• ‘Men’s rights’ group defends posters claiming women lie about rape
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[QUOTE=KigJow;41486081][url]http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3175510?uid=3739616&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21102467892391[/url] [editline]16th July 2013[/editline] You check the link, too.[/QUOTE] woo look at me everybody i can choose specific definitions of a word to push forward a meaningless point about semantics wee [url]http://www.thefreedictionary.com/academic[/url]
[QUOTE=katbug;41486109]But that's lumping by association, and therefore concluding that because I am a man, I am the problem. You should be vilifying a thought process, and not a gender. If I want to advocate for my own rights, as a man, against something that other men have deduced is the "correct way", I should not be discouraged.[/QUOTE] but i never did anything close to vilifying your gender? my entire point is that gender roles have establish men as being like this, and feminism seeks to abolish these roles. so help feminism and you help yourself and your gender. [QUOTE=katbug;41486109]No, of course not, I never even implied that. I never said that men needed MORE power, only that the power that there is needs to be more equally distributed.[/QUOTE] well it's hardly even at the moment, and it certainly isn't going unilaterally in women's favor. so if THIS is what men are like when they don't have a voice, i'd really hate to imagine what it's like when there's established groups singing their praises.
[QUOTE=lolwutdude;41486154]holy shit, feminism is worse than marxism, while marxism is just bad 10/10 argument i am on your side now fuck feminazis, men's rights 4 lyfe, lying sluts that cry rape every 5 minutes[/QUOTE] Way to miss the point entirely.
essentially if you need to know why MRA is overwhelmingly a meaningless veil for sexist dudes to whine about shit, its because nearly all of the issues men face in society regarding their sex is a direct result of sexism against women and i don't see why this concept is difficult to grasp. you lose custody battles because women are seen as the caregivers. you have to work to support your family because women are apparently incapable of performing anything other than menial tasks like cleaning house or washing dishes. you get drafted because women are "too weak" to fight and contribute to the military. name an issue and ill tell you why its there, its not hard to figure out. [editline]16th July 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=KigJow;41486209]Way to miss the point entirely.[/QUOTE] what point? a sensational, moronic author choosing a specific definition of academic to make some weird, meaningless and unrelated semantic point about how feminism cant be academic, as if it has any relevancy to anything
[QUOTE=Cone;41486194]but i never did anything close to vilifying your gender? my entire point is that gender roles have establish men as being like this, and feminism seeks to abolish these roles. so help feminism and you help yourself and your gender.[/QUOTE] Why is supporting mens rights against feminism? These gender roles are a problem. Women are disadvantaged and men are given more responsibility along with less value. Abolishing these roles is in the interest of both sexes.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;41486221]what point? a sensational, moronic author choosing a specific definition of academic to make some weird, meaningless and unrelated semantic point about how feminism cant be academic, as if it has any relevancy to anything[/QUOTE] It was relevant to when I asked why should feminism be in an academic environment.
[QUOTE=Cone;41486194]but i never did anything close to vilifying your gender? my entire point is that gender roles have establish men as being like this, and feminism seeks to abolish these roles. so help feminism and you help yourself and your gender.[/QUOTE] No, but you said it like "well they're men, and they made the problem, so in order to fix your man problem you need to support women instead", when I should be advocating for my rights as well as anyone else who needs them (including but not limited to Women).
[QUOTE=KigJow;41486267]It was relevant to when I asked why should feminism be in an academic environment.[/QUOTE] because its a culturally significant ideology that has serious impact on society [editline]16th July 2013[/editline] its the same reason theres shit like black studies
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;41486235]Why is supporting mens rights against feminism? These gender roles are a problem. Women are disadvantaged and men are given more responsibility along with less value. Abolishing these roles is in the interest of both sexes.[/QUOTE] thisthisthisthisthis this is EXACTLY what I've been saying.
[QUOTE=KigJow;41485853]You just proved katbug's point. You indeed said that feminism fights for everyone's equality, yet Maxof2D's quote states that feminism is a movement for social and economic rights for [B]women[/B]. It's not for everyone's equality, it is only to get more rights for women.[/QUOTE] Have you ever considered the possibility that women are campaigning for more rights because men have them and they don't??
