‘Men’s rights’ group defends posters claiming women lie about rape
670 replies, posted
It's a pretty difficult thing because it (usually) only happens between 2 people behind closed doors
[QUOTE=Reimu;41425317][IMG]http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/01/rape_infographic.jpg[/IMG]
[URL]http://theenlivenproject.com/the-truth-about-false-accusation/[/URL]
The two little black men in the bottom right hand corner are the amount of men falsely accused. Only 2% of all rape accusations are false. Feminists are aware of this, and they know that sociopathic women who falsely report are only propagating rape culture by manipulating rape for their own means. No one likes a false accusation.
But it's not a social issue the same way that rape is. Just look at that fucking infograph - so many rapists get way with their crimes.
Either way, most MRAs could care less about falsely accused/male rape victims. Many of them tout the two as poster boys for anti-feminism, without actually caring how their lives were affected.[/QUOTE]
From the article “when more methodologically rigorous research has been conducted, estimates for the percentage of false reports begin to converge around 2-8%.”. Plus number of claims proven to be false (by witness testimony, recording, etc) is not equal to number of false claims. You can't tell how many claims that never made it to court were false.
Not saying that false rape claims are a plague or something but they aren't as rare as you're trying to make them.
[QUOTE=EpikEnvy2.0;41422442]"they have a penis they don't have rights!"[/QUOTE]
sigh
[editline]12th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Proj3ct_ZeRo;41422459]I know there is a real problem with women making false rape allegations undermining real cases and jailing innocent men,[/QUOTE]
hardly
I mean there are probably a few isolated cases but it's not an actual problem like sexual assaults committed by men
[editline]12th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=lekkimsm;41425270]"Women who drink aren't RESPONSIBLE for their actions" ?
Women who drink are responsible for their own fucking actions, because they made the fucking decision to drink.[/QUOTE]
Drinking is a fun activity to do with friends. Yes, you have a responsibility to not get so smashed you can't think straight if maintaining a certain level of lucidity is required to get home or something, but you should be free to get drunk (which isn't hurting anyone else) without fear of being took advantage of.
[QUOTE=Generic Monk;41425570]Drinking is a fun activity to do with friends. Yes, you have a responsibility to not get so smashed you can't think straight if maintaining a certain level of lucidity is required to get home or something, but you should be free to get drunk (which isn't hurting anyone else) without fear of being took advantage of.[/QUOTE]
OK, sure, but with proper precautions how many of these "rape" cases involving alcohol could be prevented? the argument there goes both ways. yeah, you should have every right to have as much fun as you want to, but this shouldn't be at the risk of your own personal safety.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41425317][img]http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/01/rape_infographic.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Hold on a second, of those "faced trial" units how many of those were either found not guilty (and hence cleared) or had their complaint withdrawn (implying the inverse) before the trial? This seems to take "guilty until proven innocent" to another level, unless the infographic is just being sensationalist when it comes to that top-right corner (and the cites in the source are kind of confusing)
[QUOTE=Protocol7;41425636]OK, sure, but with proper precautions how many of these "rape" cases involving alcohol could be prevented? the argument there goes both ways. yeah, you should have every right to have as much fun as you want to, but this shouldn't be at the risk of your own personal safety.[/QUOTE]
[h2]you shouldn't be at risk of indiscriminate sexual assault in a first world country[/h2]
coercing someone into sexual intercourse is deplorable and should just not happen - people should not have to be afraid of someone assaulting them or something if they drink too much
[QUOTE=Generic Monk;41425775][h2]you shouldn't be at risk of indiscriminate sexual assault in a first world country[/h2]
coercing someone into sexual intercourse is deplorable and should just not happen - people should not have to be afraid of someone assaulting them or something if they drink too much[/QUOTE]
ok, that's fucking great
now, welcome to the real world where [h2]what should be and what is aren't ever going to be the same thing, even in a first world country[/h2]
as much as I'd love for women to not be at risk when they drink, it's simply inconceivable that it will ever stop being a problem.
the wording isn't unclear on it at all. it's like people read every other word then get mad when they think they understand the message
[QUOTE=Generic Monk;41425775][h2]you shouldn't be at risk of indiscriminate sexual assault in a first world country[/h2]
coercing someone into sexual intercourse is deplorable and should just not happen - people should not have to be afraid of someone assaulting them or something if they drink too much[/QUOTE]
Nobody should be afraid of getting all their stuff taken from their house but you don't take the risk and you lock your door anyway.
