‘Men’s rights’ group defends posters claiming women lie about rape
670 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Ownederd;41460924]societal privilege is a thing; ignorance towards the issue is bad[/QUOTE]
especially when katbugs argument is reduced to "I don't see it so it doesn't exist"
[editline]15th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=goldenbuttocks;41460934]yes but being white doesn't make you automatically privileged so i don't know why he included that in there.[/QUOTE]
well it kinda does
I couldn't possibly pull my lifestyle off if I wasn't a white western male.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;41460942]
well it kinda does
I couldn't possibly pull my lifestyle off if I wasn't a white western male.[/QUOTE]
there are plenty of white people who are poor, same with males.
[QUOTE=goldenbuttocks;41460978]there are plenty of white people who are poor, same with males.[/QUOTE]
thats not what it means~
lmao
sorry the fact that poor white people exist hardly invalidates it.
I mean, fuck I'm poor.
[QUOTE=goldenbuttocks;41460934]it kind of does, that's why he said "Apathy and ignorance is what breeds cultural oppression," because he thinks the poster he was replying to was a privileged white rich male who is ignorant.
[/QUOTE]
uuh no hes just an ignorant person
[QUOTE=NoDachi;41460995]thats not what it means~
lmao
sorry the fact that poor white people exist hardly invalidates it.
I mean, fuck I'm poor.[/QUOTE]
What is your defintion of privelige, then?
[QUOTE=goldenbuttocks;41461021]What is your defintion of privelige?[/QUOTE]
advantage
[QUOTE=NoDachi;41461029]advantage[/QUOTE]
Yeah, i guess i can kind of see your point but its not anyones fault they are born white and male
[QUOTE=goldenbuttocks;41461021]What is your defintion of privelige, then?[/QUOTE]
Basically, it would be hard for you to understand the prevalence of problems women face because you're not a woman. Or the same with other groups.
You're not going to be discriminated against or expected to do something because you're a woman, because you're not a woman. So you're not going to know how often women are discriminated against or expected to be something because you're not experiencing it firsthand.
Edit: It's not [I]bad[/I] to be privileged. You just have to understand that you won't have the best idea of what it's like to be another group when you're posting an argument.
[QUOTE=goldenbuttocks;41461063]Yeah, i guess i can kind of see your point but its not anyones fault they are born white and male[/QUOTE]
why do people get so scared when they see the world privilege
omg its not my fault i was born a white male stop oppressing me i'm poor too
completely missing the point bro
[editline]15th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Last or First;41461070]Basically, it would be hard for you to understand the prevalence of problems women face because you're not a woman. Or the same with other groups.
You're not going to be discriminated against or expected to do something because you're a woman, because you're not a woman. So you're not going to know how often women are discriminated against or expected to be something because you're not experiencing it firsthand.
Edit: It's not [I]bad[/I] to be privileged. You just have to understand that you won't have the best idea of what it's like to be another group when you're posting an argument.[/QUOTE]
That's why I liked Spivek's criticism of post-colonial studies, she said it basically boiled down to old white men, talking to other old white men about young black women.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;41461085]why do people get so scared when they see the world privilege
omg its not my fault i was born a white male stop oppressing me i'm poor too
completely missing the point bro
[editline]15th July 2013[/editline]
That's why I liked Spivek's criticism of post-colonial studies, she said it basically boiled down to old white men, talking to other old white men about young black women.[/QUOTE]
What is the point then? Im not even white either, nor am I saying they are oppressed.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge7i60GuNRg&feature=youtu.be[/media]
[editline]15th July 2013[/editline]
Having privilege is like being randomly assigned an OP class in a game with poor balance. It doesn't mean you'll always win, and some specific situations may favour another class despite the lack of balance, but ultimately you do have a competitive advantage over other classes.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;41461154][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge7i60GuNRg&feature=youtu.be[/media]
[editline]15th July 2013[/editline][/QUOTE]
You showed this to supposedly prove white males have more advantages, but when he was stealing the bike people were still suspicious. However, no one was suspicous of the white female and when they were, they even offered to help her steal it.
The video you posted kind of defeats your argument.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;41461154][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge7i60GuNRg&feature=youtu.be[/media]
[editline]15th July 2013[/editline][/QUOTE]
Oh come on, this vid smelled fishy the moment it appeared in Videos section, and everyone called it out on it.
[QUOTE=goldenbuttocks;41462160]You showed this to supposedly prove white males have more advantages, but when he was stealing the bike people were still suspicious. However, no one was suspicous of the white female and when they were, they even offered to help her steal it.
