‘Men’s rights’ group defends posters claiming women lie about rape
670 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Hellduck;41457017]that's the only percentage that comes as a result of direct discrimination, but the whole 23% is as a result of a myriad of other factors that are a result of our patriarchal system.
and you've activated my trap card by posting that study, because that totally proves my point showing we live in a society in which women are expected to be unassertive[/QUOTE]
You can't blame women's descisions on "the patriarchy"
Society is society, not patriarchy. Not matriarchy. Not in the first world. Men are more likely to die on the job or die for others, get mauled, hurt, etc. Not all actions can be blamed on society or "the patriarchy" either, there are simply some things that are behavioral that come directly from hormones, like young men's tendency to do stupid shit.
Edit; You've also put up an impossible to defend against imaginary world, where everything that pokes a hole in your argument is the fault of "the patriarchy" and effectively nothing can prove you wrong. You're basically saying "MY OPINION IS FACT, AND IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME, YOU'RE A PRODUCT OF THE PATRIARCHY."
[QUOTE=katbug;41456941]No, gov't job differences are 1-2% and maximum difference now is 5-7% for civ jobs, to as little as 4%. Not ideal, but almost negligible as it stands right now for even the extremes, especially when you consider other eliminating factors such as time off for pregnancy, and the fact that women are, and I maintain this, less likely to ask for a pay raise. You're going to give me shit for it, but it's true.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=SuddenImpact;41456262]However, when controllable variables are accounted for, such as number of children, and the frequency at which unpaid leave is taken, in addition to other factors, The U.S. Department of Labor found in 2008 that the gap can be brought down from 23% to between 4.8% and 7.1%.[/QUOTE]
But they're [I]already accounting for those things[/I] in the study SuddenImpact gave.
[QUOTE=katbug;41456782]4 percent and 2 percent is negligible, really. There's a point where it's [B]really just chance[/B], pay grades between any two groups are never going to be the same.[/QUOTE]
Please tell me you don't actually mean that.
As it would mean that you have [I]no[/I] idea how statistics works. At all.
[editline]14th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=katbug;41457061]You can't blame women's descisions on "the patriarchy"
Society is society, not patriarchy. Not matriarchy. Not in the first world. Men are more likely to die on the job or die for others, get mauled, hurt, etc. Not all actions can be blamed on society or "the patriarchy" either, there are simply some things that are behavioral that come directly from hormones, like young men's tendency to do stupid shit.
Edit; You've also put up an impossible to defend against imaginary world, where everything that pokes a hole in your argument is the fault of "the patriarchy" and effectively nothing can prove you wrong. You're basically saying "MY OPINION IS FACT, AND IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME, YOU'RE A PRODUCT OF THE PATRIARCHY."[/QUOTE]
So the huge pressure on society for all women to be nice and quiet, calling them bitches if they show any assertion, has nothing to do with many women acting that way, especially when many workplaces still hang on to old traditions?
No, of course not, obviously estrogen naturally makes women want less money.
[QUOTE=Last or First;41457106]
So the huge pressure on society for all women to be nice and quiet, calling them bitches if they show any assertion, has nothing to do with many women acting that way, especially when many workplaces still hang on to old traditions?
No, of course not, obviously estrogen naturally makes women want less money.[/QUOTE]
You keep assuming and implying things that are not true. Stop being a dick about your opinions, I'm not the monster you keep making me out to be. When you say shit like that you just devalue your argument. Satire (especially incorrect satire) has no place in a formal discussion.
Edit; And wow, we've gone far from the OP. I still don't get how a regretted one-night stand is justifiable ground to say that a guy raped you. You can't have one-sided consensual sex; When you have sex the guy isn't "doing" sex acts to the girl, they are both having sex together.
[QUOTE=katbug;41457061]You can't blame women's descisions on "the patriarchy"
Society is society, not patriarchy. Not matriarchy. Not in the first world. Men are more likely to die on the job or die for others, get mauled, hurt, etc. Not all actions can be blamed on society or "the patriarchy" either, there are simply some things that are behavioral that come directly from hormones, like young men's tendency to do stupid shit.
Edit; You've also put up an impossible to defend against imaginary world, where everything that pokes a hole in your argument is the fault of "the patriarchy" and effectively nothing can prove you wrong. You're basically saying "MY OPINION IS FACT, AND IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME, YOU'RE A PRODUCT OF THE PATRIARCHY."[/QUOTE]
except that its a society that totally undervalues and marginalizes women
disagree with me if you want, but i personally cant close my eyes to it
[QUOTE=Hellduck;41458042]except that its a society that totally undervalues and marginalizes women
disagree with me if you want, but i personally cant close my eyes to it[/QUOTE]
Women hold value in society purely from existing, you could possibly argue that in certain situations they can be marginalized, but even in 3rd world countries, they hold value just for being women.
