‘Men’s rights’ group defends posters claiming women lie about rape
670 replies, posted
[QUOTE=person11;41423103]Tough question to answer. The easy answer would be one in which class, gender, sex, race, sexual orientation, nationality, religion based inequality and oppression did not exist. Basically overthrowing the white male straight rich men that have overwhelming power in this society.
The hard part is envisioning that. It is something completely outside of our frame of reference. We were born in the box of our society with its values and norms, and we will always have trouble thinking too clearly outside of it.[/QUOTE]
You have trouble envisioning things outside of it, meaning you don't have a lot of frame of reference for what does exist outside of it, about what elements are because of men being in power, what isn't, and how such a different scenario would exist.
Do you see what I'm getting at? Things in sociology are so fluid and ambiguous that claims about the patriarchy being responsible for this and that are hard to prove or even identify, this is why claiming this and that is as hypothetical as claiming Communism would work if we could get it right, your first example sounds a lot like Communism really.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;41423120]Like what? People still go with so many of their impulses, that's what most crime is, the difference is that rape is a larger, more noticeable incident like murder. We can help the issue, but claiming there's a deliberate effort not to help it is absurd.
Every single one of your posts is "If you were as smart and knew as much as me then you'd agree with me, it's just cos you're stupid" and it's the most childish debate attitude in existence. Hell, one of the first things in sociology is how near impossible it is to create definite causation and you're brave enough to assert that it's the patriarchy's fault we don't completely eliminate rape because they want to oppress women. Even the idea of "If we didn't have the patriarchy" is as hypothetical and ambiguous as "What if we had a true Libertarian society".[/QUOTE]
The deliberate effort is not seen through laws or explicit values and norms, but by more implicit means. For example, the fact that society perpetuates the idea that all men are entitled to having a woman, and that men deserve sex if they put enough effort into winning over a woman both contribute to the rape epidemic. Things like the slut/prude dichotomy and fratboys making rape jokes about 'bitches', all of it ties together to create a culture that is more likely to examine the victim than the attacker.
And I have not called anyone stupid. I am just saying that there is a lot to be learned by many, and debating is difficult without the many having learned what they have not. Sociology is a difficult and fluid field, yes, but some ideas are set in stone, almost as strongly as axioms. Patriarchy and the way it helps justify rape is one of the least complicated aspects of the subject. I am sure there are many ways to interpret and argue that fact, but the fact is still fact.
Patriarchy exists. It perpetuates Rape Culture. Rape Culture, in many implicit ways, shifts the focus from rapists to victims, and makes it more likely that the victim is blamed. Rape Culture also decouples rape from other crimes with repeated implicit justifications based on what the victim was wearing, doing, and various other bullshit circumstances.
[editline]12th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Devodiere;41423163]You have trouble envisioning things outside of it, meaning you don't have a lot of frame of reference for what does exist outside of it, about what elements are because of men being in power, what isn't, and how such a different scenario would exist.
Do you see what I'm getting at? Things in sociology are so fluid and ambiguous that claims about the patriarchy being responsible for this and that are hard to prove or even identify, this is why claiming this and that is as hypothetical as claiming Communism would work if we could get it right, your first example sounds a lot like Communism really.[/QUOTE]
Communism is an attempt at reaching the ideal I laid out, and I won't comment on it.
I understand what you mean. Limited frame of reference is the biggest obstacle to identifying elements of our own society. It is not an impossible one to surpass, however, and I am confident that we can link Patriarchy to the mass rape of women by men since the beginning of society.
I agree with most of what you're saying, but here is my question; if we lived in a matriarchal society rather than a patriarchy, would rape culture still exist, but rather with reversed roles? How much of the male persona, simply by nature, contributes to rape culture, and wouldn't a matriarchy that existed exactly as today's patriarchy does, be the same way; rather instead of justifying men raping women, it would justify women raping men? That being said, if you think a matriarchy would be superior to a patriarchy, do you think men are hardwired to be dominating, sexist, rapists when not told otherwise by a society controlled/influenced more primarily through women? (please don't say you think this)
It's not about the evils of a patriarchy, it's about the evils of any societal concept that favors the institutionalized bias of any one group over another.
A part of male violence is natural. This type of violence is not seen as much, if at all in females.
So matriarchy would be slightly better, but would still be inequality and therefore not moral.
[QUOTE=person11;41423291]A part of male violence is natural. This type of violence is not seen as much, if at all in females.
