slightest.[/QUOTE]
But when everyone is absolutely drunk off their ass is it really anyone's fault ?
I mean there's the case where a guy drinks like one beer and waits for a chick to drink 10 before picking her up, and there's the case where both have emptied the bar and neither can even remember how they came to that point.
[QUOTE=Hellduck;41431285][img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/US_womens_earnings_as_a_percentage_of_mens_1979-2005.gif[/img][/QUOTE]
That's nearly a decade old.
[QUOTE]In the United States, the gender pay gap is measured as the ratio of female to male median yearly earnings among full-time, year-round (FTYR) workers. The female-to-male earnings ratio was 0.77 in 2009, meaning that, in 2009, female FTYR workers earned 77% as much as male FTYR workers. Women's median yearly earnings relative to men's rose rapidly from 1980 to 1990 (from 60.2% to 71.6%), and less rapidly from 1990 to 2000 (from 71.6% to 73.7%) and from 2000 to 2009 (from 73.7% to 77.0%).[19][20]
The raw wage gap data shows that a woman would earn roughly 73.7% to 77% of what a man would earn over their lifetime. However, when controllable variables are accounted for, such as number of children, and the frequency at which unpaid leave is taken, in addition to other factors, The U.S. Department of Labor found in 2008 that the gap can be brought down from 23% to between 4.8% and 7.1%.[21] Furthermore, The United States Government Accountability Office found in 2009 that when accounting for diminishing differences in variables including chosen occupation, education, and experience, the variable wage gap among federal workers can be brought to roughly 1-2%.[5]
The gender pay gap has been attributed to differences in personal and workplace characteristics between women and men (education, hours worked, occupation etc.) as well as direct and indirect discrimination in the labor market (gender stereotypes, customer and employer bias etc.).[22][23][24]
The estimates for the discriminatory component of the gender pay gap include 5%[25]:2 and 7%[26]:9 and in at least one study grow as men and women's careers progress.[26]:93 One economist testified to Congress that hundreds of studies have consistently found unexplained pay differences which potentially include discrimination.[26]:80 Another criticized these studies as insufficiently controlled, and opined that men and women would have equal pay if they made the same choices and had the same experience, education, etc.[25]: Other studies have found direct evidence of discrimination. For example, fewer replies to identical resumes if sent by women with children than by men with children[26]:10 and more jobs for women when orchestras moved to blind auditions (though the data was mixed on this, since, in normal orchestra interviews, women were preferentially chosen over men for some instruments, such as the flute).[25][/QUOTE]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap#United_States[/url]
If you shout "bla bla wikipedia bla", then look at your own graph. Or look into the source of the page.
[QUOTE=SuddenImpact;41456262]That's nearly a decade old.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap#United_States[/url]
If you shout "bla bla wikipedia bla", then look at your own graph. Or look into the source of the page.[/QUOTE]
ok? that still shows that there's a gender pay gap
[QUOTE=Hellduck;41456736]ok? that still shows that there's a gender pay gap[/QUOTE]
4 percent and 2 percent is negligible, really. There's a point where it's really just chance, pay grades between any two groups are never going to be the same.
[QUOTE=Hellduck;41440602]yeah but its not like there was some vast internal struggle when you heard about it, you didnt have to spend hours trawling through philosophy textbooks and consulting with ethicists
you just went "oh yeah, that's fucking terrible"
at least i hope you did because it's pretty obviously not ok, and as soon as you think about it you should be aware that its wrong[/QUOTE]
Yess, for the third time, this is the reason I want to see the study with my own eyes. Because I always knew that fucking someone barely showing lifesigns is a very bad thing, but did I think about it enough to consider it a rape, instead of something else? Noooo.
[QUOTE=katbug;41456782]4 percent and 2 percent is negligible, really. There's a point where it's really just chance, pay grades between any two groups are never going to be the same.[/QUOTE]
right except its not that because it's 23% minimum across all factors
[QUOTE=Hellduck;41456849]right except its not that because it's 23% minimum across all factors[/QUOTE]
No, gov't job differences are 1-2% and maximum difference now is 5-7% for civ jobs, to as little as 4%. Not ideal, but almost negligible as it stands right now for even the extremes, especially when you consider other eliminating factors such as time off for pregnancy, and the fact that women are, and I maintain this, less likely to ask for a pay raise. You're going to give me shit for it, but it's true.
[quote]One study compared the starting salaries of students graduating with master's degrees from Carnegie Mellon, and found that men's starting salaries exceeded women's by an average of almost $4,000. Because these salaries were set before the men or women had started working, Babcock looked at the process for negotiating salaries and found something startling: while Carnegie Mellon's Career Services department strongly advised all students to negotiate for their starting pay, only 7 percent of women had asked for more money than their initial offer. In contrast, 57 percent of men-8 times as many-asked for more money. Moreover, Babcock calculated that the starting salary difference for those who negotiated was on average $4,053 [/quote]
this is from [url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/aug/27/women-wont-ask-pay-rises[/url]
[QUOTE=katbug;41456941]No, gov't job differences are 1-2% and maximum difference now is 5-7% for civ jobs, to as little as 4%. Not ideal, but almost negligible as it stands right now for even the extremes, especially when you consider other eliminating factors such as time off for pregnancy, and the fact that women are, and I maintain this, less likely to ask for a pay raise. You're going to give me shit for it, but it's true.
this is from [url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/aug/27/women-wont-ask-pay-rises[/url][/QUOTE]
that's the only percentage that comes as a result of direct discrimination, but the whole 23% is as a result of a myriad of other factors that are a result of our patriarchal system.
and you've activated my trap card by posting that study, because that totally proves my point showing we live in a society in which women are expected to be unassertive
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