The video you posted kind of defeats your argument.[/QUOTE]
Why? The women only got away with it because men deemed her sexually valuable.
I only posted it to be facetious anyway.
[editline]15th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=gudman;41462234]Oh come on, this vid smelled fishy the moment it appeared in Videos section, and everyone called it out on it.[/QUOTE]
Sure.
Here is a better video.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igYL5w0ZVc8[/media]
[QUOTE=Last or First;41461070]Basically, it would be hard for you to understand the prevalence of problems women face because you're not a woman. Or the same with other groups.
You're not going to be discriminated against or expected to do something because you're a woman, because you're not a woman. So you're not going to know how often women are discriminated against or expected to be something because you're not experiencing it firsthand.
Edit: It's not [I]bad[/I] to be privileged. You just have to understand that you won't have the best idea of what it's like to be another group when you're posting an argument.[/QUOTE]
You're making it sound like men aren't expected to do things and aren't looked down upon if they don't meet the "standards".
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;41468896]You're making it sound like men aren't expected to do things and aren't looked down upon if they don't meet the "standards".[/QUOTE]
Welcome to the patriarchy.
Please wipe your feet.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;41468929]Welcome to the patriarchy.
Please wipe your feet.[/QUOTE]
Do you have a point or you're just going for zings? What does that have to do with what I said?
[QUOTE=NoDachi;41461085]white male
[/QUOTE]
I hope I'm not the only one who finds this "White male" shit creepy.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;41468955]Do you have a point or you're just going for zings? What does that have to do with what I said?[/QUOTE]
What does your point have to do with what Last or First said?
Apart from a persecution complex.
I mean you just went from reading a post about not understanding what women have to deal with to - what about men! ;_;
Why?
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;41468955]Do you have a point or you're just going for zings? What does that have to do with what I said?[/QUOTE]
he means that what you said is the result of gender roles enforced by the patriarchal way society is run. feminism if anything is more likely to help you resolve these roles than anyone else, because those roles affect women as much as men and it never hurts to be educated on them.
[QUOTE=Aphtonites;41468985]I hope I'm not the only one who finds this "White male" shit creepy.[/QUOTE]
I find Silly Sil + support group more creepy when they say stuff like how women share some of the responsibility for getting raped. I think he compared it to leaving a car unlocked.
That was fun.
Zung.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;41468955]Do you have a point or you're just going for zings? What does that have to do with what I said?[/QUOTE]
The expectations that are placed on men are consequences of misogyny. Men are expected to work because women weren't thought to be capable of doing anything other than menial tasks, men are expected to perform physically strenuous activities because society thinks women are weaker, men can oftentimes have difficulty gaining custody of children because women are expected to be the ones to bear the burden of raising children.
Restrictive gender roles oftentimes hurt men as well as women, but they [i]do not result from anti-male prejudice, they are the result of misogyny[/i].
Before you call something sexist you have to understand it with regards to the larger social context in which it exists.
[QUOTE=Cone;41469071]he means that what you said is the result of gender roles enforced by the patriarchal way society is run. feminism if anything is more likely to help you resolve these roles than anyone else, because those roles affect women as much as men and it never hurts to be educated on them.[/QUOTE]
Well yes that exactly why I asked. There are gender roles for both men and women so I don't understand why would someone say "you won't understand because you're not going to be discriminated against or expected to do something"
[QUOTE=NoDachi;41469067]What does your point have to do with what Last or First said?
Apart from a persecution complex.
I mean you just went from reading a post about not understanding what women have to deal with to - what about men! ;_;
Why?[/QUOTE]
What does persecution complex have to do with anything? Why are you so fixated about this? Why do you read literally every post questioning/disagreeing as "but what about men we are being oppressed too"
The post basically said "you won't understand how it is to be expected to do things or be this and that and getting discriminated if you don't." I'm sorry I can understand that completely because men get the same shit, although in different fields and less but still.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;41469127]The expectations that are placed on men are consequences of misogyny. Men are expected to work because women weren't thought to be capable of doing anything other than menial tasks, men are expected to perform physically strenuous activities because society thinks women are weaker, men can oftentimes have difficulty gaining custody of children because women are expected to be the ones to bear the burden of raising children.
Restrictive gender roles oftentimes hurt men as well as women, but they [I]do not result from anti-male prejudice, they are the result of misogyny[/I].
Before you call something sexist you have to understand it with regards to the larger social context in which it exists.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for explaining it all to me like I it's the first time I've ever heard about gender roles. Doesn't change the fact in the slightest that there's a gender role for men too.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;41469116]I find Silly Sil + support group more creepy when they say stuff like how women share some of the responsibility for getting raped. I think he compared it to leaving a car unlocked.