Nobody should be afraid of getting mugged or beaten but you don't take the risk and you avoid dark alleys and carry pepper spray anyway.
Everybody knows there are men who just wait for an opportunity to take advantage of a drunk girl. Why ignore the danger? Of course it shouldn't happen but as long as it does, take precautions.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;41426201]Nobody should be afraid of getting all their stuff taken from their house but you don't take the risk and you lock your door anyway.
Nobody should be afraid of getting mugged or beaten but you don't take the risk and you avoid dark alleys and carry pepper spray anyway.
Everybody knows there are men who just wait for an opportunity to take advantage of a drunk girl. Why ignore the danger? Of course it shouldn't happen but as long as it does, take precautions.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Yeah, in a perfect world, women shouldn't have to fear getting sexually assaulted, but if you think this is [I]at all[/I] attainable, you're fucking delusional. Especially where alcohol is involved, the judgment of both parties is clouded more often than not. Shit happens. Not getting shitfaced is the most obvious and most effective solution to stopping alcohol-related "rape."
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;41425550]From the article “when more methodologically rigorous research has been conducted, estimates for the percentage of false reports begin to converge around 2-8%.”. Plus number of claims proven to be false (by witness testimony, recording, etc) is not equal to number of false claims. You can't tell how many claims that never made it to court were false.
Not saying that false rape claims are a plague or something but they aren't as rare as you're trying to make them.[/QUOTE]
Still, if 8% is the most liberal estimate, that's still significantly low. The off-hand percentage is usually 5%. Not to mention, many rape claims that fall within that 2%-8% may actually be true, but are listed as "false" or "unfounded" because investigators may be unable to clearly pinpoint whether rape happened or not (i.e. a husband rapes his wife in their bedroom. There's only two parties present, and the bias within our society suggests that rape didn't happen if the two had a former sexual history. So investigators don't know what to do. ). This is the case with the FBI, which rests at 8%.
Not to mention, many areas suffer from investigative bias where police do not take rape reports seriously. Therefore, allegations may be reported as false when a further investigation might be necessary.
[QUOTE=leach139;41425752]Hold on a second, of those "faced trial" units how many of those were either found not guilty (and hence cleared) or had their complaint withdrawn (implying the inverse) before the trial? This seems to take "guilty until proven innocent" to another level, unless the infographic is just being sensationalist when it comes to that top-right corner (and the cites in the source are kind of confusing)[/QUOTE]
"Faced trial" and "not guilty" are confusing. An actual rapist could be found not guilty because there's not enough evidence that rape happened. As in the case above, if there's a situation of he-said she-said, then a jury might rule that the perpetrator is not guilty even though he might have actually committed rape. As this source points out: [url]http://www.uky.edu/CRVAW/files/TopTen/07_Rape_Prosecution.pdf[/url]
[quote]Prosecutors often only take cases they can win, for rape cases many factors may be considered. Often cases are unwittingly approached with rape myths and stereotypes about race, class, gender and the deservingness of rape victims.
Research shows that even when charges are filed, the legal system often downgrades or drops felony rape charges for guilty pleas on other crimes. This often does not feel like justice for survivors since the offender never has to admit or acknowledge that his actions were rape. [/quote]
So situations arise where a rapist might be cleared of rape in exchange for a guilty plea on another crime. Therefore, they might be tried for rape, but never charged as a rapist per say.
[editline]12th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;41426201]Nobody should be afraid of getting all their stuff taken from their house but you don't take the risk and you lock your door anyway.
Nobody should be afraid of getting mugged or beaten but you don't take the risk and you avoid dark alleys and carry pepper spray anyway.
Everybody knows there are men who just wait for an opportunity to take advantage of a drunk girl. Why ignore the danger? Of course it shouldn't happen but as long as it does, take precautions.[/QUOTE]
The problem arises when people think that "precautions" are the only way to stop rape. It creates a social situation where blame rests on the victim's shoulders, because they are the ones who should not be doing x or y.