So matriarchy would be slightly better, but would still be inequality and therefore not moral.[/QUOTE]
How do you know the violence is not seen in females because of the patriarchal oppression caused by the society that purports female "weakness" and rape culture? Assuming women flourished in a society that allowed them to pursue their sexual deviancies without shame/tabboo, much like men can in today's society, wouldn't they then have the confidence, desire, etc to purport the same rape culture that we do now, rather in favor of females rather than men? Are you arguing that women are naturally incapable of supporting rape culture against men, assuming they developed in a society that favored them, because they are naturally born more "compassionate?"
What I'm asking is, do men naturally purport a rape culture, or would women, in a matriarchy that is almost impossible to envision, also purport a rape culture the same way we do, but we just can't imagine it because we've oppressed women for so long that we simply can't envision a society where women would have enough authority/influence/majority control to purport a rape culture against men?
[QUOTE=Devodiere;41423120]Like what? People still go with so many of their impulses, that's what most crime is, the difference is that rape is a larger, more noticeable incident like murder. We can help the issue, but claiming there's a deliberate effort not to help it is absurd.[/QUOTE]
that contradicts most things we know about crime
crime almost always has a motive, its never "impulse"
[editline]12th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Loriborn;41423266]That being said, if you think a matriarchy would be superior to a patriarchy, do you think men are hardwired to be dominating, sexist, rapists when not told otherwise by a society controlled/influenced more primarily through women? (please don't say you think this)[/QUOTE]
nah i think we live in a society that rewards that behavior. a society that rewards aggressive gaining of commodity, and part of that is treating women like commodity that needs to be aggressively earned.
rape is almost never about sexuality
[QUOTE=thisispain;41423351]
nah i think we live in a society that rewards that behavior. a society that rewards aggressive gaining of commodity, and part of that is treating women like commodity that needs to be aggressively earned.
rape is almost never about sexuality[/QUOTE]
So a matriarchy [I]would[/I] also reward that behavior, or is just as likely to reward that behavior as a patriarchy is, assuming that matriarchy rewards aggressive gaining of commodity? (which it likely would, unless you argue that women, in a majority state of power/influence/authority, would not naturally reward aggressiveness (which is silly)) Rather, with treating men like a commodity that needs to be aggressively earned, since rape isn't about sexuality.
Assuming I read that right.
[QUOTE=thisispain;41423351]
nah i think we live in a society that rewards that behavior. a society that rewards aggressive gaining of commodity, and part of that is treating women like commodity that needs to be aggressively earned.[/QUOTE]
Thats a more accurate and less outlandish theory than most in this thread, but then, isnt aggressive gaining of commodity something we see not just in society, but in all mammals?
I.E the gain of social dominance/hierarchy through resources and sexual selection
Has there ever been a human society where this behavior wasn't exhibited?
How much of this is nurture, how much of this is nature?
IMO as long as their continues to be social hierarchy based off "commodity" as you say, you're going to continue to see drive in people to gain commodity.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;41423401]So a matriarchy [I]would[/I] also reward that behavior, or is just as likely to reward that behavior as a patriarchy is, assuming that matriarchy rewards aggressive gaining of commodity? (which it likely would, unless you argue that women, in a majority state of power/influence/authority, would not naturally reward aggressiveness (which is silly)) Rather, with treating men like a commodity that needs to be aggressively earned, since rape isn't about sexuality.
Assuming I read that right.[/QUOTE]
i dont know id be making a lot of assumptions there
but yeah if i get your question right, yes i do think women are capable of the same absolute cruelty as men. i dont think theyre the "fairer sex" or some bullshit like that
[QUOTE=jaegerisacunt;41423413]as long as their continues to be social hierarchy based off "commodity" as you say, you're going to continue to see drive in people to gain commodity.[/QUOTE]
This is what I'm basically saying. As long as humans want things, there will be rape. Regardless of whether it's a patriarchy or a matriarchy, there will be a bias in any way against the opposite gender of those in majority control.
[QUOTE=thisispain;41423427]i dont know id be making a lot of assumptions there
but yeah if i get your question right, yes i do think women are capable of the same absolute cruelty as men. i dont think theyre the "fairer sex" or some bullshit like that[/QUOTE]
(This is response to both quotes really) Rape culture would exist in a matriarchy just as it does a patriarchy, just with reversed gender roles; the problem isn't a patriarchy, it's the human tendency to have bias towards something, and then institutionalize that bias.
That's my problem with arguing against the patriarchy, because that isn't the problem, just a branch of a much deeper, and much less specific problem with human prejudice that would happen regardless of which gender was in majority influence of a society.