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;41486235]Why is supporting mens rights against feminism? These gender roles are a problem. Women are disadvantaged and men are given more responsibility along with less value. Abolishing these roles is in the interest of both sexes.[/QUOTE] if MRA's were actually trying to fix things they would be feminists, since feminism is the key to fixing male gender roles too. also, nasty as gender roles for men may be, they still pale in comparison to women's - as i've said pretty much everything society does in terms of gender stems from misogynist systems and ideals, so the idea that the male situation is is somehow worth prioritizing above women's rights is inherently misogynist, as it ignores this key fact and thus that women have problems.
[QUOTE=Cone;41486384]if MRA's were actually trying to fix things they would be feminists, since feminism is the key to fixing male gender roles too. also, nasty as gender roles for men may be, they still pale in comparison to women's - as i've said pretty much everything society does in terms of gender stems from misogynist systems and ideals, so the idea that the male situation is is somehow worth prioritizing above women's rights is inherently misogynist, as it ignores this key fact and thus that women have problems.[/QUOTE] Wrong. So wrong. There should be no prioritizing. There should only progress, on all fronts, simultaneously. Saying that something needs to happen first is just plain wrong. Everything should happen at the same time. Saying "women's rights supporters, TAKE THE WHEEL" will never lead to equality, it's just like saying the same for men's right supporters.
[QUOTE=katbug;41486414]Wrong. So wrong. There should be no prioritizing. There should only progress, on all fronts, simultaneously. Saying that something needs to happen first is just plain wrong. Everything should happen at the same time. Saying "women's rights supporters, TAKE THE WHEEL" will never lead to equality, it's just like saying the same for men's right supporters.[/QUOTE] Idk, I think black rights should have certainly taken priority over white rights. Do you disagree?
[QUOTE=katbug;41486414]Wrong. So wrong. There should be no prioritizing. There should only progress, on all fronts, simultaneously. Saying that something needs to happen first is just plain wrong. Everything should happen at the same time. Saying "women's rights supporters, TAKE THE WHEEL" will never lead to equality, it's just like saying the same for men's right supporters.[/QUOTE] I suppose heterosexual rights deserve as much campaigning and support as LGBT rights then?
[QUOTE=katbug;41486414]Wrong. So wrong. There should be no prioritizing. There should only progress, on all fronts, simultaneously. Saying that something needs to happen first is just plain wrong. Everything should happen at the same time. Saying "women's rights supporters, TAKE THE WHEEL" will never lead to equality, it's just like saying the same for men's right supporters.[/QUOTE] i have literally just told you the solution to all this dumb bullshit that you are so infatuated with fixing and how to make make life easier for all men, and you're throwing it back at me because you don't think it's fast enough? i've just finished explaining where all these problems come from and now, somehow, attempting to ease this patriarchy - [I]the thing that is causing all of this shit to happen and men to have these problems that you keep fucking going on about[/I] - is not a good enough idea? feminism [I]is[/I] progress on all fronts, man. i have spent literally the last day or so explaining this concept to you. no more patriarchy, no more gender roles, no more problems for you or for women. you fix this shit then everybody's problems are fixed as well, everything happens at the same time because if this problem gets better then it gets better for you too [I]because it's also affecting you.[/I] think this through, do the maths, i don't care, just realize this one freaking thing.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;41486527]Idk, I think black rights should have certainly taken priority over white rights. [/QUOTE] No. All ethnic/racial discrimination should be dealt with as an equal priority.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;41486635]No. All ethnic/racial discrimination should be dealt with as an equal priority.[/QUOTE] So every problem black people had we need to find a problem white people suffered at the same time? I don't know, I think correcting the rights of second class citizens takes priority.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;41486652]So every problem black people had we need to find a problem white people suffered at the same time?[/QUOTE] Why are you even talking about the past. And yes, once again, everything should be dealt with as a singular issue. Also black people are NOT second class citizens.
[QUOTE=katbug;41486668]And yes, once again, everything should be dealt with as a singular issue.[/QUOTE] So feminism? I mean they deal with gender problems as a singular issue. [editline]17th July 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=katbug;41486668]Also black people are NOT second class citizens.[/QUOTE] but they were, and to some extent still discriminated against. but you think their rights movement isn't more important than white rights movements
[QUOTE=NoDachi;41486673]So feminism?[/QUOTE] If your brand of feminism means everything having equal priority and dealt with as soon as possible, then yes. [quote=wikipedia]Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.[3][/quote] Feminism is first and foremost a women's movement.