Men hold value only for their actions. If two people are in a building and that building is burning, if one of them is a woman then they're going to try to save her first.
[QUOTE=katbug;41458445]Women hold value in society purely from existing, you could possibly argue that in certain situations they can be marginalized, but even in 3rd world countries, they hold value just for being women.
Men hold value only for their actions. If two people are in a building and that building is burning, if one of them is a woman then they're going to try to save her first.[/QUOTE]
Society undervalues women as people, actual thinking human beings, as opposed to WOMEN-things, walking vaginas that can shoot babies.
Hence the "value" some 3rd world contries have for women.
[QUOTE=gudman;41458589]Society undervalues women as people, actual thinking human beings, as opposed to WOMEN-things, walking vaginas that can shoot babies.
Hence the "value" some 3rd world contries have for women.[/QUOTE]
It was just an example, and yes, that is true. But the fact that men's lives are worth less than women's still maintains, even though it might not be for the "right" reasons, women living is still a higher priority than men living.
And Jeep-eep, if you'd actually like to participate in discussion, I'd love to hear what you have to say.
also, I'm still wondering about
[quote]I still don't get how a regretted one-night stand is justifiable ground to say that a guy raped you. You can't have one-sided consensual sex; When you have sex the guy isn't "doing" sex acts to the girl, they are both having sex together[/quote]
[QUOTE=katbug;41458445]Women hold value in society purely from existing, you could possibly argue that in certain situations they can be marginalized, but even in 3rd world countries, they hold value just for being women.[/QUOTE]
What kind of "value" are you talking about in this case? Please elaborate.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;41458726]What kind of "value" are you talking about in this case? Please elaborate.[/QUOTE]
The value of living; being alive. The value of their existence, their person. Who you would save in a disaster situation. Who people would rather have still around.
[QUOTE=katbug;41457243]And wow, we've gone far from the OP. I still don't get how a regretted one-night stand is justifiable ground to say that a guy raped you. You can't have one-sided consensual sex; When you have sex the guy isn't "doing" sex acts to the girl, they are both having sex together.[/QUOTE]
It's a red herring. The poster is acting like the situation of "well the sex wasn't too good so I'm going to call it rape" makes up a significant portion of rape claims, which is just not true.
It's like having a poster saying "Just because items are missing from the shelves doesn't mean they were stolen" to try and raise awareness for false accusations of robbery. False accusations for any crime only happen at a tiny rate compared to the crime itself. (As we've been over already.)
[QUOTE=katbug;41458862]The value of living; being alive. [B]The value of their existence, their person. Who you would save in a disaster situation. Who people would rather have still around.[/B][/QUOTE]
but not as CEO's or heads of state though? because the bolded part is how id describe my smartphone, so if that's the maximum value you can place on a woman's life that's not great
[editline]14th July 2013[/editline]
or maybe i need to chill out about my blackberry
[QUOTE=katbug;41458862]The value of living; being alive. The value of their existence, their person. Who you would save in a disaster situation. Who people would rather have still around.[/QUOTE]
Way to dodge the question.
"Women have value just by existing!"
"What type of value are you talking about?"
"The value of existing!"
Oh yeah and also, [url=http://news.discovery.com/history/us-history/titanic-women-children-120413.htm]here[/url]. The whole "women and children first" thing is actually the exception rather than the rule.
[QUOTE=Hellduck;41458934]but not as CEO's or heads of state though? because the bolded part is how id describe my smartphone, so if that's the maximum value you can place on a woman's life that's not great
[editline]14th July 2013[/editline]
or maybe i need to chill out about my blackberry[/QUOTE]
and dont just think im stopping at ceo's and heads of state btw, women are underrepresented in an absolute bollock tonne of professions
[QUOTE=Hellduck;41458934]but not as CEO's or heads of state though? because the bolded part is how id describe my smartphone, so if that's the maximum value you can place on a woman's life that's not great
[editline]14th July 2013[/editline]
or maybe i need to chill out about my blackberry[/QUOTE]
Of course what I said is not how I value women, or how they should be valued. I was just talking about the value of their actual existence; their inherent "greater than" status without doing anything, at least in regards to their lives.