[QUOTE=Captain James;41422586]Teach men not to rape is as ignorant and offensive as teach women not be sluts.
Rape is bad, false accusations are bad.
[/QUOTE]
nnothing wrong with being a "slut". being a rapist is very wrong.
I don't see whats the big deal about this nor how this could be offensive.
[QUOTE=Aspen;41422463]here we go
sad neckbeard 'nice guy' MRA's vs members of the feminist movement already arguing
welcome to sensationalist headlines
god damn i was hoping we can have a logical discussion or something but man
was i wrong[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://facepunch.com/image.php?u=373552&dateline=1373610943[/IMG]
[QUOTE=sp00ks;41423449]nnothing wrong with being a "slut". being a rapist is very wrong.[/QUOTE]
I think he worded it badly, I think what he was trying to say is its as offensive to suggest that men need to be taught not to rape as it is to suggest that women need to be taught not to be sluts.
[QUOTE=jaegerisacunt;41423413]Thats a more accurate and less outlandish theory than most in this thread, but then, isnt aggressive gaining of commodity something we see not just in society, but in all mammals?[/QUOTE]
no because not all mammals commodify things. im talking about gaining of commodity in the most marxist of terms. as far as i am aware humans are the only species that attribute value to things. other mammals dont understand value
[QUOTE=jaegerisacunt;41423413]Has there ever been a human society where this behavior wasn't exhibited?[/QUOTE]
i dont think its a surprise that the more wealth equality and social welfare there is the more equal rights and sexual freedoms there are. youll find this to be consistent throughout the world.
[QUOTE=person11;41423218]The deliberate effort is not seen through laws or explicit values and norms, but by more implicit means. For example, the fact that society perpetuates the idea that all men are entitled to having a woman, and that men deserve sex if they put enough effort into winning over a woman both contribute to the rape epidemic. Things like the slut/prude dichotomy and fratboys making rape jokes about 'bitches', all of it ties together to create a culture that is more likely to examine the victim than the attacker.
And I have not called anyone stupid. I am just saying that there is a lot to be learned by many, and debating is difficult without the many having learned what they have not. Sociology is a difficult and fluid field, yes, but some ideas are set in stone, almost as strongly as axioms. Patriarchy and the way it helps justify rape is one of the least complicated aspects of the subject. I am sure there are many ways to interpret and argue that fact, but the fact is still fact.
Patriarchy exists. It perpetuates Rape Culture. Rape Culture, in many implicit ways, shifts the focus from rapists to victims, and makes it more likely that the victim is blamed. Rape Culture also decouples rape from other crimes with repeated implicit justifications based on what the victim was wearing, doing, and various other bullshit circumstances.[/quote]
The issue here is that Patriarchy has a definition, a power system controlled mostly by men and/or valuing male attributes and men over female attributes and women, and you really stretch to claim disparate issues like those are all under the one banner. The result is that you either lose the definition of Patriarchy and just use it as a catchall for things you don't like or consider sexist, or you make stupid assumptions and look for the solution to problems in things like "eradicating the patriarchy" rather than real solutions. This showed in your first post when rather than accepting that a lack of education is a big problem, you felt the need to chime in that the patriarchy inflamed it when such an abstract concept is hardly relevant to any real solutions.
I don't argue that Patriarchy or rape culture doesn't exist, it exists in various forms and with varying expressions, but it is an abstract concept with no real place in many debates. Rather than crying about rape culture, do you what should be doing and analyse that rape culture, break it down into smaller parts, and focus on them rather than the whole. And for fucks sake, don't act as if benign things like the worst of society making jokes and the idea that working hard results in what you want is the cause of it, because the first idea upon failure isn't to steal in any other case.
[quote]Communism is an attempt at reaching the ideal I laid out, and I won't comment on it.
I understand what you mean. Limited frame of reference is the biggest obstacle to identifying elements of our own society. It is not an impossible one to surpass, however, and I am confident that we can link Patriarchy to the mass rape of women by men since the beginning of society.[/QUOTE]
I mentioned communism because Marx thought that Capitalism and class was the biggest cause of oppression of the working classes, and when put into practice how well they got rid of oppression without those devices. Another thing in sociology is that there's almost never one root cause of an issue, it's a compound of everything, and talking about removing various elements from society is always theoretical, and such things rarely work out in practice. Base your ideas upon the empirical and don't make such vague assumptions, things are never simple.
