‘Men’s rights’ group defends posters claiming women lie about rape
670 replies, posted
[QUOTE=goldenbuttocks;41422964]
um okay earlier you were just saying that MRAs conjure men being oppressed out of thin air but you're doing the same thing.[/QUOTE]
is rape not historically a tool of oppression against women?
i mean war-rape has been a constant since the Iliad.
[QUOTE=thisispain;41422976]is rape not historically a tool of oppression against women?
i mean war-rape has been a constant since the Iliad.[/QUOTE]
historically, true. im not sure about modern standards though or is it the so-called patriarchy I keep hearing about?
[QUOTE=thisispain;41422946]look up steubenville rape[/QUOTE]
"implicitly forgiven in our society" You've also got some parts of your country that think gay is a disease but I don't think you would cite westboro as evidence that western society is steadfastly anti-gay would you?
In fact steubenville is actually a weak example to use, because I would say that the response by the public once the story got to the media is evidence enough that rape is most certainly not forgiven.
Go the other way with this and I would say that the accusation of rape alone is enough to erode a person's social standing, forever. But this doesn't mean I jump the gun and say false rape accusations are a legitimate epidemic in society, because lol its not.
[QUOTE=goldenbuttocks;41422988]historically, true. im not sure about modern standards though, if you can explain that would be nice.[/QUOTE]
war rape is a strong reality for a lot of women in the world. my mum does a lot of charity work for those women, so it certainly has not changed.
[QUOTE=jaegerisacunt;41422991]
In fact steubenville is actually a weak example to use, because I would say that the response by the public once the story got to the media is evidence enough that rape is most certainly not forgiven.
[/QUOTE]
Most people were outraged but many people supported the rapists, CNN even had a host reporting on the poor rapists and how their football careers were ruined because of their rape. The harm done to the victim received little media attention.
[QUOTE=thisispain;41423001]war rape is a strong reality for a lot of women in the world. my mum does a lot of charity work for those women, so it certainly has not changed.[/QUOTE]
ah i see, good for your mom then.
guys you might as well ignore thisispain, all his/her posts are so stupid it's painful
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Thanks for your contribution" - Starpluck))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Devodiere;41422915]This is what I really hate about people throwing around the word patriarchy so much. You attribute everything to a cultural phenomenon including things that are obviously just human nature. Everyone will try to justify their actions and rape exists outside of your definition of a tool of oppression, ducks rape each other more than humans for fucks sake.
If you're going to stretch the definition so broadly and attribute everything possible to it you might as well be talking about the Illuminati. Be practical, break things down into actual problems rather than imagining great conspiracies, and have the slightest understanding of the difference between nature and nurture.[/QUOTE]
Sociology 101: most of the things you think are natural are actually socialized at an early age. There is a lot of academic research about male aggression and rape, and most of it suggests an origin in the nature, but an amplification through social acceptance of that natural desire and violence.
So it is both nature and nurture, yes, but the problem of the Patriarchy is that no effort is made to suppress nature through nurture, but to encourage it.
If you want to read more into it, read "The Monster Within" (a book that talks about both natural and social origins of male violence) and watch "Tough Guise" (documentary about social origins of male violence).
Also, let us not discuss not understanding things or logical leaps while comparing Patriarchy to the Illuminati.
[QUOTE=jaegerisacunt;41422991]"implicitly forgiven in our society" You've also got some parts of your country that think gay is a disease but I don't think you would cite westboro as evidence that western society is steadfastly anti-gay would you?[/QUOTE]
well thinking that being gay is a disease isnt limited to westboro by any means so i dont get your point? theres no objective measure of how socially acceptable something is anyway.
[QUOTE=jaegerisacunt;41422991]In fact steubenville is actually a weak example to use, because I would say that the response by the public once the story got to the media is evidence enough that rape is most certainly not forgiven.[/QUOTE]
the media was mostly apologetic of the perpetrators, not the victim.
[QUOTE=jaegerisacunt;41422991]Go the other way with this and I would say that the accusation of rape alone is enough to erode a person's social standing, forever. But this doesn't mean I jump the gun and say false rape accusations are a legitimate epidemic in society, because lol its not.[/QUOTE]
i'd be perfectly willing to attract the arbitrary "epidemic" tag to false rape accusations if it gets us anywhere closer to reform of how rape is handled.
however this disgusting poster is so one-sided and off-base from reality that no-one in their right mind should find it acceptable.
snip
[QUOTE=jaegerisacunt;41422900]From the website cited there:
"
[B]However, the data in the picture that has been circulating has been misrepresented.[/B] The original study did not ask "Yes" or "No", but asked subjects on a five point scale. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find out specifically what each point was, other then at the two extremes were "Yes" and "No". For more information, see the infograph/chart below. - See more at: http://www.fearus.org/#sthash.6irCyN5Y.S4xV8zHs.dpuf"
Also this is a survey of 400 or so students in los angeles in [B]1978[/B], aged 14-18.[/QUOTE]
here's a better report then:
[QUOTE]998 men aged 14 - 26 completed a questionnaire about their beliefs related to heterosexual acquaintance rape in 11 scenarios. 316 young men (31.7%) agreed that it was OK for a male to force a female to have sex in one or more of the scenarios.