In reality, as a society we should be moving towards a superior justice system and social hierarchy which takes rape seriously by combating rape culture. Which includes ending such myths as "women shouldn't dress a certain way," "acting slutty is asking for rape," "if you didn't want to be raped then you shouldn't have gotten smashed," etc. Each of those blame the victim, as if the perp is some phantom force and not a monster.
[editline]12th July 2013[/editline]
*is some phantom force and not a real human being.
(The edit screen is freezing on me, w/e)
I think these posters really do a good job of summarizing the mens rights movement. They find an issue - not a major issue, or even a disproportionately common one, but still a valid issue nonetheless - assume it's gender-specific and biased against men, and approach it in a way that puts anti-feminism first (parodying an anti-rape campaign is downright vindictive) and men last.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;41426428]I think these posters really do a good job of summarizing the mens rights movement. They find an issue - not a major issue, or even a disproportionately common one, but still a valid issue nonetheless - assume it's gender-specific and biased against men, and approach it in a way that puts anti-feminism first (parodying an anti-rape campaign is downright vindictive) and men last.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. MRAs don't care so much about gender-equality as they do about combating feminism. Most MRAs have barely any knowledge on sociology; and the ones who do seem to blindly omit certain sociological concepts, such as privilege or inherited oppression.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41426339]Still, if 8% is the most liberal estimate, that's still significantly low. The off-hand percentage is usually 5%. Not to mention, many rape claims that fall within that 2%-8% may actually be true, but are listed as "false" or "unfounded" because investigators may be unable to clearly pinpoint whether rape happened or not (i.e. a husband rapes his wife in their bedroom. There's only two parties present, and the bias within our society suggests that rape didn't happen if the two had a former sexual history. So investigators don't know what to do. ). This is the case with the FBI, which rests at 8%.
Not to mention, many areas suffer from investigative bias where police do not take rape reports seriously. Therefore, allegations may be reported as false when a further investigation might be necessary.[/QUOTE]
2 things.
First, when there's not enough evidence and the accused is found not guilty it doesn't mean the claim is considered a false claim. Otherwise all the claims where someone was reported but not convicted would be taken as false claims and it would be like 90% of false claims. Claim is considered false when there's evidence proving that the rape didn't happen not when there isn't enough evidence to prove that it happened.
Second ,like I said earlier you don't know how many claims that never made it to court were false.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41426339]The problem arises when people think that "precautions" are the only way to stop rape. It creates a social situation where blame rests on the victim's shoulders, because they are the ones who should not be doing x or y.
In reality, as a society we should be moving towards a superior justice system and social hierarchy which takes rape seriously by combating rape culture. Which includes ending such myths as "women shouldn't dress a certain way," "acting slutty is asking for rape," "if you didn't want to be raped then you shouldn't have gotten smashed," etc. Each of those blame the victim, as if the perp is some phantom force and not a real human being.[/QUOTE]
Personal safety is your own responsibility. If you create situation where you increase chances of getting hurt it's your fault. For increasing the danger not for getting hurt. Only the rapist is to blame for rape. A woman might be to blame for putting herself in danger.
It's really easy. There are men in dark alleys who'll mug me or beat me up for no reason. I avoid those alleys or I have something to defend myself with.
There are men in clubs who just wait for an opportunity to take advantage of a drunk girl. Don't get smashed with strangers or have someone who you trust and who will take care of you.
Otherwise you are to blame for ignoring the danger. The perp is still the only responsible one for what he did, but you could have avoided it. Do yourself a favor.
A girl I dated had shared an experience with me a while back about how she had participated in a threesome but thought someone spiked her drink. Now, because I knew her well and through the nonchalant way she had told the story I knew it was bullshit. So my instant response was, "No they didn't; what happened was you drank too much, got a little too comfortable and found yourself in a situation where you were experimenting." To which she couldn't really respond with nothing more than, "Yeah, it wasn't my proudest moment."