[QUOTE=thisispain;41423351]that contradicts most things we know about crime
crime almost always has a motive, its never "impulse"[/QUOTE]
Crime of passion along with the urge to fulfil fantasies and get pleasure from it? The urge itself puts a motive with the pleasure induced from it.
'Mens rights' is a joke
[QUOTE=Devodiere;41423541]
I mentioned communism because Marx thought that Capitalism and class was the biggest cause of oppression of the working classes[/QUOTE]
thats absolutely not true.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;41423541]Crime of passion along with the urge to fulfil fantasies and get pleasure from it? The urge itself puts a motive with the pleasure induced from it.[/QUOTE]
weve moved beyond the simplistic freudian notions of the pleasure drive. most crime is done because of circumstances that necessitated them. murder unless committed by a strong sadist is done due to mental disorder, frustration, lack of control, or because it accomplishes an objective.
not many murderers enjoy killing.
[QUOTE=thisispain;41423572]thats absolutely not true.[/quote]
Well you get the idea, come up with all these theoreticals about getting rid of stuff thinking it'd be ideal, but it's always shit.
[quote]weve moved beyond the simplistic freudian notions of the pleasure drive. most crime is done because of circumstances that necessitated them. murder unless committed by a strong sadist is done due to mental disorder, frustration, lack of control, or because it accomplishes an objective.
not many murderers enjoy killing.[/QUOTE]
I was talking about the enjoyment from rape and dominating another, not murder. What other motive would there be for spiking someone's drink than pleasure?
[QUOTE=Devodiere;41423634]
I was talking about the enjoyment from rape and dominating another, not murder. What other motive would there be for spiking someone's drink than pleasure?[/QUOTE]
not all rapists are sadistic tho. some are angry towards their victim and some are committing rape in order to compensate for their feelings of inadequacy.
id be willing to bet most rapists do not enjoy the act beyond the physical stimulation it might provide.
[QUOTE=thisispain;41423678]not all rapists are sadistic tho. some are angry towards their victim and some are committing rape in order to compensate for their feelings of inadequacy.
id be willing to bet most rapists do not enjoy the act beyond the physical stimulation it might provide.[/QUOTE]
When a lot of rape is with someone they know who's forced into it or when they're just too drunk to give consent there's not much reason other than getting a fuck.
But ok we've established that there's a lot of different motives for rape, what was this about again? Was it because I used the term impulse to describe doing something without properly evaluating the situation and going against better judgement?
I think that people need to stop viewing men's rights as trying to REMOVE women's rights, some laws are sexists outright to either sex for example lack of abortion rights to females meaning they don't have control of their body and the fact that if two drunk people have sex then the man is automatically able to be viably accused of rape. (In the U.K)
I have to admit I don't see anything terribly wrong with the posters. A bit tasteless in some regards, but overall?
They don't degrade rape itself, they also try to set up a force distinction and they generally seem to imply volition.
This isn't good. By making women afraid to report rape, we're going to have a higher percentage of unreported rapes.
[QUOTE=Fish_poke;41422329]People lie about rape, but this isn't generally considered lying. Consent comes from a clear state of mind, which drunk people are not in in the slightest.[/QUOTE]
I never really understood that mentality though. If you get behind the wheel and manage to kill a family of five you're held liable. But god forbid you make the stupid decision to have a one night stand.
[QUOTE=jaegerisacunt;41423461]I think he worded it badly, I think what he was trying to say is its as offensive to suggest that men need to be taught not to rape as it is to suggest that women need to be taught not to be sluts.[/QUOTE]
but they're not the same because one is totally okay, and one is not.
I've talked with women who even share this viewpoint. :|
"Women who drink aren't RESPONSIBLE for their actions" ?
Women who drink are responsible for their own fucking actions, because they made the fucking decision to drink.
The poster might as well have said "Drink Responsibly"
The poster doesn't say anything about being drunk, just a one night stand?
[img]http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/01/rape_infographic.jpg[/img]
[url]http://theenlivenproject.com/the-truth-about-false-accusation/[/url]
The two little black men in the bottom right hand corner are the amount of men falsely accused. Only 2% of all rape accusations are false. Feminists are aware of this, and they know that sociopathic women who falsely report are only propagating rape culture by manipulating rape for their own means. No one likes a false accusation.
But it's not a social issue the same way that rape is. Just look at that fucking infograph - so many rapists get way with their crimes.
Either way, most MRAs could care less about falsely accused/male rape victims. Many of them tout the two as poster boys for anti-feminism, without actually caring how their lives were affected.
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