[URL="http://www.shinesa.org.au/download.cfm?downloadfile=222BD59D-AE6A-448E-CC98CEFA3B3CC641&typename=dmFile&fieldname=filename"]Guys Talk Too: Report of the Young Men and Acquaintance Rape Survey, Family Planning South Australia[/URL][/QUOTE]
automerge/snip
[QUOTE=thisispain;41422946]lyou cant see the irony in telling someone to be practical then taking the absurd limit of what someone says to dismiss someone?
and throwing the concept of "human nature" is a very silly appeal to nature. can you prove its human nature in any way?[/QUOTE]
There's irony in every post where you think you're smarter than the other person, probably plenty of irony in yours too.
Probably the simplest hypothetical would be that near every society has rape as a crime yet where there's not so much control such as in wilderness or in the anarchy after a conflict rape is far more common. It's hardly something society teaches people, it's obvious that a man would have the urge to fuck as often as possible to pass on his seed, society is the one restricting them.
Unless you think that society controls rape and doesn't stop it entirely because they want women to be oppressed.
[QUOTE=elowin;41423026]guys you might as well ignore thisispain, all his/her posts are so stupid it's painful[/QUOTE]
Great thing to say considering he's one of the few to make reasonable arguments here
[QUOTE=elowin;41423026]guys you might as well ignore thisispain, all his/her posts are so stupid it's painful[/QUOTE]
im not stupid im just drunk a lot
[QUOTE=Devodiere;41423047]There's irony in every post where you think you're smarter than the other person, probably plenty of irony in yours too.
Probably the simplest hypothetical would be that near every society has rape as a crime yet where there's not so much control such as in wilderness or in the anarchy after a conflict rape is far more common. It's hardly something society teaches people, it's obvious that a man would have the urge to fuck as often as possible to pass on his seed, society is the one restricting them.
Unless you think that society controls rape and doesn't stop it entirely because they want women to be oppressed.[/QUOTE]
Your last sentence sums it up perfectly.
Our society has managed to clamp down upon and suppress so many instincts and urges. We are barely animals anymore. And yet the natural desire to have sex regardless of consent is considered unstoppable. It is a ridiculous notion that could only originate in a society that, as you say, chooses not to stop rape in order to oppress women.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;41423047]There's irony in every post where you think you're smarter than the other person, probably plenty of irony in yours too.[/QUOTE]
what
[QUOTE=Devodiere;41423047]Probably the simplest hypothetical would be that near every society has rape as a crime yet where there's not so much control such as in wilderness or in the anarchy after a conflict rape is far more common. It's hardly something society teaches people, it's obvious that a man would have the urge to fuck as often as possible to pass on his seed, society is the one restricting them.[/QUOTE]
yeah thats a nice hypothetical but i asked for proof not hypotheticals
[QUOTE=Devodiere;41423047]Unless you think that society controls rape and doesn't stop it entirely because they want women to be oppressed.[/QUOTE]
society doesnt control anything its a concept not a machine
[QUOTE=person11;41423055]Your last sentence sums it up perfectly.
Our society has managed to clamp down upon and suppress so many instincts and urges. We are barely animals anymore. And yet the natural desire to have sex regardless of consent is considered unstoppable. It is a ridiculous notion that could only originate in a society that, as you say, chooses not to stop rape in order to oppress women.[/QUOTE]
so what you're saying is basically.. men have a natural desire to be rapists, and society is okay with that and women are being oppressed?
[QUOTE=thisispain;41423052]im not stupid im just drunk a lot[/QUOTE]
No shit.
This entire argument, the entire thread, and every thread and post about women's rights on this forum would be solved if Sociology 101 could be taught to everyone.
It is amazing how there is so much blatant ignorance or disregard for the field. In the field of Sociology, at least for a majority of those in the field (there are always outliers), terms like Patriarchy and Rape Culture as axiomatic as 2+2 is 4 is in Mathematics.
[QUOTE=MisterMooth;41423037]here's a better report then:[/QUOTE]
I can't find the questionnaire cited in the pdf at all
[QUOTE=goldenbuttocks;41423066]so what you're saying is basically.. men have a natural desire to be rapists, and society is okay with that and women are being oppressed?[/QUOTE]
Yes. All of this is implicit. People have trouble understanding how society could let something so terrible continue because they have trouble understanding how societies form and impose values and norms without any central power structure.