I'm not going to say all women that claim rape after a night of partying are liars or exaggerating things; but I can't help but assume there is a percentage the throws down the rape card to avoid taking responsibility and feeling shameful for letting themselves get a little out of control.
As I said on the previous page; we hold people who drink then drive and commit accidental manslaughter accountable for their actions, why can't women take responsibility for their own safety when drinking?
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;41422343]"don't be that girl"? victim blaming HQ 2013. that literally disgusts me
[editline]12th July 2013[/editline]
if you signed a contract when incredibly drunk would you be like "yeah its okay i consented to it" lol ridiculous[/QUOTE]
that happens both ways
and what if both parties are just too damn drunk.
I mean, hell, some women do lie about rape, but it's not like lying about rape is as serious as the fact that there are people committing rape in the first place
I think one of the problems with the way we as a society treat rape is the way we handle false rape accusations.
I'm not going to use genders (because let's be honest, gender [I]should[/I] be irrelevant).
The problem is, if someone accuses someone else of raping them, that person now faces a barrage of anger, resentment, and fear. They may lose their job, their family and friends may disown them, and they may receive harassment and threats from the public. People's lives have been ruined because they've been accused of something they never did.
We're willing to punish rapists for the horrible actions they do to others, but how come it seems that people who put forward false accusations seldom see punishement? After all, they've ruined someone's life.
[QUOTE=lekkimsm;41425270]"Women who drink aren't RESPONSIBLE for their actions" ?
Women who drink are responsible for their own fucking actions, because they made the fucking decision to drink.[/QUOTE]
Drivers that get in accidents shouldn't be treated because they knew what they were getting into when they set out on the road.
[QUOTE]Women who drink are not responsible for their actions… especially when alcohol is involved[/QUOTE]
Well then don't get drunk at a party or club where there's a bunch of horny men looking for a one night stand. It's your fault if you put yourself into a mature, adult environment and get drunk. It is a decision, not something you have to do.
[QUOTE=cqbcat;41427937]Well then don't get drunk at a party or club where there's a bunch of horny men looking for a one night stand. It's your fault if you put yourself into a mature, adult environment and get drunk. It is a decision, not something you have to do.[/QUOTE]
yeah and women who wear revealing clothes are asking for it as well. Its their fault they put themselves into a ~mature, adult enviroment full of horny men~. Its a decision, not something they have to do.
[QUOTE=cqbcat;41427937]Well then don't get drunk at a party or club where there's a bunch of horny men looking for a one night stand. It's your fault if you put yourself into a mature, adult environment and get drunk. It is a decision, not something you have to do.[/QUOTE]
no i'd say it's more the fault of the person who rapes other people
[QUOTE=cqbcat;41427937]Well then don't get drunk at a party or club where there's a bunch of horny men looking for a one night stand. It's your fault if you put yourself into a mature, adult environment and get drunk. It is a decision, not something you have to do.[/QUOTE]
Victim blaming solves nothing. Women should take precautions because we don't live in an ideal world but they are not at fault if they get raped.
[QUOTE=cqbcat;41427937]Well then don't get drunk at a party or club where there's a bunch of horny men looking for a one night stand. It's your fault if you put yourself into a mature, adult environment and get drunk. It is a decision, not something you have to do.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it's not those "bunch of horny men's" fault. It's the woman's fault of course; if she never set foot in that party or club, she never would've been raped. If you're a woman, you just have to make these precautions. It's the only way to ensure that you don't get raped.
Here's a novel idea - how about predators stop preying on drunk women for sex? How about men/women respect that drunk people cannot think clearly? If a person is drunk, they are not in a proper state of mind. How can you hold someone accountable for something so intimate and complex as sexuality, when they can barely walk straight?
Rapists lie and manipulate when they're sober so they appear trustworthy. Then, they get a woman into an intoxicated state where she's so smashed that she struggles to say no. This is the exact same reason why certain fraternities host "women drink free" parties. Many frats use this in order to lure women in and get them smashed; or, in some cases, roofie their drinks.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;41427285]I mean, hell, some women do lie about rape, but it's not like lying about rape is as serious as the fact that there are people committing rape in the first place[/QUOTE]
You're right, but lying about rape (or any kind of abuse/assault, really) is certainly not a trivial problem. When someone can have their life ruined purely by being [I]accused[/I] of rape, that's not something we should treat lightly.