That was fun.
Zung.[/QUOTE]
I see you still don't get it after like 5 we've had this conversation. Never said that women share responsibility for getting raped. It's just in your brain that can only think in black and white terms.
And I compared knowing about a danger and ignoring it to leaving a car unlocked. Which you refuse to understand too.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;41469248] I see you still don't get it after like 5 we've had this conversation. Never said that women share responsibility for getting raped. It's just in your brain that can only think in black and white terms.
And I compared knowing about a danger and ignoring it to leaving a car unlocked. Which you refuse to understand too.[/QUOTE]
You literally said this about women
[quote=Silly Sil]They are responsible for making it more likely to happen but only the perpetrators are to blame for the actual act.[/quote]
Women are are responsible for making it more likely that they are raped.
wow.
But its okay, only the perpetrators are blamed for the actual act, but lets not forget women are responsible for making it more likely to happen.
Merely for wearing what clothes they want, or drinking socially like other men. They are more responsible.
but these roles against men are literally the direct result of misogyny, as was just explained. so how exactly can you say that these roles exist and acknowledge that they're caused by misogyny, but that society isn't inherently discriminating against women? you're doublethinking all over the place.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;41469248]What does persecution complex have to do with anything? Why are you so fixated about this? Why do you read literally every post questioning/disagreeing as "but what about men we are being oppressed too"[/QUOTE]
You literally said
"You're making it sound like men aren't expected to do things"
on something nothing to do with men lol
[editline]15th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;41469248]Thank you for explaining it all to me like I it's the first time I've ever heard about gender roles. Doesn't change the fact in the slightest that there's a gender role for men too.[/QUOTE]
He's talking about male gender roles you muppet.
Maybe if you grasped a rather simple academic concept it wouldn't needed to be repeated every damn page.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;41469303]You literally said this about women
Women are are responsible for making it more likely that they are raped.
wow.
But its okay, only the perpetrators are blamed for the actual act, but lets not forget women are responsible for making it more likely to happen.
Merely for wearing what clothes they want, or drinking socially like other men. They are more responsible.[/QUOTE]
Are you that dense? This is extremely easy. I've explained this many times and I really can't make it simpler. Lets try again tho.
If there is a conceivable danger and you can take steps to reduce that danger you make the dangerous thing less likely to happen yes?
If you ignore the conceivable danger and you don't take steps to reduce that danger you make it more likely to happen yes?
Everybody knows there are men who go to bars/clubs to get laid and will buy women drinks or even spike them. If you ignore that these men exist and you get really drunk with strangers, the chance of you getting hurt one way or another is bigger if you didn't do that.
And before you go "but nobody should be afraid of having fun and getting taken advantage of or hurt". Yes I agree completely. But as long as these people exist, it's unwise to act like they don't. It's not responsibility of victims to take precautions against people who might hurt you, but as long as the danger exist, take precautions.
I don't understand what's so sexist misogynistic or rape apologizing, about saying that there are men who'll try to force drunken girls to have sex with them and that girls should be careful.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;41469337]He's talking about male gender roles you muppet.
Maybe if you grasped a rather simple academic concept it wouldn't needed to be repeated every damn page.[/QUOTE]
Someone suggests that men can't understand how women are expected to do things and how they are discriminated if they don't follow the standards.
I reply that we can understand because there are male gender roles too.
Someone explain gender roles to me for some reason.
I say that it doesn't change anything about men not understanding how it is to be expected to do things based on your gender because what have just been explain is exactly what I was talking about.
What the fuck are you talking about?
So the onus is on women to deal with rape, and the likelihood of rape?
So in the end, you do think they need to be more responsible?
Rape victims that is.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;41469441]I don't understand what's so sexist misogynistic or rape apologizing, about saying that there are men who'll try to force drunken girls to have sex with them and that girls should be careful.[/QUOTE]
Because it's addressing the symptoms instead of the root of the problem. Instead of saying "women should be taking steps not to be raped", why not say "men should be taking steps to not rape people" ?
I could as well say something like "there will always be women who go out at night therefore it's unwise to rape them" (??)
And between "tell women to restrict their liberty" and "tell men to not perform a crime", it seems to me that the one which makes the most sense would be the latter.
However, all of that is forgetting, that, the majority of rapes are not done for a sexual need but power. You could tell all women to cover from head to feet (see: burquas) and rapes would still occur. Because women can't possibly avoid rape if you don't try to address the perpetrators.
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