[QUOTE=person11;41423085]Yes. All of this is implicit. People have trouble understanding how society could let something so terrible continue because they have trouble understanding how societies form and impose values and norms without any central power structure.[/QUOTE]
what would your ideal society be like, then?
[QUOTE=Starpluck;41423070]No shit.[/QUOTE]
seriously im like the opposite of christopher hitchens
he drinks and turns into bertrand russel
i drink and i turn into william mcgonagal
[QUOTE=jaegerisacunt;41422813]Its not that I disagree with the sentiment that false rape accusations are relatively rare and being overplayed by the MRA groups, but
the 1-in-6 rape statistic is complete bullshit and is from some very skewed methodology and very bad wording, the author of the study of which also now concedes that she should've been more careful with her wording in some of the survey questioning:
[url]http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9502/sommers.html[/url]
The commonly cited Koss study is ridiculous and manipulative.
Not that you're actually going to read that anyway.[/QUOTE]
well I got the 1 in 6 figure from the [URL="https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/172837.pdf"]national institute of justice[/URL]
[editline]12th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=jaegerisacunt;41423079]I can't find the questionnaire cited in the pdf at all[/QUOTE]
page 99
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/QMsYdqo.png[/IMG]
[QUOTE=goldenbuttocks;41423091]what would your ideal society be like, then?[/QUOTE]
Tough question to answer. The easy answer would be one in which class, gender, sex, race, sexual orientation, nationality, religion based inequality and oppression did not exist. Basically overthrowing the white male straight rich men that have overwhelming power in this society.
The hard part is envisioning that. It is something completely outside of our frame of reference. We were born in the box of our society with its values and norms, and we will always have trouble thinking too clearly outside of it.
It depends on how the girl gets drunk, as far as I'm concerned. We're all aware that alcohol makes people do stupid things. You can't really blame others for your own stupid actions. If a girls gets really drunk and decides to sleep with a guy, that's her own decision. There's nothing nonconsential about that. However, if a guy gets a girl incredibly drunk so he can get her in bed easily, then eventhough there was consent at the time, it was not really consent because the guy was a scumbag and staged it like that.
In this case there is no black & white morality.
[QUOTE=person11;41423103]Tough question to answer. The easy answer would be one in which class, gender, sex, race, sexual orientation, nationality, religion based inequality and oppression did not exist. Basically overthrowing the white male straight rich men that have overwhelming power in this society.
The hard part is envisioning that. It is something completely outside of our frame of reference. We were born in the box of our society with its values and norms, and we will always have trouble thinking too clearly outside of it.[/QUOTE]
The problem with envisioning it is simply because, while certain attitudes towards specific genders and races and ages and classes may be imposed due to society, a bias, no matter how minute, towards one's own self, or others like themselves, is something we can't change. There will always be some form of inequality, simply because we aren't all equal; our best bet is just to balance it out as much as we can.
[QUOTE=person11;41423055]Your last sentence sums it up perfectly.
Our society has managed to clamp down upon and suppress so many instincts and urges. We are barely animals anymore. And yet the natural desire to have sex regardless of consent is considered unstoppable. It is a ridiculous notion that could only originate in a society that, as you say, chooses not to stop rape in order to oppress women.[/QUOTE]
Like what? People still go with so many of their impulses, that's what most crime is, the difference is that rape is a larger, more noticeable incident like murder. We can help the issue, but claiming there's a deliberate effort not to help it is absurd.
[QUOTE=person11;41423074]This entire argument, the entire thread, and every thread and post about women's rights on this forum would be solved if Sociology 101 could be taught to everyone.
It is amazing how there is so much blatant ignorance or disregard for the field. In the field of Sociology, at least for a majority of those in the field (there are always outliers), terms like Patriarchy and Rape Culture as axiomatic as 2+2 is 4 is in Mathematics.[/QUOTE]
Every single one of your posts is "If you were as smart and knew as much as me then you'd agree with me, it's just cos you're stupid" and it's the most childish debate attitude in existence. Hell, one of the first things in sociology is how near impossible it is to create definite causation and you're brave enough to assert that it's the patriarchy's fault we don't completely eliminate rape because they want to oppress women. Even the idea of "If we didn't have the patriarchy" is as hypothetical and ambiguous as "What if we had a true Libertarian society".
I agree with the message this group is trying to send.
I disagree with the way their poster was done.
Edit: Ok, maybe I should elaborate. What I mean is, I agree that it is false rape cases are wrong and honestly should be punished. Ur pretty much ruining someone's life for your own benefit. That's just fucking low.
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