[QUOTE=katbug;41458978]Of course what I said is not how I value women, or how they should be valued. I was just talking about the value of their actual existence; their inherent "greater than" status without doing anything, at least in regards to their lives.[/QUOTE]
what?? what am i reading you have totally lost me
[QUOTE=katbug;41458978]Of course what I said is not how I value women, or how they should be valued. I was just talking about the value of their actual existence; their inherent "greater than" status without doing anything, at least in regards to their lives.[/QUOTE]
Please give concrete examples as to how women's "existence value" (whatever that means) is inherently "valued greater" than men's.
[QUOTE=Last or First;41458959]Way to dodge the question.
"Women have value just by existing!"
"What type of value are you talking about?"
"The value of existing!"
Oh yeah and also, [url=http://news.discovery.com/history/us-history/titanic-women-children-120413.htm]here[/url]. The whole "women and children first" thing is actually the exception rather than the rule.[/QUOTE]
You even managed to turn the fact that I responded to a question in to a bad thing (again).
It's not even worth talking to you if you're just going to keep pulling stuff like that.
[editline]14th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;41459001]Please give concrete examples as to how women's "existence value" (whatever that means) is inherently "valued greater" than men's.[/QUOTE]
They die far less in the workplace, are put on less dangerous missions in the military, in jobs that have dangerous labor they are generally not chosen for the more dangerous jobs
There's really no reason to continue this, so I'm just going to stop here. We clearly have opposing opinions, and that's never going to change.
[QUOTE=katbug;41459021]You even managed to turn the fact that I responded to a question in to a bad thing (again).
It's not even worth talking to you if you're just going to keep pulling stuff like that.[/quote]
But you [I]didn't[/I] respond to the question, you just restated what you originally said. It's like if you said "I have a cat!", someone asked "What type of cat is it", then you replied "You know, a cat."
And are you [I]seriously[/I] getting upset over me calling you out on that? Jesus christ.
[QUOTE=katbug;41459021]They die far less in the workplace, are put on less dangerous missions in the military, in jobs that have dangerous labor they are generally not chosen for the more dangerous jobs
There's really no reason to continue this, so I'm just going to stop here. We clearly have opposing opinions, and that's never going to change.[/QUOTE]
Yes, women do get less dangerous jobs on average. But in return, they're paid much less on average. It's only once you account for the whole job danger level thing that their pay rates get more equal.
[QUOTE=Last or First;41459202]But you [I]didn't[/I] respond to the question, you just restated what you originally said. It's like if you said "I have a cat!", someone asked "What type of cat is it", then you replied "You know, a cat."
And are you [I]seriously[/I] getting upset over me calling you out on that? Jesus christ.
Yes, women do get less dangerous jobs on average. But in return, they're paid much less on average. It's only once you account for the whole job danger level thing that their pay rates get more equal.[/QUOTE]
This is probably going to be my last post here
No, I said that women being alive (assuming there are no other major factors) is more valuable than men being alive, for any given number of reasons raging from first world society to the fact that their saviors think they'll get laid.
In response to your second paragraph, Isn't that one of the major arguments for why women get payed less, because they are less likely to die on the job? That sill isn't fair, if they're doing the same work they should get the same pay. The only way to win on this front is to make jobs safer.
[QUOTE=katbug;41459021]You even managed to turn the fact that I responded to a question in to a bad thing (again).
It's not even worth talking to you if you're just going to keep pulling stuff like that.[/QUOTE]
well im sorry but your answer was p dumb so i think its fair enough
[QUOTE=katbug;41459021]They die far less in the workplace, are put on less dangerous missions in the military, in jobs that have dangerous labor they are generally not chosen for the more dangerous jobs
There's really no reason to continue this, so I'm just going to stop here. We clearly have opposing opinions, and that's never going to change.[/QUOTE]
ok? that's a totally ludicrous point they're underrepresented in those jobs because of the creepy patriarchal idea that they're not cut out for dangerous work
[QUOTE=katbug;41459281]This is probably going to be my last post here[/QUOTE]
I'll hold you up to that.
[QUOTE=katbug;41459281]No, I said that women being alive (assuming there are no other major factors) is more valuable than men being alive, for any given number of reasons raging from first world society to the fact that their saviors think they'll get laid.
In response to your second paragraph, Isn't that one of the major arguments for why women get payed less, because they are less likely to die on the job? That sill isn't fair, if they're doing the same work they should get the same pay. The only way to win on this front is to make jobs safer.[/QUOTE]
or just let women do as many dangerous jobs as men?