The fact that rape occurs IS the core issue, but false claims hurts both sides in a big way.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41428185]Yeah, it's not those "bunch of horny men's" fault.[/QUOTE]
Nobody is saying that, why are you people not understanding it?
A woman who gets shitfaced with strangers and gets raped isn't to blame for rape. The rapists are. She is however to blame for putting herself in a situation where it's likely to happen.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41428185] It's the woman's fault of course; if she never set foot in that party or club, she never would've been raped. If you're a woman, you just have to make these precautions. It's the only way to ensure that you don't get raped.[/QUOTE]
I'm a guy and I don't get completely wasted with strangers or in clubs where I can't really tell what's gonna happen to me. It's common sense. In my case I might wake up beaten up or with my wallet stolen, women can have it much worse.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41428185]Here's a novel idea - how about predators stop preying on drunk women for sex? How about men/women respect that drunk people cannot think clearly?[/QUOTE]
How about people don't hurt each other at all? Lets get rid of the police.
The reality is that it does happen and as long as it does, take precautions. You can't just pretend that there are not men just waiting for girls to get drunk.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41428185] If a person is drunk, they are not in a proper state of mind. How can you hold someone accountable for something so intimate and complex as sexuality, when they can barely walk straight?
[/QUOTE]
Unless the alcohol was forced down your throat you chose yourself to be drunk. It was your decision. Same goes for where and with who you were drinking. Anticipate what might happen.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41428185]
Rapists lie and manipulate when they're sober so they appear trustworthy. Then, they get a woman into an intoxicated state where she's so smashed that she struggles to say no. This is the exact same reason why certain fraternities host "women drink free" parties. Many frats use this in order to lure women in and get them smashed; or, in some cases, roofie their drinks.[/QUOTE]
And in your head it's a perfectly good idea for women to go to the "women drink free" party and get shitfaced right?
[QUOTE=Elv02;41427534]I think one of the problems with the way we as a society treat rape is the way we handle false rape accusations.
I'm not going to use genders (because let's be honest, gender [I]should[/I] be irrelevant).
The problem is, if someone accuses someone else of raping them, that person now faces a barrage of anger, resentment, and fear. They may lose their job, their family and friends may disown them, and they may receive harassment and threats from the public. People's lives have been ruined because they've been accused of something they never did.
We're willing to punish rapists for the horrible actions they do to others, but how come it seems that people who put forward false accusations seldom see punishement? After all, they've ruined someone's life.[/QUOTE]
The problem really is that people treat false rape accusations and actual rape and abuse as part of the same issue titled "RAPE:". And so when someone mentions false rape accusations, they're immediately silenced as "Hey what the fuck, how many people struggle after being falsely accused compared to rape victims! It is irrelevant!".
Now I'm not going to side with MRA or anything of that sort, after all they're also the ones who bring "false accusations" issue into "rape category". There's a world of diffirence, and the only thing comparable is the level of damage done: the nastiest thing about rape is that it damages victims mind and social connections. Same thing goes for false rape accusation victims. Social isolation, stigma.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;41428405]A woman wgo gets shitfaced with strangers and gets raped isn't to blame for rape. The rapists are. She is however to blame for putting herself in a situation where it's likely to happen.[/QUOTE]
So the women should share a little part of the blame for the rape?
I mean, she did just put herself in the situation.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;41428433]So the women should share a little part of the blame for the rape?
I mean, she did just put herself in the situation.[/QUOTE]
Are you stupid or something? Those are 2 separate things. It even says so in what you've just quoted. Why do you refuse to understand that not taking precautions and getting hurt by others are 2 different things? Should I use some examples?
Is a person who didn't lock their car partially responsible for having it stolen?
Is a person choosing to walk down a dark alley partially responsible for getting mugged?
No. They are responsible for making it more likely to happen but only the perpetrators are to blame for the actual act.
So women who get drunk/wear ~slutty clothing~ are partially responsible for making the rape happen.
Thats a pretty fucked up thing to say m8
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