[QUOTE=katbug;41486723]If your brand of feminism means everything having equal priority and dealt with as soon as possible, then yes. Feminism is first and foremost a women's movement.[/QUOTE] But if they make the genders equal, then ta da, problems solved. No one is being shitted on for being a gender. it pains me deeply how you can't grasp simple academic concepts.
[QUOTE=katbug;41486723]If your brand of feminism means everything having equal priority and dealt with as soon as possible, then yes. Feminism is first and foremost a women's movement.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=the next paragraph in the wikipedia article]Feminism is mainly focused on women's issues, but because feminism seeks gender equality, bell hooks and other feminists have argued that men's liberation is a necessary part of feminism, and that men are also harmed by sexism and gender roles.[13][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=katbug;41486723]If your brand of feminism means everything having equal priority and dealt with as soon as possible, then yes. Feminism is first and foremost a women's movement.[/QUOTE] And NAACP is first and foremost a colored people's movement. What's your point?
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;41486784]And NAACP is first and foremost a colored people's movement. What's your point?[/QUOTE] I think he's saying feminism is primarily for women's rights, and other rights they claim to be for come at best in the backseat.
[QUOTE=Tweevle;41486776] wikipedia quote[/QUOTE] [quote=katbug]first and foremost [/quote] [quote=wikipedia]Feminism is mainly focused on women's issues[/quote]
[QUOTE=rest of the quote]but because [B]feminism seeks gender equality[/B], bell hooks and other feminists have argued that [B]men's liberation is a necessary part of feminism[/B][/QUOTE] I don't really get what you're arguing for anyway. That everyone should devote an equal amount of time and energy to every issue in the world? Of course people are going to focus on issues that affect them directly and are passionate about, that's how it works. It's easy to say people should devote equal focus to every problem when you're not actually doing anything at all. As long as they're doing [I]something[/I] about the problems that exist in the world, that's a [I]good thing.[/I] [editline]edit[/editline] Especially if by doing so it has a positive effect on other problems too.
the warrior returns [editline]01:32[/editline] feminism aims to elevate the status of women in society to a level equal to that of men. women arent the only ones to feel the negative effects of this lower status, but they are the ones directly affected by it, that's why feminism focuses on women. mra acts often in direct contradiction to feminism, making a mockery of legitimate grievances and giving undue precedence to comparative non-issues. in this regard mra acts against equality for both sexes
[QUOTE=Tweevle;41486909]I don't really get what you're arguing for anyway. That everyone should devote an equal amount of time and energy to every issue in the world? Of course people are going to focus on issues that affect them directly and are passionate about, that's how it works. It's easy to say people should devote equal focus to every problem when you're not actually doing anything at all. As long as they're doing [I]something[/I] about the problems that exist in the world, that's a [I]good thing.[/I] [editline]edit[/editline] Especially if by doing so it has a positive effect on other problems too.[/QUOTE] You're basically making my argument for me. Men are going to advocate for men's rights (which will positively affect women) Women will advocate for their own rights (which will positively affect men), and people will intermingle and support the "other" side (male supporting female, female supporting male) saying that men shouldn't have a voice is ridiculous. [editline]16th July 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=sgman91;41486033]Good thing feminism wasn't held to this standard before it become an actual thing or it would have died before it ever started.[/QUOTE] Also I'm going back and saying that this is a really great point.
[QUOTE=katbug;41490013]You're basically making my argument for me. Men are going to advocate for men's rights (which will positively affect women) Women will advocate for their own rights (which will positively affect men), and people will intermingle and support the "other" side (male supporting female, female supporting male) saying that men shouldn't have a voice is ridiculous.[/QUOTE] People aren't saying that though. The problem with the MRAs isn't that they're speaking out about problems that affect men (unless they're trying to derail discussions about problems that affect women, but that's a separate issue), but that they're usually putting the blame for these problems in all the wrong places i.e. women and feminists instead of oppressive gender roles perpetuated by patriarchal attitudes. They also actively work against feminists trying to solve that instead of working with them. Men trying to sort out the actual causes of these problems and supporting the other side will be feminists and/or feminist allies, so I don't think anyone here has a problem with them.
[QUOTE=Crazy;41429685]Are you talking about FEMEN?[/QUOTE] I was referring to the MRA, but I don't think it was very obvious.
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