[editline]14th July 2013[/editline]
victoire
[QUOTE=katbug;41431681]I haven't said anything on that matter, all I have said so far is that a lot of the "persecution" that women face isn't real in the first world.
But now that you've mentioned the "nonexistent" men's persecution, I have some statistics and information;
Men are legally obligated to join the draft
Men only have two domestic violence shelters in the entirety of the US.
Prostate cancer has far less funding than breast cancer, even though rates are nearly identical
I can't control if my child is being put up for adoption or not.
It is nearly impossible for me to get custody of my child.
I get longer sentences for the same crime.
If I act compassionately towards a step child, I can become legally obligated to pay for aid.
80% of all youth suicides are from young men.
I am 10 times more likely to become homeless than a woman.
If I am raped by a woman, I will probably be told that I shouldn't whine about it/can't get raped, etc.
Female-owned business get free money form the government exclusively for being run by a woman.
If a woman hits me, she is brave; If I hit a woman I am a coward and a sexual assailant
I am expected to pay the bill for pretty much everything
Custodial mothers are 79.6% likely to get child support; only 30% of men get child support
and I can cite pretty much every one of these.
I think that due to how everything is set up, men and women are on fairly equal footing. I don't consider most of these to be "putting me down", it's just how things are.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry I know this a 2 day old post that has probably been ripped apart by now but I just have to respond to it because how wrong you are.
You realize that women aren't the only victims of a patriarchal society right? If you've ever been called a pussy or a sissy in school for not living up to "manly" expectations then you're a male victim of patriarchy. Nearly everything you listed is the result of men being put in privileged positions and having masculine expectations ingrained in society.
"It's just how things are" is such a shitty justification for the status quo. Should we have bothered with civil rights or women's suffrage? "Men and women are pretty equal. Women can't vote, and neither can blacks, but it's just how things are y'know?"
Cool thanks for letting us know you are not personally being put down as a presumable white teenage male living in America. Apathy and ignorance is what breeds cultural oppression.
a very good point and one that i of course completely agree with, but you totally robbed me of the chance to have the triumphant last post in the thread and i am very upset with you as a consequence
[editline]14th July 2013[/editline]
and i cant do it again now, the magics gone
[QUOTE=katbug;41431681]
It is nearly impossible for me to get custody of my child.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure whether this is actually true. Yes, women tend to get custody of children a lot more than men do, but you have to take into account the fact that women [I]ask[/I] for custody a lot more than men do. [URL="http://www.villainouscompany.com/vcblog/archives/2012/04/child_supportcu.html"]There is evidence[/URL] that when men [I]do[/I] ask for custody, they're very likely to get it. Just sayin'.
[img]http://filesmelt.com/dl/oh_my_god_hes_still_going.png[/img]
ffs
[editline]15th July 2013[/editline]
he's still going
[QUOTE=Hellduck;41459314]well im sorry but your answer was p dumb so i think its fair enough
ok? that's a totally ludicrous point they're underrepresented in those jobs because of the creepy patriarchal idea that they're not cut out for dangerous work[/QUOTE]
Well we should push for women do be put in more dangerous jobs, and put them in the selective service if they are cut out for dangerous work.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;41459936] Cool thanks for letting us know you are not personally being put down as a presumable white teenage male living in America. Apathy and ignorance is what breeds cultural oppression.[/QUOTE]
You had a good argument until you just resorted to calling him "white male american teenager."
[QUOTE=goldenbuttocks;41460830]Well we should push for women do be put in more dangerous jobs, and put them in the selective service if they are cut out for dangerous work.[/QUOTE]
yes
[editline]15th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=goldenbuttocks;41460830]You had a good argument until you just resorted to calling him "white male american teenager."[/QUOTE]
that doesnt have any effect on the rest of his argument
[QUOTE=goldenbuttocks;41460830]You had a good argument until you just resorted to calling him "white male american teenager."[/QUOTE]
societal privilege is a thing; ignorance towards the issue is bad
[B]edit:[/B]
bazsil why don't you post something instead of saying "wow dumb heh..."
[QUOTE=Hellduck;41460845]yes
[editline]15th July 2013[/editline]
that doesnt have any effect on the rest of his argument[/QUOTE]
it kind of does, that's why he said "Apathy and ignorance is what breeds cultural oppression," because he thinks the poster he was replying to was a privileged white rich male who is ignorant.
[QUOTE=Ownederd;41460924]societal privilege is a thing; ignorance towards the issue is bad[/QUOTE]
yes but being white doesn't make you automatically privileged so i don't know why he included that in there.
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